The current environment and PRIVATE police forces.....

tanstaafl72555

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Best argument I can think of for de-government-izing police. Make them privately employed (this was actually the pattern in the early USA, WITH VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS, THERE WERE NO MUNICIPAL COPS IN AMERICA DURING THE COLONIAL PERIOD AND IN THE EARLY YEARS OF INDEPENDENCE).

Private citizens cannot then be held to a "different" standard, either being more stringent or less stringent depending on who has power and who has an agenda.

Will there be problems with this? Don't be stupid. OF COURSE there will be problems. But we already HAVE problems, don't we? Isn't that why we have police in the first place? The question is, what is the most just, least problematic, and most cost efficient way to deal with those problems.

Private security is better, going away. We should at least give some thought to this.
 
It also won’t work. The private contractor would require government indemnification in the event of litigation, so they would be a different class. Maybe it would be different on the criminal side, but I’d think the business would quickly close ranks, probably moreso than departments do today. It would absolutely be them vs us in their minds, and the abuses could be either fewer or greater. Gotta remember that our forefathers were a lot less litigious and the rights of the accused were not nearly so stringently interpreted.
 
Never happen.Politicians will never let it happen.
you are correct, of course.

HOWEVER:

This kind of craziness keeps up, and they will have no choice. Cookie jars take revenue to fund. This is the death of every entity of that type. They grow and mushroom until they choke out the revenue stream and then collapse of their own weight.
I prefer to be one of the people who say "hey, this will work on another model" when the wall come down, rather than just wail at the tragedy of the collapse. YMMV.
 
As several have said, the local politicians will never voluntarily relinquish this power. Even if you vote em out, the ones you vote in will be the same. If you want them to no longer have that power you will need to take it from them against their will.

This is one of the biggest things people need to wake up and learn. I realize you e lived with it this way for so long that it’s ingrained but the politicians don’t rule. You’re not obligated to them. They serve at your behest and can be removed, against their will if necessary.
 
City of Chicago has private cops. They're kind of half cops. A mix of armed security and off duty sworn cops. The banks and universities all have them and some neighborhoods do as well. Constant scrutiny and bitching about stop and frisk tactics and the profile of who they stop is 99% black folks in their own neighborhood.
 
Have you never seen an oldWestern? The Pinkerton’s were lawless no good cowards and murderers. There’s your private cop model right there.
The problem with Pinkertons is that it became policing for profit.

And the current govt. injustice system is no better. Having govt. that demands payment under the threat of force to hire agents to use force against you to uphold their will and rule is really a sorry system. It has brought policing for revenue and crimes against the state, both of which would have been anathema at the nations founding.

Private, as in hired “professional” cops seems to be the problem, whether govt. or corporate. Ultimately, justice needs to be in the hands of and a function of the local people. We need local grand juries issuing warrants upon evidence of a crime, local constabulary drafted from the local people to uphold local laws, swift trial by local people and punishment that is either restitution or swift execution in appropriate cases. This stupid time out in a prison needs to go bye bye. It doesn’t work. This circular door of sorry govt. courts doesn’t work. Time for change.
 
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There are problems with all the models, but I think it would help if police chief was an elected position like sheriff.

I’m not sure of the best mechanism for ongoing accountability, but it shouldn’t be the city council. I wouldn’t want the LEO electability to be linked to the council’s electability. Maybe have the police chiefs still fall under the state AG? Or a citizen review board?

I’ve never been employed in LE (have been a Pinkerton) so I don’t know what reporting structure they would most fear. Whatever that is would be what I would like to see.
 
Law that only works for those that can pay... what could go wrong?
The great illusion... no...., the great LIE, is that by collectivizing this or that responsibility, we move it to the realm of openness, accountability and limitation of power. This is not only a lie, but it is a monstrous lie. It rather creates EVERY TIME an unaccountable reservoir of power, a vehicle for corruption, and a shielding from responsibility from those who wield the power.

It is, in short, the State, which is always a monster.

I am not saying that without the State we will all ride unicorns to our favorite hard rock candy mountain and loll about all day in paradise. There will always be problems with people and abuse of power. What I AM saying is that the claim that civil structures are more effective in countering these abuses has been shown to be a lie, and an absurd lie. Once you see it from that perspective, you can see that EVERY argument like the one above is just a variant of "who will build the roads?"
 
Every private cop I've ever met has been a joke. It's not quite like the days of the Pinkertons any more. Back in the old days they were better because private organizations meant a much better funded source. Think railroad tycoons trying to keep their trains running and no rules like government officers. Now there are rules for everyone. The private police force I have met are just bottom of the barrel blet guys trying to get a pay check with no knowledge of how things work.
 
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Every private cop I've ever met has been a joke. It's not quite like the days of the Pinkertons any more. Back in the old days they were better because private organizations meant a much better funded source. Think railroad tycoons trying to keep their trains running and no rules like government officers. Now there are rules for everyone. The private police force I have met are just bottom of the barrel blet guys trying to get a pay check with no knowledge of how things work.
In their heyday Pinkertons were little more than hired assassins. Got a workers rebellion? Hire the Pinkertons, they will come in and in short order the agitators will die resisting arrest and picket lines will be shot up.

When they private police violate your rights, run you off of your property or kill your family and livestock who are you going to complain to? You gonna' hire them to investigate them?
you can see that EVERY argument like the one above is just a variant of "who will build the roads?"
An argument that the privateers have soundly lost.
 
In their heyday Pinkertons were little more than hired assassins. Got a workers rebellion? Hire the Pinkertons, they will come in and in short order the agitators will die resisting arrest and picket lines will be shot up.

When they private police violate your rights, run you off of your property or kill your family and livestock who are you going to complain to? You gonna' hire them to investigate them?

An argument that the privateers have soundly lost.
That's pretty much my point.
 
Difficult question. There are lots of different models for that might or might not work with varying pros and cons. Community policing, Commercial policing, Ronin...

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Every private cop I've ever met has been a joke.

Yeah?
https://twitter.com/CalebJHull/status/1266883740216823814

Private rentacop hired to protect reporters. Flawless.

Talent goes to where the money is. Right now, security goes with the state because.... wait for it..... THAT'S WHERE THE JOBS ARE!!!
If the market were private, the best men would be pulled to the best paying jobs, and what is even more,, the bad apples would be about ......, say....., 1000 times easier to fire and get rid of.
 
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Yeah?
https://twitter.com/pierre_rochard/status/1266899523294515200

Private rentacop hired to protect reporters. Flawless.

Talent goes to where the money is. Right now, security goes with the state because.... wait for it..... THAT'S WHERE THE JOBS ARE!!!
If the market were private, the best men would be pulled to the best paying jobs, and what is even more,, the bad apples would be about ......, say....., 1000 times easier to fire and get rid of.
Yeah I'm not talking about private security I'm talking actual private police force. There are a few in NC one in Charlotte. They are like one step above security officers think security guards that drive around apartment complexes with cars that have green lights.
 
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Yeah, what could go wrong? Privatization is the key to transparency and openness. Just look at big private pharma
:rolleyes:

Really???? I mean REALLY???? You take an industry which is completely dominated by Federal dollars into the health care spigot, so that medicare accounts for 80%+ of the revenue stream of most of these outfits, and you use THAT as evidence why "private" business won't work?
That is a very poor argument.

The only industry more in bed with the government nowadays are military contractors.
 
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Really???? I mean REALLY???? You take an industry which is completely dominated by Federal dollars into the health care spigot, so that medicare accounts for 80%+ of the revenue stream of most of these outfits, and you use THAT as evidence why "private" business won't work?
That is a very poor argument.

The only industry more in bed with the government nowadays are military contractors.
You don't think the private police industry won't be in bed with the Feds too?
 
You don't think the private police industry won't be in bed with the Feds too?

Not if it was done right.

The entire _point_ was accountability and liability. No “sovereign immunity”. When the security company, officer, and hiring company are liable for screwups, like companies and employees are liable for all kinds of other screwups, they would have to be careful.

There is a lot of complaining on here about bad cops getting away with stuff, and suits getting paid off by taxpayers rather than those responsible. Well, private security would be one way to avoid that problem.

And every other industry is in bed with the Feds. So? We still don’t want an England style NHS. Why is security special?
 
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That is the point. Who are these mercenaries going to be accountable to? The people who pay them. Not to you or me, certainly not the people who's rights they violate.

We have a legal system to hold them accountable. Both criminal and civil. The problem is that system isn’t applied to police like it is to private individuals and companies (like private security). Police are the state. Private security is not. HUGE difference.

Neither system is perfect, but I will take a system where the state has fewer guns and less power any day.
 
We have a legal system to hold them accountable. Both criminal and civil. The problem is that system isn’t applied to police like it is to private individuals and companies (like private security). Police are the state. Private security is not. HUGE difference.

Neither system is perfect, but I will take a system where the state has fewer guns and less power any day.
Well since this whole thread is about abolishing that legal system I can't figure what your point could be.

And if private police are such a great idea how come no country on earth has gone to this system?
 
Well since this whole thread is about abolishing that legal system I can't figure what your point could be.

And if private police are such a great idea how come no country on earth has gone to this system?

I should know better than to argue with you. I have you on ignore for good reason.

Because no _government_ on earth is willing to give that power back to the people. And that is the last I will see of your posts for a good long while.
 
I should know better than to argue with you. I have you on ignore for good reason.

Because no _government_ on earth is willing to give that power back to the people. And that is the last I will see of your posts for a good long while.
Looks like you got the last word... no that means I can talk on infinitum cause you won't see it.
 
Gonna try not to wade ankle deep in the poop storm that’s brewing, but this is a rare instance that I agree with BB.

If we abolished all police departments and turned it over to private firms, those firms would be flooded by recently unemployed police officers looking to keep doing what they have always been doing.

Reminds me of the gulf war after the Iraqi Army was disbanded. Suddenly the country was flooded with military aged and trained men who had nothing to do besides be soldiers. Made ripe picking for militias and terrorist cells.


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Any ideas in here why I am thinking this thread might get more traction in NY than here in NC right now?????... or Portland..... or Minneapolis..... or... well,you fill in the blanks.
 
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Gonna try not to wade ankle deep in the poop storm that’s brewing, but this is a rare instance that I agree with BB.

If we abolished all police departments and turned it over to private firms, those firms would be flooded by recently unemployed police officers looking to keep doing what they have always been doing.

Reminds me of the gulf war after the Iraqi Army was disbanded. Suddenly the country was flooded with military aged and trained men who had nothing to do besides be soldiers. Made ripe picking for militias and terrorist cells.
So you are saying that because we have some bad police officers now, we have to put up with those specific police officers forever? There's nothing we can do about them?

The hiring companies - that would be liable for their behavior - would screen them based on incidents they had when on the force. Those should be public records. Or the hiring company would make permission to see their records a condition of interviewing/hiring. The worst ones would get weeded out, and the other bad ones would get weeded out when they did their first stupid/evil stunt instead of their 10th that killed someone.
 
But how many lawsuits could the private companies withstand before they weeded out all of their bad ones?
 
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