Seeking Advice/Guidance (First AR)

As I mentioned earlier in my New Member post some time last week, I'm looking to see if I would be able to get some advice/ suggestions from the community here, and pointed in a good direction for what I'd like to achieve over time. To keep it super to the point, I'm looking to purchase a new complete rifle within the next few months (If the current status of the world will allow me to lol) for two things:

1. I'd like to just get very familiar and proficient with the AR15 in of its self. I like the system very much as well as the modularity and versatility.

2. I haven't shot anything in a few years, I plan on as well as feel like I'd be better served by taking a couple of basic beginner classes as a good refresher and also, I'd like more formal training vs just hanging out at the range with my buddies which was all I was able to do back in NY. The handful of times I was able to use an AR it just felt very natural to me. Eventually I'd like to follow that up with good Home Defense and CQC training down the road.

I kind of have my thoughts all separated here by section, wants, goals, needs to try to keep it as coherent as possible. Basically I'm looking for a good, solid, entry level rifle between $600-800, that will serve as my one rifle for a long time to grow and learn on. Eventually, I do plan on building my own, but for now I feel a complete ready to go rifle and good training is a good way for me to get started.

Rifle Purpose: Basic and solid all around utility rifle for grab and go, range, and home defense down the line

Rifle Needs: Solid manufacturing, dependability, wide parts availability and interchangeability (why I feel a STD Mil Spec would be a good starting point), and the ability to learn on and grow with

My Personal Goals: Solid skill set and fundamentals, proficiency with the platform and weapon system, eventually build own compete rifle

Basic Specs I'm Looking for:
Mil-Spec for parts availability and interchangeability
16" barrel
Free float handguard
Std A2 muzzle brake
No A4 front sight

Probable Setup Would Be:
A good red dot
Flip-up BUIS
Mounted Flashlight
Sling

Budget:
$600-800

Complete Rifles I'm Interested In:
PSA PA15
Diamondback DB15
Radical RF15

I'm open to any and all suggestions, feedback or concern regarding anything above. Do I have a good game plan here to reach my wants and goals? Im here to learn from the vast array of knowledge of the members here If I could, and am excited to start my own little journey into all this. Thank you for any insight you may have!

- Rob

Hi Rob,

At this time I would hang your hat on a Springfield Armory Saint.


I have been around the AR business for a while and I can tell you that is a great carbine. Yes there are others that are great as well, a degree or two better, or worse. but for a value build from a factory, The one linked is what I would buy.

Hard to beat a Ruger MPR. I've seen prices on them coming down sub 800 again.

Where do you live?

Of your list, stay away from Diamondback and Radical. Please. My preference for a factory build in that range is the S&W M&P Sport II, but not sure it fits your criteria. I would give solid weight to @JBoyette cause he's more in-the-know than I.

Welcome to the addiction.

Get the BUIS and sling first, learn to really shoot it, then get the optic.

Also consider the BPM Basic Patrol Carbine

I "2nd" the BPM. (pun intended) Mine isn't the BPC but it's a tank. Runs like a champ.

Also I would highly respect Mr. Boyette's opinion as well.

PSA upper and lower, lower has to go to an FFL. Upper can come direct to you. 2 Pins snap it together and you are off to the range. I recommend a break in, cleaning with solvent and patches after every round fired for about 10-20 rnds. PITA but worth it in the long run.

@JBoyette has solid advice.
I'd stray far enough to suggest a M&P Sport but that's only because I've got a burr under my saddle about giving Springfield Armory any money.

Get the rifle with irons and a quality padded sling. Then spend on classes. The classes will teach you what works and doesn't work as you watch classmate's crap fail. You'll also learn about weight. Carrying around a 7 pound rifle all day on a sling sucks. Ounces equals pounds and pounds equal pain.

This is a buy once, cry once purchase so don't start accessorizing with crap. When it's time for optics you're going to want a lightweight QD mount. Don't skimp on this.

When you're in classes try everybody's rifle that you can. It's a great way to test drive hardware at no cost.

M&P will be a solid bet and will fall into that price range you mention. It's about the best low end rifle without going up into the low high end prices.
If you're real patient, you can buy parts and assembuild what you want for the price you're looking for. Aero blem receivers, ballistic advantage or faxon barrels on sale, etc. I built a couple out of blems with my nephew for about 600 each, and his dad tried pricing them out and came out at well over 1000 per if they were bought new. But it took a LOT of time and patience to get the lowest prices.

I wouldn't stress about the free float though. Unless you're planning on doing a lot of shooting at longer distances.

Del-Ton based in NC has several great products in your budget range. They also offer a lifetime warranty on complete rifles.

Depending on your location, this fits the bill nicely

Bocephus said:

Also consider the BPM Basic Patrol Carbine

BPM – BPM – Barnes Precision Machine

www.usamade-ar15parts.com

Click to expand...

This is a wise answer. BPM is not only local they make great rifles.

Agree with the above, I was not sure I'd like the AR platform and did not want to spend the money at first, so I got the S&W M&P 15-22 rimfire rifle,
after the first magazine I was hooked, had the MPP 15X in my hands a few weeks later just before the Sandy Hook event took place with the price gouging.

Bocephus said:

Also consider the BPM Basic Patrol Carbine

BPM – BPM – Barnes Precision Machine

www.usamade-ar15parts.com

Click to expand...

Andrew finally updated their website … $824.95.

It may say “basic” but it‘s build on the same receivers as all their AR’s. It comes with the same NiB BCG and rock solid M-lok free floated rail. You can put your choice of sighting system (irons, red dot or scope) and shot it then upgrade to things you want (butt stock, grip, trigger, etc) to exactly what you want and not really have much in takeoffs. As to accuracy … my BPC will shoot 2 MOA with bulk ammo and damn close to 1 MOA with handload 69gr stuff if I’m on that day.

On the rare occasion you have a problem they are located in Apex and if you call there is a good chance when the nice lady who answers transfers your call you’ll get Andrew himself. And if you are close enough to take it to their shop if things are not to busy Andrew could even be the one you talk with there.

The only problem is good luck finding one … they fly off the shelves. Fuquay Gun & Gold gets them in on one day and thru FB and word of mouth their gone the next.

I started my AR journey with an MP Sport, the old slick slide model, and it’s been an awesome rifle and would recommend it highly. After I bought a built one, then came the long walk into the dark void of building them myself from PSA kits. Which are also excellent for the price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll buck the trend and say "Go see a trainer" before buying. Figure out what you like and what suits you. I'll also say "go ahead and start with a 1x Red Dot optic". Irons are for FUDDS and virtue signalling. <--and I shoot flintlocks, so FUDD-ery is in my blood.

Seriously, the same amount of effort you're putting into selecting hardware here should be used in vetting and selecting a trainer. There are a LOT of terrible trainers out there, a fair number of good enough and a only a handful that can really teach. Spend some time finding a good one. That $$ spent will go a long way to helping you figure out what gear and specs suit you.

I'll put in a plug for VOD Tactical in Old Fort, NC as a training option. Frank is a stellar guy that is patient, loves his students and can actually teach.

Edit: For whatever reason, I can't reply with the multi-quote at the moment:

"Hi Rob,


At this time I would hang your hat on a Springfield Armory


I have been around the AR business for a while and I can tell you that is a great carbine. Yes there are others that are great as well, a degree or two better, or worse. but for a value build from a factory, The one linked is what I would buy."


Thank you for the advice, its a bit out of the target budget range at the moment, but I may definitely just be patient and save a little more for a better rifle out of the box. I will keep this one saved for sure. I had a friend with a Springfield Armory and that rifle was awesome from a manufacturing point (that's the machinist in me) and while I never fired it, he would everytime he could and loved it.


"Of your list, stay away from Diamondback and Radical. Please. My preference for a factory build in that range is the S&W M&P Sport II, but not sure it fits your criteria. I would give solid weight to @JBoyette cause he's more in-the-know than I.


Welcome to the addiction.


Get the BUIS and sling first, learn to really shoot it, then get the optic."



I had a feeling I would get that in regards to the Diamondback and Radical. Not the first time I've been told that. Mixed reviews and no way to try myself, I probably would be better off staying away.


Any qualms with the PSA? I've personally shot a couple of these and thought they were good for the money (with my limited experience)


As far as the irons and sling go, that was my exact plan, maybe I am on the right path of thinking here.


"Also consider the BPM Basic Patrol Carbine"



This one really caught my attention today, I had never heard of or seen it personally, but this may be the one in a few months (hopefully). Thank you everyone for bringing BPM to my attention, I know they had been mentioned a few times.


"@JBoyette has solid advice.

I'd stray far enough to suggest a M&P Sport but that's only because I've got a burr under my saddle about giving Springfield Armory any money.


Get the rifle with irons and a quality padded sling. Then spend on classes. The classes will teach you what works and doesn't work as you watch classmate's crap fail. You'll also learn about weight. Carrying around a 7 pound rifle all day on a sling sucks. Ounces equals pounds and pounds equal pain.


This is a buy once, cry once purchase so don't start accessorizing with crap. When it's time for optics you're going to want a lightweight QD mount. Don't skimp on this.


When you're in classes try everybody's rifle that you can. It's a great way to test drive hardware at no cost."[/ICODE]


This is one of the reason I wanted to join up here, thank you for the excellent, real world advice. Glad to see the plan in my head is in line with much more seasoned folks. I really appreciate all the input everyone, please keep it coming.

Tim said:

I'll buck the trend and say "Go see a trainer" before buying. Figure out what you like and what suits you. I'll also say "go ahead and start with a 1x Red Dot optic". Irons are for FUDDS and virtue signalling. <--and I shoot flintlocks, so FUDD-ery is in my blood.

Seriously, the same amount of effort you're putting into selecting hardware here should be used in vetting and selecting a trainer. There are a LOT of terrible trainers out there, a fair number of good enough and a only a handful that can really teach. Spend some time finding a good one. That $$ spent will go a long way to helping you figure out what gear and specs suit you.

I'll put in a plug for VOD Tactical in Old Fort, NC as a training option. Frank is a stellar guy that is patient, loves his students and can actually teach.

Click to expand...

There's definitely no shame in learning some things before you start wasting money.
Any one of us with enough guns will have boxes of bad cheap holsters and stories about how much money we've wasted before we knew better.
Just a couple weeks ago I got to teach a couple younger guys that you can pop the upper off an AR, pull the bolt carrier, and sight through the barrel to get your iron sights and red dot lined up to within maybe a few inches at 50 yards. I couldn't even tell you how many times i've sighted in how many red dots the expensive way - by shooting at 50 yards, then pulilng the target back to 20, then 10, then back out to 20, then back out to 50, a few shots at each distance...

I'm not trying to speak for other people, but if you were my neighbor and you said "boy, i wish i could try a magpul stock, a moe handguard, and some kind of foregrip before I went out and bought one"... I'd probably say "which ones were you thinking about, i got lots of parts you could borrow"

I noticed nobody brought up the Ruger AR556 which does fit the price point and is an entry level rifle as well, any reason for that?

Stogies said:

I noticed nobody brought up the Ruger AR556 which does fit the price point and is an entry level rifle as well, any reason for that?

Click to expand...

Post #3

So...I'm going to be the "my Poverty Pony is just as good" guy right now. I have three "cheap" rifles. The first one was an Anderson optics ready rifle. Got it for $479 right after the Sandy Hook thing. Ran great out of the box, except it hated steel case. I ended up free floating it and changing to a .223 Wylde barrel. It's great. Next is a PSA lower with a BCM 7.62 upper. Slapped it together when stuff was cheap. I think I had $330 into it minus mags. That thing eats whatever cheap steel cased 7.62x39 I throw at it. These two rifles have never had a mechanical malfunction after many thousands of rounds fired. I just finished putting together my third. Aero upper on a PSA lower. I have yet to fire it, but I have no doubt it will be fine. Mil-spec is Mil-spec in my opinion. If you look into it, you're going to learn that a lot of the parts for the boutique guns are manufactured by the same folks. Basically, you're paying the premium for the roll mark.

As far as red dots go, I have tried several of the cheap ones. They all work, for a little while. Currently, I like AT3 red dots. They are not prohibitively expensive, the batteries last a while, and they hold zero well. I have yet to have one fail.

BPM, Aero, PSA, and a few other quality guns can be had in your price range. I'd keep an eye on Aero's site as it seems their inventory is flowing more regularly than it was 3 months ago. But I'd bet by the end of the week that we all get an email from PSA for a 4th of July sale that will make us feel like it's 2018 again. They have previously done INSANE deals for the 4th of July. I'd bet you can get a premium carbine for under $700 with a free float rail, premium BCG, and a lower with nice Magpul furniture. Then just grab a Holosun form @TacShift and go shoot.

NCFubar said:

Andrew finally updated their website … $824.95.

It may say “basic” but it‘s build on the same receivers as all their AR’s. It comes with the same NiB BCG and rock solid M-lok free floated rail. You can put your choice of sighting system (irons, red dot or scope) and shot it then upgrade to things you want (butt stock, grip, trigger, etc) to exactly what you want and not really have much in takeoffs. As to accuracy … my BPC will shoot 2 MOA with bulk ammo and damn close to 1 MOA with handload 69gr stuff if I’m on that day.

On the rare occasion you have a problem they are located in Apex and if you call there is a good chance when the nice lady who answers transfers your call you’ll get Andrew himself. And if you are close enough to take it to their shop if things are not to busy Andrew could even be the one you talk with there.

The only problem is good luck finding one … they fly off the shelves. Fuquay Gun & Gold gets them in on one day and thru FB and word of mouth their gone the next.

Click to expand...

When purchasing my first AR, I called BPM and Andrew answered the phone. He spoke to me for probably 20 minutes. That and the fact he is local made the decision for me. For you Geeks out there, we used to throw LAN parties in that building before Andrew bought it.

I did buy separate upper and lower from Fuquay, both BPM. Stainless Bull Barrel, wylde chamber. It's definitely an accurate platform. I think the hand guard is dated at this point but I recently removed the red dot and added a nice 1x8.

Tucci454 said:

So...I'm going to be the "my Poverty Pony is just as good" guy right now. I have three "cheap" rifles. The first one was an Anderson optics ready rifle. Got it for $479 right after the Sandy Hook thing. Ran great out of the box, except it hated steel case. I ended up free floating it and changing to a .223 Wylde barrel. It's great. Next is a PSA lower with a BCM 7.62 upper. Slapped it together when stuff was cheap. I think I had $330 into it minus mags. That thing eats whatever cheap steel cased 7.62x39 I throw at it. These two rifles have never had a mechanical malfunction after many thousands of rounds fired. I just finished putting together my third. Aero upper on a PSA lower. I have yet to fire it, but I have no doubt it will be fine. Mil-spec is Mil-spec in my opinion. If you look into it, you're going to learn that a lot of the parts for the boutique guns are manufactured by the same folks. Basically, you're paying the premium for the roll mark.

As far as red dots go, I have tried several of the cheap ones. They all work, for a little while. Currently, I like AT3 red dots. They are not prohibitively expensive, the batteries last a while, and they hold zero well. I have yet to have one fail.

Click to expand...

Generally speaking, I am going to 100% agree with you. Ive had nothing but solid luck with PSA and Anderson lowers.

However, this fella is just getting into the game, so we want to make sure whatever he gets has the highest chance of being a solid rifle. Once he is familiar with their workings, knows how to spot user error versus manufacturing error, and can diagnose problems, then sticking to tried and true is probably the best route. I doubt he would have any issues with an Anderson, but why take the chance? We are only talking $100-200 or so more, and in the long term, its a solid investment to make sure the first experience is a good one.

If my buddy wants a solid date for his first prom, id rather set him up with a solid 7 or 8 than a 5 or 6. Even though in time, we learn those 5 and 6s are perfectly fine.

Good suggestions already. Plenty of rifles to be had. Few thoughts:
Personally, I would look for 16” midlength (not carbine) with a lighter barrel profile ideally. A2 birdcage is a flash hider and compensator, not a brake. It’s important to understand the difference, imo.

I’ll throw out this:
If you are anywhere near raleigh to Greensboro: when you get a rifle, I will take you to a private range and give you basic instruction and tips that you will find useful for shooting it from 5’ to 300 yards, as well as setup rifle with dependable zero. Not an expert but have competed a bit with them and have built many. Can help with some handgun shooting as well.
I would encourage you to have the goal of learning and trying some matches. I think it is the best way to improve and test you equipment and skills.

NKD said:

Good suggestions already. Plenty of rifles to be had. Few thoughts:
Personally, I would look for 16” midlength (not carbine) with a lighter barrel profile ideally. A2 birdcage is a flash hider and compensator, not a brake. It’s important to understand the difference, imo.

I’ll throw out this:
If you are anywhere near raleigh to Greensboro: when you get a rifle, I will take you to a private range and give you basic instruction and tips that you will find useful for shooting it from 5’ to 300 yards, as well as setup rifle with dependable zero. Not an expert but have competed a bit with them and have built many. Can help with some handgun shooting as well.
I would encourage you to have the goal of learning and trying some matches. I think it is the best way to improve and test you equipment and skills.

Click to expand...

Very Generous offer!

@BlackOceans13 , I have no experience with PSA. A crap-ton of people here have them and love them, but I have no data.

I had not been aware the Barnes had come down in price. Of all the ones mentioned, that is one of the bestest.

Chuckman said:

I had not been aware the Barnes had come down in price. Of all the ones mentioned, that is one of the bestest.

Click to expand...

They haven’t come down in price but, instead, came out with an offering that uses cheaper parts for the things people usually change out eventually (handguard, grip, stock, etc) that allows them to sell at a lower price point

Bocephus said:

They haven’t come down in price but, instead, came out with an offering that uses cheaper parts for the things people usually change out eventually (handguard, grip, stock, etc) that allows them to sell at a lower price point

Click to expand...

Not wanting to sparse words, but.... isn't "allows them to sell at a lower price point" coming down in price?

At any rate, it's a great thing. I'd love to see BCM follow that model.

Hashknife said:

Very Generous offer!

Click to expand...

Honestly, I've had so much help from the gun community. There are some serious great shooters on this forum, most of who don't even post.
Even world champions have helped me, for no reason other than to help a guy get better. I do try and pass along the knowledge I have received if I can.

You might be surprised how rarely I get taken up on it, lol.

NKD said:

Honestly, I've had so much help from the gun community. There are some serious great shooters on this forum, most of who don't even post.
Even world champions have helped me, for no reason other than to help a guy get better. I do try and pass along the knowledge I have received if I can.

You might be surprised how rarely I get taken up on it, lol.

Click to expand...

Hell, I may take you up on it.

It's crazy what I have learned from guys on the forum.

Chuckman said:

Hell, I may take you up on it.

It's crazy what I have learned from guys on the forum.

Click to expand...

Bet I could learn a thing or two from you as well. Not a doubt in my mind.

Makes little difference in what rifle you choose . Learning and practice , and i mean a lot , will make the difference .

Have you checked the classifieds here?

This just might fit the bill for you....
S&W M&P Sport 2

Thank you everyone for the input! I really appreciate it all. I just wanted to clarify, there's two reasons why I'd have to wait at least a few months before being able to actually pick up a rifle:

1) I just began putting a little money aside here and there towards it, and I'm sure many can relate, it's not much at a time lol and

2) My current temporary living situation (Girlfriend's mother), has already given me a very hard NO, on keeping a gun at the house. When me and the woman are back into our own place then its a very different story.

"When purchasing my first AR, I called BPM and Andrew answered the phone. He spoke to me for probably 20 minutes. That and the fact he is local made the decision for me. For you Geeks out there, we used to throw LAN parties in that building before Andrew bought it.

I did buy separate upper and lower from Fuquay, both BPM. Stainless Bull Barrel, wylde chamber. It's definitely an accurate platform. I think the hand guard is dated at this point but I recently removed the red dot and added a nice 1x8."

I spent a little time looking into Andrew and BPM last night. He seems like a good guy, his background is very similar to mine (though an incredibly much higher level), and he's located in Apex all seem like wins to me

"Generally speaking, I am going to 100% agree with you. Ive had nothing but solid luck with PSA and Anderson lowers.

However, this fella is just getting into the game, so we want to make sure whatever he gets has the highest chance of being a solid rifle. Once he is familiar with their workings, knows how to spot user error versus manufacturing error, and can diagnose problems, then sticking to tried and true is probably the best route. I doubt he would have any issues with an Anderson, but why take the chance? We are only talking $100-200 or so more, and in the long term, its a solid investment to make sure the first experience is a good one."

I think that I'm just going to be patient and save money for a while onger and wait on a BPM Basic Patrol Carbine as recommended here various times. I really like the idea of the rifle already having a boron nickel plated BCG out of the box and the .223 Wylde seems like it would be a great feature to have as well. It seems to check all the boxes and is only a hair over what I was originally willing to spend max. Not a big deal.

"I’ll throw out this:

If you are anywhere near raleigh to Greensboro: when you get a rifle, I will take you to a private range and give you basic instruction and tips that you will find useful for shooting it from 5’ to 300 yards, as well as setup rifle with dependable zero. Not an expert but have competed a bit with them and have built many. Can help with some handgun shooting as well.


I would encourage you to have the goal of learning and trying some matches. I think it is the best way to improve and test you equipment and skills."

This is an incredibly generous offer, I really appreciate it, when I'm able to I have no problem on taking a ride up from Charlotte. Thank you very much!

BlackOceans13 said:

Thank you everyone for the input. I just wanted to clarify, there's two reasons why I'd have to wait at least a few months before being able to actually pick up a rifle. 1) I just began putting a little money aside here and there towards it, and I'm sure many can relate, it's not much at a time lol and 2) My current temporary living situation (Girlfriend's mother), has already given me a very hard NO, on keeping a gun at the house. When me and the woman are back into our own place then its a very different story.

"When purchasing my first AR, I called BPM and Andrew answered the phone. He spoke to me for probably 20 minutes. That and the fact he is local made the decision for me. For you Geeks out there, we used to throw LAN parties in that building before Andrew bought it.

I did buy separate upper and lower from Fuquay, both BPM. Stainless Bull Barrel, wylde chamber. It's definitely an accurate platform. I think the hand guard is dated at this point but I recently removed the red dot and added a nice 1x8."

I spent a little time looking into Andrew and BPM last night. He seems like a good guy, his background is very similar to mine (though an incredibly much higher level), and he's located in Apex all seem like wins to me

"Generally speaking, I am going to 100% agree with you. Ive had nothing but solid luck with PSA and Anderson lowers.

However, this fella is just getting into the game, so we want to make sure whatever he gets has the highest chance of being a solid rifle. Once he is familiar with their workings, knows how to spot user error versus manufacturing error, and can diagnose problems, then sticking to tried and true is probably the best route. I doubt he would have any issues with an Anderson, but why take the chance? We are only talking $100-200 or so more, and in the long term, its a solid investment to make sure the first experience is a good one."

I think that I'm just going to be patient and save money for a while onger and wait on a BPM Basic Patrol Carbine as recommended here various times. I really like the idea of the rifle already having a boron nickel plated BCG out of the box and the .223 Wylde seems like it would be a great feature to have as well. It seems to check all the boxes and is only a hair over what I was originally willing to spend max. Not a big deal.

"I’ll throw out this:

If you are anywhere near raleigh to Greensboro: when you get a rifle, I will take you to a private range and give you basic instruction and tips that you will find useful for shooting it from 5’ to 300 yards, as well as setup rifle with dependable zero. Not an expert but have competed a bit with them and have built many. Can help with some handgun shooting as well.


I would encourage you to have the goal of learning and trying some matches. I think it is the best way to improve and test you equipment and skills."

This is an incredibly generous offer, I really appreciate it, when I'm able to I have no problem on taking a ride up from Charlotte. Thank you very much!

Click to expand...

May the force be with you.

Maybe i'm a special kind of stupid, but I oil my rifles and having the bcg finish being phosphate, nitride, NiB, etc mostly matters when you're trying to clean the crud off, which I rarely do. My cleaning is mostly just wiping a damp paper towel, a dry paper towel, and an oily patch around... I might throw some oily qtips in there if i'm being fancy.

Ruger, S&W, etc have a lot of after market add ons b/c they are very popular & owners want to boost their AR's performance after they've used them for a while.
Also remember, this is probably not your last AR 15 purchase. After you've used it awhile, you will get a much better idea of what works for you. You can sell your starter rifle or let your backup buddy use it.