this 240v wiring seems sketchy to me...

Jayne

Jayne

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Replaced our electric range with a new one, and the wiring required to make it work looks wrong to me. @Jerzsubbie provided me with a nice picture I'll include there to explain what's working and why I question it.

For any 4 wire 240v thing I've ever wired, there are red (hot), black (hot), white (neutral), green (ground). With a meter you can test 120v from red to white and black to white, and going red to black gets you your 240v.

Inside the stove you've got connections like this:

index.php


Our house is from the early 80s, but has a 4 wire plug for the stove. When you connect it per the 4 wire instructions it doesn't work (which is how the installers did it). We looked at the old stove which also had a 4 wire plug but inside found that white and green were tied together. It's been that way for 6+ years since we moved in. Wiring the new stove that way with green/white tied and it works.

That just seems wrong to me, it's like the neutral doesn't go anywhere and you're completing the circuit over the ground wire? Maybe it works because there is nothing else on the circuit except the stove so there is no way anything else is going to pick up a huge voltage off the ground? Or maybe the house is an electrical fire waiting to happen?

They make a 14-50p to 10-50r adapter (popular with Tesla owners it appears) so what's the pinout on that? Are they just tying white and green together inside?
 
Neutral and ground should be tied together.
Same in three phase.

A separate neutral is code required if you use a leg for 120V BUT it's not a must do for a jackleg.
 
Ummm...neutral and ground should NOT be tied together.

Bonding them at the main service panel is acceptable, but is the ONLY place it's done. (They are not to be bonded/connected at sub-panels or anywhere else.) This is a safety issue.

Neutral and ground SHOULD be at the same potential, true. But the key difference is that neutral is a normally a CURRENT CARRYING part of the electrical circuit and ground is NOT.

Ground should ONLY EVER be carrying current under fault conditions...such as a short from a hot lead to the frame of your equipment, for example.

Somebody in the past has jiggered the writing for this 4-wire circuit and it should be fixed properly.
 
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RetiredUSNChief said:
Ummm...neutral and ground should NOT be tied together.

Bonding them at the main service panel is acceptable, but is the ONLY place it's done. (They are not to be bonded/connected at sub-panels or anywhere else.) This is a safety issue.

Neutral and ground SHOULD be at the same potential, true. But the key difference is that neutral is a normally a CURRENT CARRYING part of the electrical circuit and ground is NOT.

Ground should ONLY EVER be carrying current under fault conditions...such as a short from a hot lead to the frame of your equipment, for example.

Somebody in the past has jiggered the writing for this 4-wire circuit and it should be fixed properly.
Click to expand...
^^^THIS!

Most ranges DO use 120VAC and 230VAC. The 120V is for accessories, clock, controls, etc. The current return for 120V is the neutral. I'd get that outlet looked at by a qualified professional. Could be a burned up neutral wire in the wall, not connected properly in panel, etc. I've seen many ranges, dryers, etc., have a neutral get loose at a termination point, arc for extended periods of time, and burn or melt the end of the wiring off. This usually requires replacing the wiring and outlet.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 
Is the neutral bonded to ground in the panel? That is where it generally should be done for safety, as noted above.
 
CHRIS_WNC said:
There are bonding straps in some appliances that tie the neutral and ground together inside the appliance.

CHRIS
Click to expand...
That would make the ground a return path for line current. The ground should be bonded to the chassis but not the neutral.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Ummm...neutral and ground should NOT be tied together.

Bonding them at the main service panel is acceptable, but is the ONLY place it's done. (They are not to be bonded/connected at sub-panels or anywhere else.) This is a safety issue.

Neutral and ground SHOULD be at the same potential, true. But the key difference is that neutral is a normally a CURRENT CARRYING part of the electrical circuit and ground is NOT.

Ground should ONLY EVER be carrying current under fault conditions...such as a short from a hot lead to the frame of your equipment, for example.

Somebody in the past has jiggered the writing for this 4-wire circuit and it should be fixed properly.
Click to expand...

What Chief said.

As old as your house is, the original wiring was probably 2 conductor with ground. Stoves back then did not have the computerized controls that require a neutral.

Intentionally energizing a ground wire is a bad idea, especially if it is bare copper wire. If it’s insulated, that’s not so bad but still outside of code.
 
If you are up for it, remove the panel cover and look at the wires from the double pole breaker, see if the white is connected to the white nuetral bus bar and bare ground is at the ground bus bar. Could be one is loose or not connected. Code changes for multi dwelling and then for single homes while ago. Pro would run 6-3 w ground and use three wire outlet, instead of buying rolls if 6-2 and 6-3. I'm not an electrician.
 
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A further explanation:

A lot of people don't understand why it's unacceptable to tie the neutral to the ground. Sadly, sometimes that extends to the professionals responsible for house wiring. There are even morons within the electrical inspector world who don't understand. It is acceptable for most people who do not understand electrical wiring requirements, because they're not the ones charged with ensuring things are correct. It is NOT acceptable for professionals, or for people who don't understand it and choose to dabble in wiring anyway.

As I stated in my earlier posting, the difference between neutral and ground is that the neutral is a current carrying conductor, whereas the ground is not supposed to be. Neutral is part of a circuit in which current flows.

If you have an electrical load operating, such as a refrigerator, stove, lamp, drill, etc., there is current flow from the hot wire, through the electrical appliance, and into the neutral wire. If you touch ANY part of this electrical circuit while it's operating (the hot wire, the wiring inside the appliance, or the neutral wire) you will receive an electrical shock.

This is because while the appliance is operating (like a light switch in "ON" or the trigger depressed on a drill), this completes the electrical circuit which allows current to flow through the device.

If your appliance (and house wiring) is wired correctly, when the light switch/trigger is "OFF" (open), then touching the hot lead will expose you to electrical shock, but the neutral will not.

The fact that the neutral lead carries current when the appliance is operating is the reason why it's insulated.

The ground lead, however, is NOT designed to be a normal, current carrying conductor. And because of this, it's not insulated. The ground lead is there to provide a safe alternate path for current to flow thorough in the event you have a ground fault (short) between the current carrying conductors (either the hot or neutral leads) to the chassis of the appliance. Current likes to take the path of least resistance...and that ground wire ensures the path is through the ground wire and NOT the person holding the appliance.

If you tie the two together anywhere other than the main service panel, what you end up doing is making the ground lead a current carrying conductor when the appliance is operating. This means if you get a ground fault (short) in the appliance while it's operating, the chassis of the appliance will now have 120 to 240 Volts present on it...with no alternate path to keep current from passing through the body of the person who may touch it.

If your modern appliance will only work with a 4-wire plug that has the neutral and ground wired together, then that is a powerful indication that you have a problem with the wiring between the wall outlet and the service panel it's wired to. Knowing how it's SUPPOSED to work, the problem (as a couple others above have already said) is very likely that the neutral is not properly connected somewhere.

It is VITAL that you have this looked at, because if you should develop an electrical short to the chassis of your range, you WILL expose anybody who touches the range to 120 to 240 Volts.

It takes as low as 30 Volts flowing through your body across your chest to kill you.
 
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RetiredUSNChief said:
If your modern appliance will only work with a 4-wire plug that has the neutral and ground wired together, then that is a powerful indication that you have a problem with the wiring between the wall outlet and the service panel it's wired to.
Click to expand...

sounds like I'm moving the stove out tomorrow to check things out.

my plan is:

first: check the outlet, I should be able to get 120v, 120v, 240v by going red->white, black->white, red->black.

question: if I go red->ground or black->ground, should I get 120v?

second: open the panel, see if the white and or green(or bare) are actually there.

question: The white should be on the bus bar, but where should the green be if it's done right?

third: post results, see if I have to get an electrician in. :)
 
Red to ground 120. Black to ground 120. Red to white 120. Black to white 120. That’s gonna tell you nothing.

With breaker off. Open the 4 wire receptacle for the stove plug. Are the wires correct with 3 current carrying conductors and a green or bare wire? If yes proceed to appliance.

On appliance screw green or bare wire to metal green screw which bonds all metal parts. Wire white to white. Wire other two wires.

Your image in the post does not work for me.
 
LeeMajors said:
Neutral and ground are essentially tied together in the panel. sounds like the 4 wire plug was wired as a 3 wire plug.
Click to expand...
This ^^^^. If someone had three wire cable and chose to put a 4 wire receptacle in but not pull the correct 4 wires that’s bad practice and would confuse anyone trying to install a stove- like you.
 
Trouble shooting 101

Current and voltage are two different things. Just because your meter will read 120v across red to white and black to white does not mean current will flow there. It takes very little to run a meter.

You need to retest with the range hooked up. Test first with it turned off
If you get your voltage reading turn it on and see if you still have the reading. If not you have enuff of a connection to make the meter work but not enuff for the range. Oh you need to wire it back up the way it is supposed to be first.
 
Kelly, there are only two things that you need to do.

1 - count the number of wires at the receptacle and also at the load center. If 4, move on to step 2. If 3, move on to step 3.

Step 2. If 4 wires present, separate neutral and ground at the receptacle and at the load center. Ohm out the neutral to ensure that you have continuity from end to end.

Step 3. If only 3 wires are present, verify if your stove requires 240 and 120 for the controls. If yes, then either pull a neutral wire to add to the circuit, or replace the existing two wire with ground with a three wire with ground. Wire size depends upon the current required by your stove.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
A further explanation:

A lot of people don't understand why it's unacceptable to tie the neutral to the ground. Sadly, sometimes that extends to the professionals responsible for house wiring. There are even morons within the electrical inspector world who don't understand. It is acceptable for most people who do not understand electrical wiring requirements, because they're not the ones charged with ensuring things are correct. It is NOT acceptable for professionals, or for people who don't understand it and choose to dabble in wiring anyway.

As I stated in my earlier posting, the difference between neutral and ground is that the neutral is a current carrying conductor, whereas the ground is not supposed to be. Neutral is part of a circuit in which current flows.

If you have an electrical load operating, such as a refrigerator, stove, lamp, drill, etc., there is current flow from the hot wire, through the electrical appliance, and into the neutral wire. If you touch ANY part of this electrical circuit while it's operating (the hot wire, the wiring inside the appliance, or the neutral wire) you will receive an electrical shock.

This is because while the appliance is operating (like a light switch in "ON" or the trigger depressed on a drill), this completes the electrical circuit which allows current to flow through the device.

If your appliance (and house wiring) is wired correctly, when the light switch/trigger is "OFF" (open), then touching the hot lead will expose you to electrical shock, but the neutral will not.

The fact that the neutral lead carries current when the appliance is operating is the reason why it's insulated.

The ground lead, however, is NOT designed to be a normal, current carrying conductor. And because of this, it's not insulated. The ground lead is there to provide a safe alternate path for current to flow thorough in the event you have a ground fault (short) between the current carrying conductors (either the hot or neutral leads) to the chassis of the appliance. Current likes to take the path of least resistance...and that ground wire ensures the path is through the ground wire and NOT the person holding the appliance.

If you tie the two together anywhere other than the main service panel, what you end up doing is making the ground lead a current carrying conductor when the appliance is operating. This means if you get a ground fault (short) in the appliance while it's operating, the chassis of the appliance will now have 120 to 240 Volts present on it...with no alternate path to keep current from passing through the body of the person who may touch it.

If your modern appliance will only work with a 4-wire plug that has the neutral and ground wired together, then that is a powerful indication that you have a problem with the wiring between the wall outlet and the service panel it's wired to. Knowing how it's SUPPOSED to work, the problem (as a couple others above have already said) is very likely that the neutral is not properly connected somewhere.

It is VITAL that you have this looked at, because if you should develop an electrical short to the chassis of your range, you WILL expose anybody who touches the range to 120 to 240 Volts.

It takes as low as 30 Volts flowing through your body across your chest to kill you.
Click to expand...
I LIKE YOU, CHIEF! LOL. Chief is spot on. It's called a "hot chassis". Can be dangerous. I remember "old guys" I used to work with (of which, I are now a member...lol), taking about working on TV, radio, amps, etc., using a variac, and having to be careful how it was plugged in (making sure not to swap hot and neutral) and where and what they touched on the chassis.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 
Jayne said:
sounds like I'm moving the stove out tomorrow to check things out.

my plan is:

first: check the outlet, I should be able to get 120v, 120v, 240v by going red->white, black->white, red->black.

question: if I go red->ground or black->ground, should I get 120v?

second: open the panel, see if the white and or green(or bare) are actually there.

question: The white should be on the bus bar, but where should the green be if it's done right?

third: post results, see if I have to get an electrician in. :)
Click to expand...
The green/bare should be landed on a ground bus bar or terminal block.
 
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So, lots of theory has been posted. :eek:
You need to see what in inside of the receptacle box. Three or four wire. That's where the mystery is.

If you have three wires inside the box you will have to use the 3-wire method and tie your appliance ground to neutral. Like I posted earlier, there is usually a strap or wire of some sort to bond the neutral and ground inside of the appliance to do that.
If you have 4 wires then don't do it that way. Use the 4-wire wiring method. Two lines, neutral, and ground each have their separate lug.

CHRIS
 
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@Jayne

Others have addressed your questions. Let me describe how you should troubleshoot this.

First, kill the circuit by opening the breaker before doing anything else. It should be a double pole breaker. You've already established that it's not right. Don't even take any more voltage checks for troubleshooting on the live circuit at this point.

Second, check that receptacle dead before removing the cover. In addition to good electrical practice, an incorrectly wired receptacle could still have power on it from an unknown source.

Third, check the receptacle, wiring, and panel connections for problems.

Things to look for/check:

- Is the proper wiring installed between the receptacle and the panel, or was the old wiring jury rigged to make a 4-wire receptacle work? If not, you've found your problem right there and you need to pull in new 4-wire cable. I am not a fan of doing this any other way: pull in a proper 4-wire cable and be done with it.

- Is the receptacle wired correctly or did someone jury rig that wiring? Fix it if necessary.

- At the panel, check the wiring. The two hot leads (black and red) should go to a double pole, 240 Volt breaker. There will be two terminals on it, with one of the wires connected to one and the other connected to the second. The neutral/common lead (white) should be connected to the neutral/common bus bar. The ground lead (green/bare wire) should go to the ground bus bar. If you have ANY doubts as to the identity of these leads belonging to the cable to your receptacle, then use a multimeter to check the continuity of each lead to verify it. Fix any problems.

WARNING:

While the receptacle is dead for this, the panel is NOT. If you have to actually enter the panel (hands or tools), you should at least open the main breaker. This will remove power to all the load breakers, but you'll still have power entering the panel to main breaker.

CHECK THE PANEL DEAD WITH YOUR METER BEFORE ENTERING THE PANEL.
 
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Johnny said:
The house I grew up in was knob and tube electric and had 1800's news print tacked up as "insulation".
Click to expand...
The one I grew up in was built in the early 1900s, and had the same. My father, just before he passed away in 1980, had all the electrical redone and had the house insulated and remodeled. Most people nowadays have no clue how cold a poorly insulated house with wood heat in 1 room is, in the mountains during the winter.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 
jodyisaacs said:
The one I grew up in was built in the early 1900s, and had the same. My father, just before he passed away in 1980, had all the electrical redone and had the house insulated and remodeled. Most people nowadays have no clue how cold a poorly insulated house with wood heat in 1 room is, in the mountains during the winter.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

99 degrees in the stove room, breaking ice in the toilet to flush, good times.
 
jodyisaacs said:
The one I grew up in was built in the early 1900s, and had the same. My father, just before he passed away in 1980, had all the electrical redone and had the house insulated and remodeled. Most people nowadays have no clue how cold a poorly insulated house with wood heat in 1 room is, in the mountains during the winter.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I found out this on my first travel to a duck hunting cabin/house in north Alabama. Got up every night and chucked wood into the fireplace while on the other side of the house it was 45 degrees in a back room.
 
Hire an electrician. The $100 for them will be far cheaper than a funeral or burning down the house. It appears some have explained how this all works, but it is not wise to be wiring things when you have to ask questions like you are asking. I was an unlimited licensed electrician in 3 states and am still an electronics/I&C technician so while I am stupid I do understand how angry pixies work and move. Please seek professional help and do not come to a gun forum for electrical instructions.
 
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DrDover said:
Hire an electrician. The $100 for them will be far cheaper than a funeral or burning down the house. It appears some have explained how this all works, but it is not wise to be wiring things when you have to ask questions like you are asking. I was an unlimited licensed electrician in 3 states and am still an electronics/I&C technician so while I am stupid I do understand how angry pixies work and move. Please seek professional help and do not come to a gun forum for electrical instructions.
Click to expand...

Jayne is an electronics technician; he has the tools and aptitude to be able to repair it; just lacks some of the essential knowledge in certain areas.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Second, check that receptacle dead before removing the cover. In addition to good electrical practice, an incorrectly wired receptacle could still have power on it from an unknown source.
Click to expand...

I used the un-OSHA approved lockout method on the panel, told the wife "don't touch anything or I might die".

- Is the proper wiring installed between the receptacle and the panel, or was the old wiring jury rigged to make a 4-wire receptacle work?
Click to expand...

Of all the fail cases, this one is probably the 'best'. Nothing has fallen off, broken, come lose at the panel... they just moved the 3 wires to a 4 wire outlet and called it a day. Why use the ground and not the neutral terminal? To ensure anything 'new' plugged in wouldn't work?

IMG_7632.JPG

So the answer seems to be "run a new 4 wire connection to the panel" which is where I'll call in a pro. I could do it, but like with the generator switch panel I really don't want to do it. I'm more of a low voltage sorta guy, when the wires get that big my data center brain says "stay away".
 
DrDover said:
do not come to a gun forum for electrical instructions.
Click to expand...

Actually, the gun forum is a great resource for anything that isn't about guns. Every tactical timmy shows up to throw in their 2 cents about guns, but usually only people with actual knowledge/experience will chime in on off-topic stuff. What are the odds that an airsofter shows up on a gun forum and pretends to be an electrician?
 
CHRIS_WNC said:
there is usually a strap or wire of some sort to bond the neutral and ground inside of the appliance to do that.
Click to expand...

Yes, and that ground strap is still intact.

It's an odd hybrid wiring situation, 4 wire plug, 3 wires connected in a 4 wire receptacle, all half ass. I don't like running one electrical spec over a different physical spec.

The question we'll never know the answer to is... why did they do this??
 
Scsmith42 said:
Jayne is an electronics technician; he has the tools and aptitude to be able to repair it; just lacks some of the essential knowledge in certain areas.
Click to expand...

Technically, my fancy book learnin' degree says "scientist" on it. When trying to explain the various degrees and names to one of the nephews who wants to go to college, I came up with:

engineer: I will use these known principles and techniques to solve problems, build devices and improve the world.
scientist: Wonder what happens if I try this? *boom* whoa, write that down. Now... what happens if instead I try this...?
 
Congratulations!

Yep... there's your problem! And now you can clearly visualize the safety hazard this presents, to. This clearly matches the probable cause we talked about.

Still look in the panel, though, just so you know what's going on with the other end.

You COULD just pull a new ground wire alongside the existing cable as your fourth wire, in addition to connecting your neutral where it's stored top go. I'd have to look up the code for this online to be sure that's considered within the code.

But I'm a big fan of making things the way they should be, so my personal preference, even of just pulling a ground wire is within code, is to replace that cable with a proper 4-wire.

By "replace", if you haven't worked with installed house working, this may actually involve retiring portions of the existing cable in place because it's likely staples to studs within the walls.
 
There you go!

So options-
Swap your box and plug to a three wire variety. ( I would do this)
Pull a new four wire run. (Could be easy or extremely difficult depending on access)
Pull a ground that is bonded to the ground bus in the panel. (Same as four wire above)
Leave it as is...knowing that there is technically an issue. (Lazy day excuse for me until I do #1)

You are not running current from the neutral run back into the house ground, so no issues with that part of it.
CHRIS
 
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