Poll-At what price point do you get a quality, stake your life reliability?
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Whatever the current price is for a Colt 6920. Coincidentally, I find this rifle to be an excellent gauge of the market. They’re generally $899-1400, depending on market conditions. I’d say “normal” price is $1099, hence my vote.
I purchased a couple of Bushmaster Patrolman Carbines from Walmart 10 years ago for $800 each and have shot a lot of rounds through them with no problems. Used to help teach some classes and the guys with expensive custom built stuff seemed to have a lot more issues. Also - the guys with the inspector gadget rigs learned pretty quick that all of that crap will get in your way and cause problems. The expensive carbines are fine if your doing competitive shooting but if your down in the dirt - simple and reliable will win.
A coworker of mine as an older bushmaster that I think,...... He bought in the early 90's. It looked well used, and there is no telling how many rounds that rifle has fired. I think he said he has only changed some springs (don't remember which ones) and the gas tube more than once. It has never failed him, this was all preventative maintenance. In today's market, I'm guessing new one similar might be around $800. Another coworker has a cheap M&P, which was about a $600 rifle 3-4 years ago. He absolutely abused that rifle for a few months. It never gave him any problems within the first 5000 rounds or so. I can't speak on anything afterwards because he relocated since. I know I saw him go through 500 rounds in an afternoon with no malfunctions. It seems like most of them function fine, regardless of price. With a few exceptions, bells and whistles are what really add to the price. The basic (inexpensive) trigger, butt stock, handguard, flash suppressor, sights work just fine. Different sights, butt stocks, handguards , stainless barrels, triggers, rails, muzzle brakes, etc are usually what adds more cost. These bells and whistles may not have a lot a value to everyone, so sometimes a less expensive basic rifle is fine. Just depends on what you want.
Another friend of mine bought a new CMMG something or another. I handled it while it was still new, the action and trigger were very good (smooth, not gritty,) compared to others, but it wasn't a cheap rifle. I don't remember him ever complaining about the rifle.
Another friend of mine bought a new CMMG something or another. I handled it while it was still new, the action and trigger were very good (smooth, not gritty,) compared to others, but it wasn't a cheap rifle. I don't remember him ever complaining about the rifle.
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Following to see the feedback here. I have never been an AR guy. I have a Stag-15 classic that I got on a black friday deal for about $500 in 2017.
I have never put it through the paces to the point that it ever failed. I have only shot brass cased factory ammo (brass was a range requirement) and it has been fine. But in a short range stake your life situation I would prefer my Cx4 for various reasons.
Since it is the only AR I have felt like I needed to own< I guess I stake my life on it's functionality. 🤷♂️
I have never put it through the paces to the point that it ever failed. I have only shot brass cased factory ammo (brass was a range requirement) and it has been fine. But in a short range stake your life situation I would prefer my Cx4 for various reasons.
Since it is the only AR I have felt like I needed to own< I guess I stake my life on it's functionality. 🤷♂️
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BigWaylon
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Since optics and accessories don’t count, and I’m assuming silencer falls under accessories for this discussion, I’ve never spent $1000 on an AR. Not counting my 9mm and 45ACP ARs, I’ve never had one that didn’t shoot. (Except for a 300BLK that the gas block was properly reinstalled by the guy that Cerakoted the barrel)
I absolutely think you can do it for under $1000. And quite of few of the ARs I own were $599 or less…so that’s definitely not out of the question. (I did vote $600-$999)
I absolutely think you can do it for under $1000. And quite of few of the ARs I own were $599 or less…so that’s definitely not out of the question. (I did vote $600-$999)
Chuckman
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My first AR was an utter piece of crap, from a NC manufacturer (Timberwolf I think?). I had a friend put in a new LPG, a new BCG, a new gas block, those made it decent, but still had cycling issues.
I went with $1000+ based on MSRP, but my three most reliable were all under that without optic. My Bushmaster DCM rifle is a 1/2 MOA gun from back when CMP was selling match grade service rifles at $899, but that was maybe late 90’s time frame. My Sig M400 and PSA pistol were both under a grand, have had zero malfunctions with stock parts, and will eat/cycle everything from match ammo to rusted Russian trash. I would stake my life on either.
Less than $650 if you shop around. Aero Precision makes quality stuff, catch a sale and you can get a basic M4 style upper, complete lower, bcg and ch for $650 or less.
@keepcalmandcarryon You are overthinking this. Cost and a name do not determine reliability, and quality is nothing without training.
Get something simple and affordable as a first rifle, get mags, ammo, and a sling. Then go use it, take a basic rifle class. Even if you decide you hate the rifle and want to replace it outright you will have gained some understanding of what you would rather have.
Get something simple and affordable as a first rifle, get mags, ammo, and a sling. Then go use it, take a basic rifle class. Even if you decide you hate the rifle and want to replace it outright you will have gained some understanding of what you would rather have.
OP
It’s a poll so by definition it is about what groups thinks, not my thoughts.
Man, if only we could spend a certain amount that guaranteed we could trust our life with it. That would be amazing.
IMO we can change this from “AR” to “Automobile”. So I guess we are looking for the Toyota Corolla of AR-15’s here. Not sure what that is.
If the was about pistols I’d blurt out “GLOCK 19”!!
IMO we can change this from “AR” to “Automobile”. So I guess we are looking for the Toyota Corolla of AR-15’s here. Not sure what that is.
If the was about pistols I’d blurt out “GLOCK 19”!!
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Price makes no difference. Only 2 main qualifications , it must go bang every time you pull the trigger and hit what your shooting at.
You should not base quality on how much or how little money you spend. This is an age old discussion in firearms. SO many people love to opine on the quality of a firearms who cannot run their gun, and only take it out of the safe a few times a year for a photo op
Well you obviously haven’t been around us long enough. We don’t think as a group. We rant, berate and vent.
Buy a Barnes and be done with it. It’s a happy medium. Maybe a little better than @NKD Corolla analogy. Maybe more of a Tacoma or Tundra. Built tough and will go bang accurately for a long time If not without a downside. Weight.
Chuckman
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My first non-mil issue AR was from a local company, it was an utter POS. That was back when there were maybe five decent mass produced ARs on the market and a handful of small guys. There was no parity then. They were expensive and worth it, or cheap and not. Few middlings.
Today you can't swing a dead cat for hitting a decent or quality AR manufacturer (or parts manufacturer). The quality of production has pretty much gone up across the board. It's a good position to be in.
Today you can't swing a dead cat for hitting a decent or quality AR manufacturer (or parts manufacturer). The quality of production has pretty much gone up across the board. It's a good position to be in.
For “quality, stake your life reliability” 6920 is the benchmark. I prefer mid-length gas (on a full-size AR) so BCM is my go to.
711b
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Well, for the simply stated criterion of "quality, stake your life reliability" -- and certainly for most homeowners or renters concerned with the obvious issues -- it's hard to beat a double-barrel 12 ga., or a reliable pump. And the price points there are pretty low. I have a relatively cheesy Pardner 12 ga. pump on my wall that's a lot heavier than it needs to be, has a high-intensity flashlight, lazer sight, and fiber optic sight on it, and has never failed to function in any way with a number of rounds run through it.
But I guess the question is addressed to a consideration of AR platform (or similar) firearms. In that case, I can't find any fault with the S&W M&P AR-15 that my wife bought several years ago because she wanted a rifle around for potential incursions from various sorts of critters. We spent about $675 on it about 6 years ago (Gander Mtn.). Then she added some stuff like a magpul forend and front grip with high intensity light. Nowadays, I suspect the bare gun is near the top of the $999-$600 group (not counting the mods). She's been through a couple of training courses with it, and has shot it a bunch. I'm just the armorer (and improved the trigger on it about as much as you can and still keep that horrid standard AR trigger). It works well and has never malfunctioned. All she cares about is 50-100 yds. accuracy. It sports a Vortex Crossfire 2x-7x scope, normally left at 4x.
But I guess the question is addressed to a consideration of AR platform (or similar) firearms. In that case, I can't find any fault with the S&W M&P AR-15 that my wife bought several years ago because she wanted a rifle around for potential incursions from various sorts of critters. We spent about $675 on it about 6 years ago (Gander Mtn.). Then she added some stuff like a magpul forend and front grip with high intensity light. Nowadays, I suspect the bare gun is near the top of the $999-$600 group (not counting the mods). She's been through a couple of training courses with it, and has shot it a bunch. I'm just the armorer (and improved the trigger on it about as much as you can and still keep that horrid standard AR trigger). It works well and has never malfunctioned. All she cares about is 50-100 yds. accuracy. It sports a Vortex Crossfire 2x-7x scope, normally left at 4x.
It depends on the particular Corolla or BMW. I have a Jeep that hasn’t been in the shop yet. Go figure. 😁
georgel
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But it was you that framed the question around price and reliability. There was not an option out, such as "Price doesn't matter." or "Price does not necessarily equate to quality."
So, that leaves those believing this other opinion without a vote and skewing the results.
Just sayin' ...
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711b
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True, and I don't know any statistics of Corollas vs. BMW. I did have a Highlander and BMW 528i at the same time for several years. Bought the Highlander new and the BMW with about 25,000 miles on if from a dealer (it had been a lease car). During the time I had them the BMW had some electrical issues that the dealer dealt with much to my satisfaction. The Highlander transmission croaked when it was just out of warranty, so that cost me something (for a rebuilt one) that I didn't think it should have. Other than that, maintenance on the BMW tended to be a bit more expensive (tires, for example). But it got WAY better gas mileage than the Highlander did. I liked both of them, but LOVED the BMW. When I sold the BMW, it had something over 150,000 miles on it, was still working great, and was still getting about 35 mpg on the highway (though it was a manual 5-speed and 2-wheel drive, where the Highlander was an automatic and all-wheel drive).
Which, if you're into comparing cars to guns, is an indication than any simplistic comparison doesn't mean much. Though in general I agree that "less expensive" doesn't at all mean "less dependable".
Mine are all sub $350. They are all reliable. No need to spend more. Bullet comes out same speed as that $1000 one. Have to hit a potato sack at 10 feet so no need for that match barrel.
Corollas run most of the time and will damn near always get you from point a to point b. Why anyone buys a BMW again after owning one is beyond my feeble thinking capacity. Dont ever put the terms "reliable" and "BMW " in the same sentence.True, and I don't know any statistics of Corollas vs. BMW. I did have a Highlander and BMW 528i at the same time for several years. Bought the Highlander new and the BMW with about 25,000 miles on if from a dealer (it had been a lease car). During the time I had them the BMW had some electrical issues that the dealer dealt with much to my satisfaction. The Highlander transmission croaked when it was just out of warranty, so that cost me something (for a rebuilt one) that I didn't think it should have. Other than that, maintenance on the BMW tended to be a bit more expensive (tires, for example). But it got WAY better gas mileage than the Highlander did. I liked both of them, but LOVED the BMW. When I sold the BMW, it had something over 150,000 miles on it, was still working great, and was still getting about 35 mpg on the highway (though it was a manual 5-speed and 2-wheel drive, where the Highlander was an automatic and all-wheel drive).
Which, if you're into comparing cars to guns, is an indication than any simplistic comparison doesn't mean much. Though in general I agree that "less expensive" doesn't at all mean "less dependable".
As far as AR's go people just like to accessorize things and think that spending more gets you more. Thats human nature.
711b
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Well, that's an autobiographical comment that is an admirable admission, but to which I think no response is necessary.
It seems to me that 99% of the AR market must be accessories and replacement parts. It's not clear to me why anyone actually manufactures complete guns any longer. Except that a lot of people don't have the skills to adequately assemble a pile of parts. Spending more does get you more (just like spending in the first place gets you something). The trick is to have it get you something with more value than you had before. And with a bit of effort, that can be accomplished.
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I have a buddy with a dodge truck
with 467k. Original motor and trans, go figure
711b
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Sometimes it depends on how you treat it. Other times it depends on how it's built. Obviously a combination of the two. I suspect a lot of it depends heavily on the person behind the wheel and pushing the pedals.
When I got my first job just out of graduate school, I bought a (1974) 3/4 ton Chevrolet pickup. Within about 3 years of mild driving, it needed a new clutch. Now I NEVER had (and never have since then) gone through a clutch. And it was a "heavy duty" clutch. ?????
Well, it turns out that it was indeed a heavy duty clutch -- which meant extra beefy parts and extra strong springs. The problem was that GM didn't see the need to use a heavy clutch fork with those extra strong springs. So over relatively little time, the standard clutch fork got bent by the other beefed up parts, and then the clutch burned out.
Duh.
When I sold my BMW at 150,000 miles, it still had the original clutch and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.
I didn’t vote in either poll as I’m still a novice. I don’t think I’m qualified to have an opinion but I’ll throw in my $.02 on my experience.
I bought my 1st AR, a $650 PSA off the shelf a few months ago and modded it to a point and then started building one from scratch. Part of the decision to start over was just to not continue to dump too much into a cheap(er) gun, and to also be familiar with how they work, make a nice one and be very specific on each decision on part selection.
To me, the build is half the fun. It has been for cars, trucks, and other things I’ve done before. Shoulda done that the 1st time around, but I gained some experience shooting one. Being over 50 now, my life will never depend on it. If it does, I’m screwed. I just needed another hobby. As with other hobbies I tend to research the crap out of things and I’m making this one exactly the way I want it and trying to maintain a decent budget.
With an Aero upper and lower, a nice trigger and barrel selection I’ll end up around $1200 to get back to where I started with the $650 PSA. I think I’m going to have a much nicer gun.
Now I just need to get out and shoot more, but I’m already thinking about another build and what the next one will look like. Can’t help it. 🤷♂️
I bought my 1st AR, a $650 PSA off the shelf a few months ago and modded it to a point and then started building one from scratch. Part of the decision to start over was just to not continue to dump too much into a cheap(er) gun, and to also be familiar with how they work, make a nice one and be very specific on each decision on part selection.
To me, the build is half the fun. It has been for cars, trucks, and other things I’ve done before. Shoulda done that the 1st time around, but I gained some experience shooting one. Being over 50 now, my life will never depend on it. If it does, I’m screwed. I just needed another hobby. As with other hobbies I tend to research the crap out of things and I’m making this one exactly the way I want it and trying to maintain a decent budget.
With an Aero upper and lower, a nice trigger and barrel selection I’ll end up around $1200 to get back to where I started with the $650 PSA. I think I’m going to have a much nicer gun.
Now I just need to get out and shoot more, but I’m already thinking about another build and what the next one will look like. Can’t help it. 🤷♂️
Jshrad
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M&P sport has been 100% for me. It has been utterly, boringly reliable and more accurate than I am. A Romeo on top, a cheapish foregrip and a cheapish light is all I've done. I picked it after somebody maybe Iraqveteran did a burn down on it and I was impressed. I don't think a higher priced one would fill my needs any better.
Not surprise at the responses of budget rifles performing 100%, I've had the same experience. But I view the question as, “if you were going to battle tomorrow, what’s the least expensive new gun you’d buy?”
Part of that selection process is the risk of quality variances. Saying you’d take your PSA rifle that you’ve run through it’s paces isn’t all that fair because someone can’t buy your rifle. They’d have to buy a new one and hope it performs exactly the same. While I’m a PSA fan, I think most would agree that their build quality and quality control isn’t top of the class.
Maybe that’s not what the OP meant, though. Idk
Part of that selection process is the risk of quality variances. Saying you’d take your PSA rifle that you’ve run through it’s paces isn’t all that fair because someone can’t buy your rifle. They’d have to buy a new one and hope it performs exactly the same. While I’m a PSA fan, I think most would agree that their build quality and quality control isn’t top of the class.
Maybe that’s not what the OP meant, though. Idk
OP
M&P sport is a great rifle and, in my opinion, the best balance between reliability and price.
“if you were going to battle tomorrow, what’s the least expensive new gun you’d buy?”
I'm looking at it the same way.
I'm far from a machinist, and know very little about mechanics, but I do subscribe to the thought, in many, many cases, that "you get what you pay for." For the most part, this has been my experience in life. A cheaper AR may not have the production quality, quality control and tolerances as a higher-end AR does. And although most of my builds have performed great, I'd rather have a reputable company's rifle in my hands if I was in harm's way. An extra $500 buys me $100k in piece-of-mind.
When I see 1000's of PSA's or Andersons coming back from a war zone without complaint, I'd probably change my mind.
The only AR I have that failed due to the mfg is a Knights Armament, go figure.
My custom billet receivers and the poverty ponys have just worked. I’ve caused two FTF situations by running the dirty bolt too dry in a suppressed setup.
For the money, I’d be eyeballing Aero and Barnes.
My custom billet receivers and the poverty ponys have just worked. I’ve caused two FTF situations by running the dirty bolt too dry in a suppressed setup.
For the money, I’d be eyeballing Aero and Barnes.
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OP
I do agree you get what you pay for however the AR platform is somewhat unique where you can get the same rifle priced from $400 up to $2000+.
I had 2 PSA $325 build kits on Anderson lowers and treated them like a red headed step child and they ran great. That said some of the parts looked a little sketchy-charging handle was a bit too flexible, buffer tube aluminum seemed a bit soft, bolt catch was a rough looking casting and after 3,000+ rounds the buffers were worn and one had the upper and BCG worn heavily to one side. This tells me “I got a good one” which is not a great endorsement.
Many of the gucci AR’s come with things that are not going to make them more reliable as well. A fancy stock, laser etching on the upper and a fancy handguard don’t help.
It seems the consensus is mod tier $600+ is the sweet spot and I would agree with that.
If you want to be sure Colt for a few hundred more would not be a bad bet.
I’m curious why the colt 6920 is considered somehow better than the s&w m&p.
For me battle reliability means 20 rounds from cold.
For me battle reliability means 20 rounds from cold.
OP
A fair question. Not having a Colt AR personally some things come to mind that COULD make them the best choice.
-Colt has the technical data package for the design. They at least know what the dimensions SHOULD be.
-Colt has made the design longer and (guessing here) made more of them than anyone else.
-all the Colts I have seen have a pinned in place gas block. From my experience a loose/shifted gas block is a prime failure point in the design.
All that said nothing I listed is a guarantee.
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