"God loves everyone...."

Chuckman

Chuckman

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I have heard this for the past 54 years of my life. But in Psalms 11:5, there is scripture to the contrary ("The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked [2] and those who love violence his soul hates", NIV).

I feel like the "God loves everyone" theology has come about with the prevalent 'pop grace' theology that stresses everyone gets grace and mercy and forgiveness but declines to mention repentance and turning from sinful behavior. It seems anathema that God doesn't love everyone, but it has become a bumper sticker.

I struggle with this some. I'd love to hear others' perspectives.
 
Everyone starts out at Love. A love deep enough to give up his son for. But by our freedom of choice we can decide to step outside of this Love. He is cool like that. He doesnt force his Love on anyone.
 
B00ger said:
Everyone starts out at Love. A love deep enough to give up his son for. But by our freedom of choice we can decide to step outside of this Love. He is cool like that. He doesnt force his Love on anyone.
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That is something most people don't understand. I hear "how can God allow bad things to happen" all the time. Simple, because he gives us free will to make our own choices. Up to us to make the right ones.
 
It’s pretty widely held Christian theology that those who sin, no matter how badly, and confess their sin and repent are saved through their belief in Jesus Christ as their Savior.

As demonstrated many times in the Bible, even the worst sinners can be saved if they believe— King David in the Old Testament and Saul/Paul in the New Testament are examples.
 
Good vs bad, light vs dark... all decided by free will. Our job (as i see it) is to go through this dirty life of choices and hope we come out clean enough to be accepted into his kingdom.

Nobody gets to say they played the game undefeated. Day by day and choice by choice we mold ourselves into the life we call our own. When i pray, I've began to include everybody instead of just those that i know bc i pray for humanity and not just myself.

Once in a while i still throw in- "a winning lotto ticket would be nice", but i rarely buy one so that would be miracle for sure.
 
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MacEntyre said:
But they are His creation, and He loves them enough to offer His grace, should they repent and have faith.
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Chuckman said:
I think a lot of people don't understand that it is a two-part deal, and they forget that second part.
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Well...that second part is the way...the ONLY way.
 
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Chuckman said:
I totally agree. Which brings up my frustration with the pop theology of "God loves everyone"/cheap grace.
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Human nature...I think folks want to believe they or others can "bring something to the table" to merit God's favor and/or earn salvation and I think it is due mostly to people not wanting to admit what they really are apart from God. Thing is, that is the first step of salvation...realizing that you are, by nature, a sinner and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, you can do / could ever do to merit salvation or pay your own sin debt.

"Cheap grace"? Well, His grace is free to us, but it was bought with a terrible price and my human mind cannot comprehend WHY He would love someone like me enough to send Christ to die in my stead. Make no mistake...I believe it right down to my bone marrow; I just don't understand it, because I know me.
 
Welp, I read this yesterday, and was busy all day; two dr appointments (all is well, I lost 10 pounds and have healthy eyes for an old feller), errands in town (which I did cause I was in town for the dr), trying to move again (that's a long story) and church last night.

So, I was all set to respond this morning, but it seems you guys already get it. God does love us all, just like we are, but he loves us too much to let us stay that way. Therefore, the plan of salvation, Jesus, and all of that.

What i think is missing in the "cheap grace" as well as the prosperity "gospels" is the lack of responsibility we want to take for ourselves. As was mentioned, we have to accept the gift, we need to live lives that show our appreciation to God for what he has done for us, as well as honor and worship him simply for who he is.

Yep, we can bring nothing, now or ever; that bothers a lot of people. But the other side of that pendulum swing is God will simply overlook my sins and still bless me, like a senile old grandfather.
 
cubrock said:
God is love. God does love everyone. It is the tough love He has, and shows as necessary, that some people don’t like to talk about.
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Tailhunter said:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. The whosoever believes in him shall not parish but have ever lasting life.
Sounds like he loves everyone enough to offer all a way out.
What a person does with that offering is up to the individual.
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How do you reconcile that "God loves everyone" with Psalms 11:5? I have looked in the scripture; I read where God loves the world and God loves his children, but I also see where he turns his back on those who do not repent and I cannot find anything that supports that He loves "everyone."

Dale Gribble said:
"Cheap grace"? Well, His grace is free to us, but it was bought with a terrible price and my human mind cannot comprehend.....
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By "cheap grace" I mean those who are eager to collect it but don't do their part in return.

Ponzerite said:
What i think is missing in the "cheap grace" as well as the prosperity "gospels" is the lack of responsibility we want to take for ourselves. As was mentioned, we have to accept the gift, we need to live lives that show our appreciation to God for what he has done for us, as well as honor and worship him simply for who he is.
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Yes, I think this is hinge upon Psalms 11:5.
 
search for the scriptures where God says " that he loves Jacob but hates Esau.

It also says that Esau sought repentance with tears but was not able to get it.

The scriptures do not contradict themselves

He was only sorry for the consequences of his poor decision brought upon himself not for his disobedience to God. Anytime one comes humbly before God he will abundantly pardon and forgive them. True repentence is what is missing these days.
 
I guess what I’m curious about is why you’re worried about who God might not like? Let’s say that you get an answer (derived through human understanding of the will of the divine, which is potentially already problematic) and you determine that God actually thinks some people or group of people are undeserving of his grace and love. What then? How will it change what you do?
Personally I don’t think God needs anyone to fight his battles. Being the omnipotent force sort of negates the need for anyone to step in on his behalf.
I also think any attempt to interpret the will of the almighty through what we see in this world is going to be difficult. Children die of cancer and people who do horrific harm sometimes live long luxurious lives. If we apply human reasoning to this, who does God hate?
Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. We’re all going to die at some point and we’ll all face the same judgment. If God finds some are beyond redemption he will deal with it then.
 
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Cataphract said:
I guess what I’m curious about is why you’re worried about who God might not like? Let’s say that you get an answer (derived through human understanding of the will of the divine, which is potentially already problematic) and you determine that God actually thinks some people or group of people are undeserving of his grace and love. What then? How will it change what you do?
Personally I don’t think God needs anyone to fight his battles. Being the omnipotent force sort of negates the need for anyone to step in on his behalf.
I also think any attempt to interpret the will of the almighty through what we see in this world is going to be difficult. Children die of cancer and people who do horrific harm sometimes live long luxurious lives. If we apply human reasoning to this, who does God hate?
Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. We’re all going to die at some point and we’ll all face the same judgment. If God finds some are beyond redemption he will deal with it at that point.
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I am not sure it's a simple as 'live and let live and let God sort it out.'

If I said, "God say's it's OK to sin; in fact, it's encouraged" (or any other derangement of scripture), does my brother (in Christ) not have a responsibility to help, educate, or correct?

I am not 'worried' about who God loves vs not. I do think "God loves everyone" bumper sticker pop theology is incongruent with the rest of scripture, and I am trying to examine/process that. But, I am open to changing my mind.
 
Chuckman said:
I am not sure it's a simple as 'live and let live and let God sort it out.'

If I said, "God say's it's OK to sin; in fact, it's encouraged" (or any other derangement of scripture), does my brother (in Christ) not have a responsibility to help, educate, or correct?

I am not 'worried' about who God loves vs not. I do think "God loves everyone" bumper sticker pop theology is incongruent with the rest of scripture, and I am trying to examine/process that. But, I am open to changing my mind.
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I guess I’m more worried about the practical applications of the concepts than the exact wording.
I think if God is truly upset with someone he can take care of it, now or in the hereafter. The message of God loving everyone equally makes sense to me. The thief on the cross next to Jesus sort of solidifies it. If God didn’t love all of us equally, why was he given the opportunity to reverse course at the very end? Surely he’d done enough in his life to be undeserving of it. The answer is that just like our own children God loves us and wants us to succeed. He is forgiving of our stumbles and is always holding the door open for us if we want to walk through it.
As far as “education or correction” I think that’s a dangerous road to go down. Back a couple hundred years the Catholic Church took that concept to an unfortunate conclusion in Spain. I’m more inclined to let God handle correction and stick to spreading the good word.
 
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Cataphract said:
I guess I’m more worried about the practical applications of the concepts than the exact wording.
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I think both are important. There are differences in wording and interpretation based on which Bible and which denomination for sure.

Cataphract said:
I think if God is truly upset with someone he can take care of it, now or in the hereafter.
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Agreed.

Cataphract said:
The message of God loving everyone equally makes sense to me. The thief on the cross next to Jesus sort of solidifies it. If God didn’t love all of us equally, why was he given the opportunity to reverse course at the very end? Surely he’d done enough in his life to be undeserving of it. The answer is that just like our own children God loves us and wants us to succeed. He is forgiving of our stumbles and is always holding the door open for us if we want to walk through it.
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If God loves everyone, then why is it not clear in scripture? And why would Psalms (11, and 5), and Malachi even be there? Now, I do think if that 'evildoer' and sinner repent, accept forgiveness and mercy, and leave that sin, then yes.

Cataphract said:
As far as “education or correction” I think that’s a dangerous road to go down. Back a couple hundred years the Catholic Church took that concept to an unfortunate conclusion in Spain. I’m more inclined to let God handle correction and stick to spreading the good word.
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RE: the 'education/correction', there are at least a dozen verses about doing this. I think what you are referring to is the Spanish Inquisition, which was about forcing non-Catholics to convert, which I think is a bit different, and extreme way, than Matthew 18: 15-17, Titus 3: 10-11. et al. We are called to do this.

To be fair, I am not being argumentative. I appreciate the discourse. Healthy debate helps me understand my perspective and allows the opportunity for me to change my mind.
 
Yes, was making a hyperbolic jump to the inquisition, but there’s a lot of other examples of people taking the idea of religious course correction a bit too far.
Unfortunately while I have some familiarity with scripture I am not enough of a scholar in the subject to be able to quote chapter and verse to really be able to dig in and discuss the topic at the level you might be looking for.
As such I tend to look at overall themes rather than individual verses. What it comes down to for me are a couple things.
God is omnipotent/omnipresent/omniscient. If he were going to create people who had no potential for redemption, why would he bother?
If we all have the same opportunity for that redemption then is that not evidence that he has the same love for all of us? I’ve seen no discussion of different levels of heaven for people who were devout their entire lives vs those who came to faith later. It’s the same reward for all…another indication of an equal love.
All sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord. I take this to mean that I have no standing to claim that I am any better than anyone else as I fail to meet the standards of “deserving” grace as much as anyone, even though I don’t commit the same sins as others. If God views all sins on equal footing, then to me it would stand to reason that all sinners are as well - and since again we’re all given the same opportunity to repent I think that indicates an equal love for all.
Basically I assume that no one is beyond redemption. Since the door to redemption is open until we draw our last breath I have no way of telling who is never going to make it and who just hasn’t gotten there yet.
 
I'm firmly in the "God Loves Everyone" camp. It's the sin He hates ( actually He can't see through it ). I love sinners, Jesus came for them; I can't stand the sin. Sin is the great separator, a holy God can't/won't dirty his eyes or hands. He had to turn His head when Christ was made sin on the cross.
God loved Adolph Hitler, God loved Genghis Khan, God loved Tamerlane, God loved Pol Pot. He sent Christ to pay their ransom from the wages of sin; they refused ( I think) the deal of salvation, which is repentance. It's His love that gives us free choice/free will, He chose to let us have the option because He loves us.
I love my kids; I'll still make them pay the price for their disobedience because I have to. I don't enjoy punishing them, but that's part of the covenant I have with Him and them. A holy God is a "righteous Judge", He's bound Himself by His word because He loves us. God doesn't owe you reasons or explanations or covenants; He gave us His word ( written Gospels and Jesus literally) because of His love. His covenant with us requires Him to Judge us, because that's part of the deal He gave us when sin entered the world.
The "30 minutes of silence in Heaven, after which all tears are wiped away " ? I believe ( could be wrong easily ) these tears are not our ( human) tears. I believe these tears are from Jesus for all those who didn't accept His gift/His ransom and have to be condemned by their choices to an eternity of pain and separation from Him. Remember John 3:16 talks about God's love, why Christ had to come here as a man, so none should perish...
That's literally what this means, so none should perish eternally/endure eternal separation from Him; remember, He can't/won't look at sin. As a parent ( we have children to enjoy a sliver of His experience/joy with us; He could create us all fully grown ) He will cry and wail for the creations/lost children which He will never get back. Yes, God Loves Everyone.

I could be wrong; I'll ask Him when I see Him. Good question, I've wondered this myself.
 
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Sometimes I think we “worry” too much about things that aren’t all that demanding of our consideration.

Whether we ask for Gods forgiveness of our sins when we are a young child or whether it is ten seconds before we die there is nothing cheap about “he is faithful and just to forgive us of all our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”.

God knows the intent of the heart. There in are the reasonings for his actions. He abhors sin. There is no middle ground, man is a fallen being, there is one way to rectify that situation. If you choose not to know God, he also chooses not to know you.
But you have till your last breath to do the only thing that allows you an eternity with him.
It’s all in the decision we make, the outcome is decided based on that play.
 
Tailhunter said:
It’s all in the decision we make, the outcome is decided based on that play.
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There’s a little church just south of Lillington on 210. They post some great “sayings” on their marquee out front.

One last year said, “In Life, there are lots of choices. In Eternity, there are only two."
 
xtp308 said:
God loved Adolph Hitler, God loved Genghis Khan, God loved Tamerlane, God loved Pol Pot. He sent Christ to pay their ransom from the wages of sin; they refused ( I think) the deal of salvation, which is repentance.
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Using this as a segue… my wife made an interesting comment the other day, about how she believes the “life before your eyes” statement means that upon death, you will get to review your life and the impact it has had on others.
In our particular case, we hope that my narcissistic mother will finally understand the pain she’s inflicted upon others.
 
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noway2 said:
Using this as a segue… my wife made an interesting comment the other day, about how she believes the “life before your eyes” statement means that upon death, you will get to review your life and the impact it has had on others.
In our particular case, we hope that my narcissistic mother will finally understand the pain she’s inflicted upon others.
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What would even be better … that she turned her life over to the Lord. Got to live the rest of her life in peace and be a blessing to those around her.
 
Chuckman said:
I have heard this for the past 54 years of my life. But in Psalms 11:5, there is scripture to the contrary ("The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked [2] and those who love violence his soul hates", NIV).

I feel like the "God loves everyone" theology has come about with the prevalent 'pop grace' theology that stresses everyone gets grace and mercy and forgiveness but declines to mention repentance and turning from sinful behavior. It seems anathema that God doesn't love everyone, but it has become a bumper sticker.

I struggle with this some. I'd love to hear others' perspectives.
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I think the big thing is that we assume God is like us. WE are only capable of one emotion at a time. We love someone OR we hate someone. The love and mercy and compassion and tenderness of God is clearly over ALL his creation. In one sense, God does clearly love all men. OTOH, the Bible also says that "the one who loves wickedness, His soul hates."

To me it is all wrapped up in my inability to parse out the infinite God. My emotions have a reference point in Him. This does NOT mean that His emotions have their reference point in mine (nor that my limited rational ability to parse out my own emotions are normative in the descriptions I can make about God).

One unfortunate thing about the emphasis on the love of God in evangelism is that it is a MARKETING based approach, rather than a biblical approach. Starting out "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" is simply not the approach the NT church took. God's love IS amazing and astounding and jaw dropping, but the picture of God sitting in my corner cheering for me and desperately hoping I will "make the right choice" is simply unbiblical.

There are lots of other factors at play here, including issues of God's sovereignty in our salvation itself, but that is a deeper issue than I think would be wise to tackle in a discussion like this.
 
Hammer12b said:
He gives us free will and we can accept Him or deny Him.
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I have always wondered what people mean when they say "free will."

Do they mean that our will has no factors which determine our choices? Then my choice is non contingent on ANYTHING.
Do they mean that our will is determined by something, but still meaningful? Then it is not "free" as it is contingent, but meaningful.
What determines our choices?

This is a very crucial issue, btw. If you have never read Jonathan Edwards on this issue, I would commend him to anyone in here.

Amazon product ASIN 1549770144
or
for audiobook link
 
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tanstaafl72555 said:
I think the big thing is that we assume God is like us. WE are only capable of one emotion at a time. We love someone OR we hate someone. The love and mercy and compassion and tenderness of God is clearly over ALL his creation. In one sense, God does clearly love all men. OTOH, the

To me it is all wrapped up in my inability to parse out the infinite God. My emotions have a reference point in Him. This does NOT mean that His emotions have their reference point in mine (nor that my limited rational ability to parse out my own emotions are normative in the descriptions I can make about God).

One unfortunate thing about the emphasis on the love of God in evangelism is that it is a MARKETING based approach, rather than a biblical approach. Starting out "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" is simply not the approach the NT church took. God's love IS amazing and astounding and jaw dropping, but the picture of God sitting in my corner cheering for me and desperately hoping I will "make the right choice" is simply unbiblical.

There are lots of other factors at play here, including issues of God's sovereignty in our salvation itself, but that is a deeper issue than I think would be wise to tackle in a discussion like
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These are thought provoking conversations but I’ll ask again about the ramifications of us worrying about whether or not there is equal love or whether God hates those who love wickedness. Let’s suppose you find a group that you just know loves wickedness so God hates them. What then? How do you treat that group?
When humans start interpreting the will of the divine and acting upon those that they deem wicked things get to dark places pretty quickly. I’d rather leave judgement to God and assume as I stated earlier that no one is beyond redemption and it’s not my place to judge them more or less worthy than myself.
 
Cataphract said:
These are thought provoking conversations but I’ll ask again about the ramifications of us worrying about whether or not there is equal love or whether God hates those who love wickedness. Let’s suppose you find a group that you just know loves wickedness so God hates them. What then? How do you treat that group?
When humans start interpreting the will of the divine and acting upon those that they deem wicked things get to dark places pretty quickly. I’d rather leave judgement to God and assume as I stated earlier that no one is beyond redemption and it’s not my place to judge them more or less worthy than myself.
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In my view, once you’ve done what you can do, there’s nothing wrong with figuratively kicking off the dust on your sandals from that town, and moving on.
 
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fieldgrade said:
In my view, once you’ve done what you can do, there’s nothing wrong with figuratively kicking off the dust on your sandals from that town, and moving on.
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Wish I could like this more than once. You’re going to be judged on what’s in your heart not on how many witches you’ve burnt.
 
Chuckman said:
This is also scriptural.
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Indeed it is.

Luke 9:5 King James Version (KJV)
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
 
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Cataphract said:
These are thought provoking conversations but I’ll ask again about the ramifications of us worrying about whether or not there is equal love or whether God hates those who love wickedness. Let’s suppose you find a group that you just know loves wickedness so God hates them. What then? How do you treat that group?
When humans start interpreting the will of the divine and acting upon those that they deem wicked things get to dark places pretty quickly. I’d rather leave judgement to God and assume as I stated earlier that no one is beyond redemption and it’s not my place to judge them more or less worthy than myself.
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What if it's not a 'group,' but, say, a brother or sister (literal, not one in Christ)? Or son or daughter? It's not interpreting when it's built into scripture. I agree that interpretation is dangerous.
 
Chuckman said:
What if it's not a 'group,' but, say, a brother or sister (literal, not one in Christ)? Or son or daughter? It's not interpreting when it's built into scripture. I agree that interpretation is dangerous.
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I don’t forever ignore them, I just let them go their way, provided I don’t need to put distance between them and me for some other compelling reason. Like safety or liability.
 
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