Blowback vs Recoil operated: A tutorial

If all elements are equal.

But they are not equal.

John
Does the bullet resist the barrel going backward or does the barrel resist the bullet going forward? Both! In equal proportions. Friction force acts on both things equally. Rifling, smoothbore, bullet diameter doesn’t matter because while the forces may vary they always act equally.
 
Does the bullet resist the barrel going backward or does the barrel resist the bullet going forward? Both! In equal proportions. Friction force acts on both things equally. Rifling, smoothbore, bullet diameter doesn’t matter because while the forces may vary they always act equally.
Correct, here's the rub.

The bullet weight is less than the bolt carrier group (BCG), so guess what moves first?

The bullet does

The retardation of the BCG is directly related to weight and recoil spring strength

If the BCG and recoil spring strength equals the bullet weight then yes, both would move equally based on the force applied. But that's not true the BCG and spring strength is higher than the bullet weight.

This is why in all firearms bullet weight plays a key part in the cycle speed of a firearm.

John
 
I love reading these discussions. I have a question.

What pistols have been made with gas delay blowback?

The H&K p7 and the Laugo arms alien?
 
Does the bullet resist the barrel going backward or does the barrel resist the bullet going forward? Both! In equal proportions.
The forces are analyzed relative to each one of the bodies in motion. Force is a vector with a direction and a magnitude, and a body to which it applies. So, the force vector for the friction on the bullet is a relatively short vector pointing toward the chooter. By the time the slide moves, the bullet is gone, so the friction vector inside the barrel is gone as well.

Ok, not exactly, but almost.
 
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This is why in all firearms bullet weight plays a key part in the cycle speed of a firearm.
Well...A key part, but other factors are in play. A lighter bullet can cause a slide to cycle faster in recoil.

It's about force and specifically, force requirements and velocities.

If the force requirement to accelerate a 200 grain bullet to 900 fps is greater than that required to accelerate a 230 grain bullet to 800 fps, higher force is imposed on the slide/bolt for that 200 grain bullet. It won't make any difference in the unlocking or breech opening in a locked breech pistol because whatever happens at one end happens at the other end. The bullet will still exit at right around 1/10th inch of slide travel, give or take a couple thou.
 
Yes, and already noted.

Whatever frictional resistance the barrel offers to the bullet, the bullet offers to the barrel, and whatever resists the barrel's backward movement resists the slide's backward movement.

So, the force vector for the friction on the bullet is a relatively short vector pointing toward the chooter.
That's why it's called "Short" recoil operated.
By the time the slide moves, the bullet is gone, so the friction vector inside the barrel is gone as well.
Nope. If the slide waits for the bullet to exit before it moves, it won't move. This was the basis for calling out Kuhnhausen for his "Balanced Thrust Vector" description of operation.

The slide starts to move when the bullet starts to move after the small amount of headspace is taken up. Bullet exit occurs at nominally 1/10th inch of slide travel, which means that the slide is moving and pulling on the barrel against the bullet's frictional resistance while the bullet is headed for the muzzle.
 
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.as to recoil of the 1911 with .45 acp ammo...the Vast majority of felt recoil is from the reciprocating mass of the slide popping back and forth.
The majority of felt recoil comes from the compression of the spring. In this video, you'll notice not only a distinct lack of muzzle flip, but also a slower movement of the pistol overall.

The ammunition was Sellier and Bellot 230 hardball. If memorty serves me, Hunter clocked that particular lot at right around 820 fps.

Sometimes the video jumps forward, so you may need to back it up to the beginning.

 
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Well, nothing is gonna work if your barrel can't handle the pressure you are working with.

Here: assume the barrel and breach can handle infinite pressure and seal perfectly. Assume that when you pull the trigger the bullet gets stuck almost immediately.

There will be almost no recoil and the slide will not come back.
First my qualifying statement. I’m not a physicist.

Doesn’t the ignition of powder start a reaction that creates energy, i.e. the expanding of gases at a very rapid pace. Energy is like water, it will follow the path of least resistance.

My question or statement however you view it. Since the barrel in your hypothetical scenario is completely sealed and strong enough to handle the pressures. The energy must go somewhere. Thus pushing the slide reward to release the energy would be the path of least resistance.
 
The energy must go somewhere. Thus pushing the slide reward to release the energy would be the path of least resistance.
Due to its mass, and outside forces acting on it, the slide actually presents the greater resistance. That's why the bullet outruns it.

Force in a gun barrel doesn't act in one direction. It acts in all directions at once. Force forward is force backward. Whatever force is imposed on the bullet is imposed on the slide equally.
 
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The energy must go somewhere. Thus pushing the slide reward to release the energy would be the path of least resistance.

The answer is Mass. The bullet has less mass so it accelerates faster than the slide. The slide takes a little more time to start accelerating.

John got to it before I did
 
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Due to its mass, and outside forces acting on it, the slide actually presents the greater resistance. That's why the bullet outruns it.

Force doesn't act in one direction. It acts in all directions at once. Force forward is force backward. Whatever force is imposed on the bullet is imposed on the slide equally.
Correct. But in his hypothetical scenario, he said that the barrel can handle the pressure and is completely sealed. And at the time of pulling the trigger the bullet stuck almost immediately. I understood that to mean no gasses could escape through the barrel. But since the slide was not impeded from movement, would the forces push the slide rearward? Letting the gasses/energy escape?
 
The answer is Mass. The bullet has less mass so it accelerates faster than the slide. The slide takes a little more time to start accelerating.

John got to it before I did
Correct. I understand it if the barrel is not obstructed like in his scenario. He said that if the barrel were sealed and the bullet stopped almost immediately the slide would not move either. This is what I’m asking about.
 
. But since the slide was not impeded from movement, would the forces push the slide rearward?
In a locked breech arm, if the bullet is completely impeded...stopped...by the barrel, the slide IS impeded. In order for the slide to move backward, the barrel has to be able to move backward. Stop any and all backward barrel movement, and the slide can't move.
 
Correct. I understand it if the barrel is not obstructed like in his scenario. He said that if the barrel were sealed and the bullet stopped almost immediately the slide would not move either. This is what I’m asking about.
Thats a closed system, so all forces are acting equally in all directions.

A contained explosion.
 
In a locked breech arm, if the bullet is completely impeded...stopped...by the barrel, the slide IS impeded. In order for the slide to move backward, the barrel has to be able to move backward. Stop any and all backward barrel movement, and the slide can't move.
Cool thank you.

Next, In a blow back system, the slide is not locked and would be free to move?
 
Next, In a blow back system, the slide is not locked and would be free to move?
Yes., but due to its mass and outside forces, it would still present a greater resistance in normal operation. Block all bullet movement, and the slide is the path of least resistance.
 
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The slide starts to move when the bullet starts to move after the small amount of headspace is taken up.
Right, that's when the slide acquires a force vector that will make it move. Prior to that, the force vector is on the brass, making it move.

Thanks for correcting my "close enough" assessment.

You are such a "scientist"!
 
Correct, here's the rub.

The bullet weight is less than the bolt carrier group (BCG), so guess what moves first?

The bullet does

The retardation of the BCG is directly related to weight and recoil spring strength

If the BCG and recoil spring strength equals the bullet weight then yes, both would move equally based on the force applied. But that's not true the BCG and spring strength is higher than the bullet weight.

This is why in all firearms bullet weight plays a key part in the cycle speed of a firearm.

John
You are trying to grasp the concept of inertia. Physical laws AWAYS apply. Sum of forces at any point are a
ways zero. Sum of moments around any point are always zero. Aways. no exceptions.
 
Many many moons ago I owned and briefly pocket carried an NAA Guardian in .380. It sort of resembled a Seecamp on steriods. Bigger, heavier....

It was blowback operated. It was also UNPLEASANT to shoot. I've owned and shot harshly recoiling big bore revolvers and never had one hurt like that gun did. After a magazine or two I was done. My palm was sore and I was often left with a bleeding trigger finger from the trigger guard whacking it.
If you want to experience my little PA63, just go whack your palm with a hammer.
 
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Some of the perceived recoil on some pistols is also the slide impacting the frame. This can be due to bad design or worn out springs.

I love the ability for a gas pistol delayed back pistols to have an easier racking slide but still shoot different grain bullets the same. This is hard to achieve on a recoil operated system.
 
Some of the perceived recoil on some pistols is also the slide impacting the frame. This can be due to bad design or worn out springs.
Only a small part of the felt recoil comes from slide to frame impact. The rest comes from the compressing spring. Since straight/unlocked blowback actions tend to need/have stiffer springs, their recoil is sharper.

A perfect example can be found in the discontinued, scaled down Llama 1911-pattern pistols.

They came in three calibers. .22 LR... .32 auto...and .380 ACP. The early .380s were true to Browning locked breech/tilting barrel models while the later ones were blowback operated.
I owned examples of both way back in the day.

The locked breech model was a joy to handle and shoot. The blowback...not so much. The slide was so small, and the spring so stiff that it made manually cycling the the pistol a chore.

Felt recoil was also an issue. The locked breech model was soft in recoil and not at all unpleasant. The blowback was sharp and stinging.
 
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