The Indian vs the Arrow 1911 Shootout

wvsig

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So today I took 3 1911's to the range. One bone stock Colt 1911 Classic NIB, a Colt 1911 Don Williams Custom and a GI No Name in 9mm. All are full size Govt length pistols. I shot the drill of the month with 2 of them. I posted in that thread detaining how that went. I shot decent groups but shot them slow. I then proceeded to go through some other shooting drills at 7 and 10 yards. I ended the days shooting at 3 3" targets at 15 yards. I can't remember the exact round count but I think I shot about 12-15 rounds out of each gun give or take. This is a pic of the 3 targets.

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You can tell which one was the 9mm by the size of the holes but the other 2 look pretty similar. One is shot from a bone stock $700 gun the other was shot out of a full house custom that lets say cost more than $700. ;) What this once again showed me is that it is more about the Indian than the arrow. The stock Colt with a NM barrel and stock everything shot really really well. It was just as accurate in my hands as my fancy boy pretty Colt. On paper at 15 yards there really was not any meaningful difference on paper. The targets are really more about me and my ability as a shooter or lack of ability depending how you are looking at it than the gun in my hand.

Now all that said there are somethings that the stock Colt did not do well. It needs to be dehorned. It has sharp edges all over it including in the beavertaill area of the grip safety. I was tearing my hand up after about 50 rounds through it. The trigger after a bit of spring tweaking was breaking at 3.75 lb +/- but it has a some creep. The sights are good enough but would not be great for fast shooting. Black on black with no contrast. So there are things which need to be improved but all in all its a shooter. I can see why these new Colt Classics are selling for less than the old 70 Reproduction. The older 70 Repro was a much more finished gun. It had less sharp edges. It had polished flats. It was a bit more refined and less rough around the edges. Still as a base foundation of a retro build this new Colt Classic is perfect start. It needs a little refinement. It needs to be finished IMO but after a few touches here and there and it will be a fine 1911 even if it doesn't shoot any better than it did today. :D

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In all my shooting years 60+ I have personally known exactly 3 men that could outshoot a stock gun....THREE

I saw a dude at the range today who could. He shoots bullseye for the National Guard Bullseye team in NC. I have seen him shoot the last two times I was at the range. I think our cycles have timed up. LOL He was shooting black only at 25 and 50 yards into bullseye centers. It was impressive.

That said there are reasons to clean up a stock gun. I do not think I could shoot 100 rounds out of this new Colt without a glove because they left so many sharp edges. It needs to be "finished" IMHO.
 
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A set of Bomars whether on a rib or machined in...with a .125 front sight. A man with a 32 inch sleeve holding hard at 50, the front sight covers 14 inches of the target...when the light bars on each side are included it becomes 21 inches. This to say, those "goomers" shoot groups every outing that are optically Impossible when measure against the black bull they are going for. The highest score ever fired at Camp Perry in the National matches aggregate was fired by CPO Don Hamilton in 1969. Yes, 1969! Everybody since with their red dots and other optics have never beaten him. I have Don's centerfire pistol. I wouldn't ever want him to see a piker like me try to shoot that wonderful machine.
Next time you see that gentleman ask him if he has ever broken 2600?? I'd bet not.....That is rare air!!!!
 
A set of Bomars whether on a rib or machined in...with a .125 front sight. A man with a 32 inch sleeve holding hard at 50, the front sight covers 14 inches of the target...when the light bars on each side are included it becomes 21 inches. This to say, those "goomers" shoot groups every outing that are optically Impossible when measure against the black bull they are going for. The highest score ever fired at Camp Perry in the National matches aggregate was fired by CPO Don Hamilton in 1969. Yes, 1969! Everybody since with their red dots and other optics have never beaten him. I have Don's centerfire pistol. I wouldn't ever want him to see a piker like me try to shoot that wonderful machine.
Next time you see that gentleman ask him if he has ever broken 2600?? I'd bet not.....That is rare air!!!!

This is the dude who I saw shoot today. He won the US Novice Champion Trophy at the All-Army Competition 2018. I don't know a lot about bullseye shooting so I don't know what 2600 means but this guy is pretty pretty pretty good.

https://vaguard.dodlive.mil/2018/03/24/11244/

Paquette earned the top spot as 1st Place Novice in the Combat Pistol Excellence in Competition Match, 3rd Place Novice in the Multi-Gun Championship Match and 3rd Place Novice in the Pistol Individual Championship. Given his success in the individual matches, Paquette earned the 1st Place Novice Overall Individual Championship Trophy, received a coin from Gen. Mark A. Milley, the U.S. Army Chief of Staff, and was also awarded the M1 Garand Service Rifle.
 
I don't know a lot about bullseye shooting so I don't know what 2600 means but this guy is pretty pretty pretty good.
2700 is the most anybody can score...it has Never been done. Unlike the Bianchi Cup where 20 or so will shoot perfect scores and be decided by Xs, Bullseye or 2700 has never been shot. At Camp Perry during the national Matches CPO Hamilton shot 2668. It has stood for over 50 years!. Really Good that is to say Excellent shooters never break 2600.
 
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2700 is the most anybody can score...it has Never been done. Unlike the Bianchi Cup where 20 or so will shoot perfect scores and be decided by Xs, Bullseye or 2700 has never been shot. At Camp Perry during the national Matches CPO Hamilton shot 2668. It has stood for over 50 years!. Really Good that is to say Excellent shooters never break 2600.

All I know is compared to me this dude was a machine. It made me want to pack up my toys and go home....

 
The target on the right is pretty impressive, since the holes are smaller? Is that the no name 9 mm ? Either way, pretty good shooting..
 
The target on the right is pretty impressive, since the holes are smaller? Is that the no name 9 mm ? Either way, pretty good shooting..

Yes that is the No name 9mm. Thanks sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.;)

hIIFvhT.jpg
 
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A set of Bomars whether on a rib or machined in...with a .125 front sight. A man with a 32 inch sleeve holding hard at 50, the front sight covers 14 inches of the target...when the light bars on each side are included it becomes 21 inches. This to say, those "goomers" shoot groups every outing that are optically Impossible when measure against the black bull they are going for. The highest score ever fired at Camp Perry in the National matches aggregate was fired by CPO Don Hamilton in 1969. Yes, 1969! Everybody since with their red dots and other optics have never beaten him. I have Don's centerfire pistol. I wouldn't ever want him to see a piker like me try to shoot that wonderful machine.
Next time you see that gentleman ask him if he has ever broken 2600?? I'd bet not.....That is rare air!!!!
I think Herschel Andersen upped the record to 2680-159X in 74. Those handgunners of that period were some very hard holders. Too many spray and prayers today playing with handguns to ever match the fields of precision handgunners back in the day.
 
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I think Herschel Andersen upped the record to 2680-159X in 74. Those handgunners of that period were some very hard holders. Too many spray and prayers today playing with handguns to ever match the fields of precision handgunners back in the day.
He did BUT it was Not at Camp Perry National Matches.....I think it might have been in Alabama?? Not At Camp Perry...CPO Hamilton's record still stands...
 
In all my shooting years 60+ I have personally known exactly 3 men that could outshoot a stock gun....THREE

What is “outshooting” a stock gun?

Is it being able to ascribe a smaller MOA/inch-at-distance value of human error to the shooter than the inherent mechanical accuracy of the pistol?

(I.e., if a pistol shoots 1.5” off of a ransom rest at 25 yards and the shooter shoots a 2.5” group freestyle at that distance, are they “outshooting” the gun by accounting for only 1” of the overall error in the group?)
 
What is “outshooting” a stock gun?

Is it being able to ascribe a smaller MOA/inch-at-distance value of human error to the shooter than the inherent mechanical accuracy of the pistol?

(I.e., if a pistol shoots 1.5” off of a ransom rest at 25 yards and the shooter shoots a 2.5” group freestyle at that distance, are they “outshooting” the gun by accounting for only 1” of the overall error in the group?)
No sir, I have seen folks that could outshoot a RR. We have one here set up all the time at B&M HQ.
What I was talking about is for anybody that could take a gun from the box and shoot a group that they could then do better by changing anything mechanical. Like the barrel. Most folks can't eek out the small difference a barrel would make. Sometimes a change of ammo will tighten groups more than a mechanical change. There is so little difference mechanically between a 2 1'2 inch gun and a 1 1/2 inch gun that people just can't "use" the improvement
We recently had a Colt 9mm here that we put 3 barrels in...a Colt...a Kart..and a BarSto. The difference was negligible.
Certainly not anything 99% of shooters would know.


Sorry I took so long...I was shooting ….
 
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so just what is it? i have a friend wanting to buy a good 1911 in 9mm ..

In .45, he can buy most anything he wants and with decent mags it will run.

In 9mm? all bets are off.

Tell him to buy a semi-custom, i.e. Guncrafter, Wilson, Nighthawk, Les Baer, Ed Brown, or otherwise it’s a crap shoot as to whether it will run.
 
so just what is it? i have a friend wanting to buy a good 1911 in 9mm ..

It is a Guncrafter No Name Govt in 9mm with some upgrades.

UavkyvJ.jpg


J9EVicq.jpg


F1hSsU2.jpg



https://www.guncrafterindustries.com/no-name-government/

  • Forged Steel Full Size Frame with 5″ Forged Steel Slide
  • 9mm upgrade
  • Ball End Mill Cut
  • Flush and Recessed Slide Stop
  • Magwell with Functional Blend
  • Black Melonite Finish-Standard
  • Tool Steel fully machined Hammer, Sear, and Disconnector-Standard
  • Slide Stop fully machined from Bar Stock-Standard
  • HD barrel bushing-Standard
  • Slide Top Serrations-Standard
  • Match Grade Stainless Steel Barrel-Standard
  • Solid Curved or Straight Match Grade Trigger-Standard
  • Beveled Magazine Well-Standard
  • Patented 90 degree 15 LPI Checkering on Front Strap and Mainspring Housing-Standard
  • GI Tritium Sights, Blacked Out Front Sight Post and SquareSight-Standard
  • Fully Dehorned-Standard
  • Extreme Reliability Work-Standard
  • Two fitted and Tuned Magazines-Standard
  • Black GI Logo Cordura Case-Standard
 
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In .45, he can buy most anything he wants and with decent mags it will run.

In 9mm? all bets are off.

Tell him to buy a semi-custom, i.e. Guncrafter, Wilson, Nighthawk, Les Baer, Ed Brown, or otherwise it’s a crap shoot as to whether it will run.

I tend to agree. I got lucky with my Dan Wesson Valkyrie. It has been 100% but other DWs in 9mm have issues. Even when you get to the semi-custom or full house custom the risk of getting a non 100% 1911 goes up when it is chambered in 9mm.

z5tCWA5.jpg


l7ShSdp.jpg


But I still carry this....

W2u5VNh.jpg


Ei1uOV3.jpg
 
It is a Guncrafter No Name Govt in 9mm with some upgrades.

UavkyvJ.jpg


J9EVicq.jpg


F1hSsU2.jpg



https://www.guncrafterindustries.com/no-name-government/

  • Forged Steel Full Size Frame with 5″ Forged Steel Slide
  • 9mm upgrade
  • Ball End Mill Cut
  • Flush and Recessed Slide Stop
  • Magwell with Functional Blend
  • Black Melonite Finish-Standard
  • Tool Steel fully machined Hammer, Sear, and Disconnector-Standard
  • Slide Stop fully machined from Bar Stock-Standard
  • HD barrel bushing-Standard
  • Slide Top Serrations-Standard
  • Match Grade Stainless Steel Barrel-Standard
  • Solid Curved or Straight Match Grade Trigger-Standard
  • Beveled Magazine Well-Standard
  • Patented 90 degree 15 LPI Checkering on Front Strap and Mainspring Housing-Standard
  • GI Tritium Sights, Blacked Out Front Sight Post and SquareSight-Standard
  • Fully Dehorned-Standard
  • Extreme Reliability Work-Standard
  • Two fitted and Tuned Magazines-Standard
  • Black GI Logo Cordura Case-Standard
That is a beauty right there.
 
I tend to agree. I got lucky with my Dan Wesson Valkyrie. It has been 100% but other DWs in 9mm have issues. Even when you get to the semi-custom or full house custom the risk of getting a non 100% 1911 goes up when it is chambered in 9mm.

z5tCWA5.jpg


l7ShSdp.jpg


But I still carry this....

W2u5VNh.jpg


Ei1uOV3.jpg
I bought a blued Valor 9mm NIB shortly after they quit making them and sadly it wouldn’t run right.
 
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I bought a blued Valor NIB shortly after they quit making them and sadly it wouldn’t run right.

I remember. The 2 1911s in 9mm I have are the the last ones I will buy. They cover my bases for a 9mm gun. I have to say that the GI is unbelievable smooth. Its recoil so so minimal. Its action literally feels like it is on ball bearings. If fires and it almost doesn't feel like it cycled but it did. If I was any good I would be able to meet the par time on the Baer Challenge. Even in my hands this gun clears "The Test" in under 8 seconds clean. I got it used. The previous owner shot 1o0 rounds. If I were building it I would do a short trigger and do a U notch rear with a Gold Dot front but the guns is so nice as it is I just decided to leave it as is.
 
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Owning a 1911 in 9mm should negatively impact ones credit score...

And this is from someone who loves 9mm and 1911s.


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Owning a 1911 in anything other than 10mm should negatively impact ones credit score...

And this is from someone who loves 9mm and 1911s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FIFY



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