After 50 Years, the Army and Marine Corps Are Closing In on Dumping Brass-Cased Ammo

AR10ShooterinNC

Happy to be here
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Messages
12,939
Location
High Point
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
https://www.yahoo.com/news/50-years-army-marine-corps-095548994.html


After more than 50 years of failed attempts, the U.S. military may be on the verge of ending its love affair with brass-cased ammunition, something that predates the Spanish-American War.

Traditional brass has dominated military small-arms ammunition since U.S. troops stormed up San Juan Hill, Cuba, in 1898. The robust material performs well in the violent, super-heated space of weapon chambers during firing, but its sheer weight has always been a problem for infantrymen and logisticians alike.

Advancements in body armor, communications equipment and other tactical gear have weighed down U.S. combat troops in the Army and Marine Corps, pushing individual loads well past 100 pounds and degrading service members' physical performance, U.S. military studies have shown.

Both services have launched multiple efforts to lighten the weapons and equipment grunts carried while fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, but ammunition weight has always been an Achilles' heel for these efforts.
 
I can remember a company had caseless ammo in the late 80s or early 90s "Some assault rifles have used caseless ammunition. One of the better-known weapons of this type is the G11 made by Heckler & Koch as a potential replacement for the G3 battle rifle. Although the G11 never entered full production, it went through a number of prototype stages as well as field testing, including testing as part of the American Advanced Combat Rifle program. While it was scheduled to be adopted by the West German military with a plan set out to procure 300,000 G11K2 rifles over a period from 1990 to 2002, the expenses created by the reunification of Germany and the impossibility of modifying the G11 to use NATO-standard ammunition led to the cancellation of the G11 project and the adoption of a cheaper, more conventional NATO-standardised assault rifle, the 5.56 mm G36. The G11's caseless ammunition was later used as the basis for the caseless round development in the US Lightweight Small Arms Technologies program"
 
I’d be more concerned with what it will do for ammo availability in popular calibers.

If plastic costs less than brass, then although it kills the secondary market for the brass (and reloads) it should in theory make the price of commercial ammo drop too. Eventually.

I always assumed that's why steel case ammo is cheaper than brass cased, the material cost of the case is lower. Could also be lower quality bullets in the steel case stuff too driving the price down.
 
I saw an article a while back about a case with a brass base and polymer up the sides.
Anyway, I will believe they are switching when I see it actually happen.
 
Kinda makes you wonder where the line on 2A will be so far as weapons and technology are concerned. Like, let’s say for argument that some futuristic laser rifles existed, would citizens be allowed to own them, or would they be made illegal before we even had a chance....
 
Last edited:
Kinda makes you wonder where the line on 2A will be so far as weapons and technology are concerned. Like, let’s say for argument that some futuristic laser rifles existed, would citizens believe allowed to own them, or would they be made illegal before we even had a chance....

I don’t wonder at all.
 
Kinda makes you wonder where the line on 2A will be so far as weapons and technology are concerned. Like, let’s say for argument that some futuristic laser rifles existed, would citizens be allowed to own them, or would they be made illegal before we even had a chance....
well, it's just common sense to cap plasma rifles at the 40W range. anything higher would be too powerful.
 
The military has been flirting with caseless ammo since the 1960s. HK developed a caseless rifle decades ago, but the military wound up not liking it. This is really nothing new. At some point, it wouldn’t surprise me if this all went somewhere, but we aren’t in imminent danger of losing brass cased ammo.
 
Last edited:
Could they use alum in rifles. I prefer alum 9mm. Because of the price and it’s a noticeable weight difference when lugging a range bad around.
 
Last edited:
Could they use alum in rifles. I prefer alum 9mm. Because of the price and it’s a noticeable weight difference when lugging a range bad around.
That’s an interesting question - why do we see steel cased rifle ammo, but no aluminum case?
I *think* aluminum has the strength for it. It is not weaker than brass.
The one disadvantage I could see is melting point? Aluminum melts around 1250, while brass is around 1700. Could localized chamber temps get high enough in a rifle that aluminum melting becomes an issue? I wouldn’t think so, but I don’t know.
Aluminum is 1/3 the weight of brass, and in my experience it is about 1/2 the cost per pound vs brass.
 
Last edited:
Why can't the case be made of super highly compressed explosive or maybe it's not a case at all, just a compressed molded explosive with a bullet glued on top. I love reloading so I hope whatever they do fails miserably.
 
The military has been flirting with caseless ammo since the 1960s. HK developed a caseless rifle decades ago, but the military wound up not liking it. This is really nothing new. At some point, it wouldn’t surprise me if this all went somewhere, but we aren’t in imminent danger of losing brass cased ammo.
Nothing new at all. I have several rifles that use caseless ammo. You have to load them from the muzzle though
 
Last edited:
Why can't the case be made of super highly compressed explosive or maybe it's not a case at all, just a compressed molded explosive with a bullet glued on top. I love reloading so I hope whatever they do fails miserably.

This is basically what the caseless ammo was. Some of the issues people had with it were how it would conduct heat over sustained firing. From what I have read, one of the benefits of brass (or any metallic cartridge) is that when it is extracted it sinks a bunch of the heat away from the chamber. Under sustained fire there is a chance the chamber would get so hot that it would just start cooking off rounds. I believe this may also be the hold up with some polymer/plastic style cases being marketed. For general use it may be fine, but think of how much grief and false info people used to give steel cased ammo with the lacquer on it. "It'll melt and jam yer gun!"
 
The military has been flirting with caseless ammo since the 1960s. HK developed a caseless rifle decades ago, but the military wound up not liking it. This is really nothing new. At some point, it wouldn’t surprise me if this all went somewhere, but we aren’t in imminent danger of losing brass cased ammo.
 
Think one of the bullet design’s was called the gyrojet . Didn’t catch on too well.
 
Heard they are working with a rigid, wax-like substance to be used in place of brass as the cartridge case.


19B3E6C2-0731-4906-ADA3-5CE86D5596FF.jpeg

An additional benefit of this is after the projectile is pulled, the propellant dumped and the case head cut off, the remaining case can be enjoyed as a tasty snack.
 
Under sustained fire there is a chance the chamber would get so hot that it would just start cooking off rounds.
I have heard of this all my life. With brass and steel cases. Anybody ever actually SEEN this. I can't remember a single case of this at Knob Creek where they shoot belts of ammo 100 yards long.
I thinking a hand and shoulder fired Laser Gun might be the way to goo_O
 
I have heard of this all my life. With brass and steel cases. Anybody ever actually SEEN this. I can't remember a single case of this at Knob Creek where they shoot belts of ammo 100 yards long.
I thinking a hand and shoulder fired Laser Gun might be the way to goo_O

They were never firing caseless ammo...
 
That's not what I meant at all. I was talking about cased ammo. Have you never heard the story of hot chambers cooking off ammo!?

Sure, but it was brought up above in reference to caseless ammo as a potential drawback, in particular because the current cases remove some of the heat from the chamber (and insulate the powder from the case for a little while too I suppose).

Even if it has never really been a problem with cased ammo, it could be for caseless - hotter chamber in direct contact with the charge.
 
That's not what I meant at all. I was talking about cased ammo. Have you never heard the story of hot chambers cooking off ammo!?
Yes, I have heard of it. But this discussion was about caseless of non-metallic ammo. I didn't catch that you were discussing only brass cased. And no, I have never experienced it, but I have heard about it happening from people who know a bit more than I do about fully automatic fire. From sources I have read its especially an issue with chainguns as their cyclic rate is pretty ridiculous.
 
It must be very rare. Again, never heard of it happening at Knob Creek. The perfect opportunity. Just so you'll know, I shot caseless ammo from an HK about the time you were learning to ride a 2 wheel bike. So Yes, I am vaguely familiar with your conversation concept. Have you ever fired any?? Just wondering? If not I can only assume your content is from other than personal experience.
 
"Cook Offs". I had it happen in my M4A1 during a mad minute. Only takes about 180rds full auto in a M4A1 Govt bbl in one minute. That's the reason for the heavier SOCOM profile to act as a heat sink. You normally don't see it with open bolt guns unless you have a round stuck in a hot chamber. Hence reason for a open bolt full auto guns to keep ammo out of hot chambers. When the minigun malfunctions and has loaded rounds in those barrels, they WILL cook off unless immediately cleared. Seen it numerous times teaching malfunction drills on that gun.

In 1961 Daisy came out with a caseless .22 VL ammunition. It was discontinued in 1969 after ATF got them for manufacturing firearms without a license.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_V/L

Going further back in history we have Horace Smith and Danial Wesson in 1855 with the Volcanic Repeating Pistol. They were trying to get caseless ammo working for the gun. This was also before cased ammunition. That was the start of Smith and Wesson firearms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_Repeating_Arms


CD
 
Last edited:
I have heard of this all my life. With brass and steel cases. Anybody ever actually SEEN this. I can't remember a single case of this at Knob Creek where they shoot belts of ammo 100 yards long.
I thinking a hand and shoulder fired Laser Gun might be the way to goo_O
Yes, have seen it happen. Shooting suppressed full auto Bushmaster. Had the barrel and suppressor red hot. Stopped firing and it cooked of 2-3 more. Not sure you could get a non suppressed firearm hot enough. We were pretty impressed with ourselves that day. They were training guns that were going to scrap when we were done.
 
"Cook Offs". I had it happen in my M4A1 during a mad minute. Only takes about 180rds full auto in a M4A1 Govt bbl in one minute. That's the reason for the heavier SOCOM profile to act as a heat sink. You normally don't see it with open bolt guns unless you have a round stuck in a hot chamber. Hence reason for a open bolt full auto guns to keep ammo out of hot chambers. When the minigun malfunctions and has loaded rounds in those barrels, they WILL cook off unless immediately cleared. Seen it numerous times teaching malfunction drills on that gun.

In 1961 Daisy came out with a caseless .22 VL ammunition. It was discontinued in 1969 after ATF got them for manufacturing firearms without a license.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_V/L

Going further back in history we have Horace Smith and Danial Wesson in 1855 with the Volcanic Repeating Pistol. They were trying to get caseless ammo working for the gun. This was also before cased ammunition. That was the start of Smith and Wesson firearms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_Repeating_Arms


CD
Yes, have seen it happen. Shooting suppressed full auto Bushmaster. Had the barrel and suppressor red hot. Stopped firing and it cooked of 2-3 more. Not sure you could get a non suppressed firearm hot enough. We were pretty impressed with ourselves that day. They were training guns that were going to scrap when we were done.
Thanks men. I always treasure first hand experiences!! I shot caseless ammo in an HK with caseless HK ammo in 1982. Apparently we were too invested in the way we were doing things. Gun was Clunky , when fired seemed just like another HK.
 
I was in Germany 88-90' when the wall came down and the two Germany's were unified. I remember the G11 being bulky, didn't get to shoot it however. Another footnote in history.

Forgot to mention one thing about the minigun. When you let off the trigger, feeding stops immediately. The barrels still spin for another 1/2 second clearing the gun so no rounds remain in the barrels. That's to prevent cook offs.


CD
 
Thanks men. I always treasure first hand experiences!! I shot caseless ammo in an HK with caseless HK ammo in 1982. Apparently we were too invested in the way we were doing things. Gun was Clunky , when fired seemed just like another HK.


According to reports, the HKs had problems with cook-off in the 60s and early 70s. By 82, they had solved that problem.

I’m jealous you got to shoot one.
 
Last edited:
Kinda like my Laser rifle??:rolleyes:
why a rifle, when you can put the laser beam on a shark?

giphy.gif


tumblr_nsa3pvazC41r4peomo2_250.gifv
 
Back
Top Bottom