Long Range/PRS training..?

bigfelipe

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What options are out there? I'm a noob when it comes to shooting over a couple hundred yards. Before I spend a ton of time and effort researching, I think a class or session is in order. I do better with hands on instruction vs reading and then trying to apply it to my equipment.
 
What options are out there? I'm a noob when it comes to shooting over a couple hundred yards. Before I spend a ton of time and effort researching, I think a class or session is in order. I do better with hands on instruction vs reading and then trying to apply it to my equipment.

Frontline Defense between Louisburg and Warrenton runs a 2 day Introduction to Long Range course that will take you from zero to 1000 yards. That class has both a classroom and practical range component, utilizing the 1000 yard known distance range to give you experience from 300 to 1000 yards. They also have a 1 day Introduction to Long Range Competition Shooting course that focuses on PRS style matches, and utilizes their 1000 yard unknown distance range and competition areas. In that class, you will experience shooting from many of the common stage props (vehicles, rooftop, tower, culverts, barricades, etc.). If you are unfamiliar with the range, you can check it out here:

https://frontlinedefenseusa.com/

Or, you can stop by any Saturday from 8-5 or Sunday from 12-5 and they'll gladly give you a tour. They even have a 500 yard range that is open to the general public, if you want to stretch your legs a little.
 
Or, you can stop by any Saturday from 8-5 or Sunday from 12-5 and they'll gladly give you a tour. They even have a 500 yard range that is open to the general public, if you want to stretch your legs a little.
That sounds like a great tour! I'd love to check that out, just getting interested in rifles....and distance! lol.
 
I have done the Apex class. It is a real brain dump. First day is all class room and doing range estimations with your scope. Second day you shoot. Anyone who has NOT bought any equipment yet but wants to get into to long range shooting, i recommend the Apex class and using one of their rifles and scope... may end up saving you some money. This way you don't find out you bought the wrong stuff the first time... like me.
 
I have done the Apex class. It is a real brain dump. First day is all class room and doing range estimations with your scope. Second day you shoot. Anyone who has NOT bought any equipment yet but wants to get into to long range shooting, i recommend the Apex class and using one of their rifles and scope... may end up saving you some money. This way you don't find out you bought the wrong stuff the first time... like me.

I bought good quality stuff and didn't get a bunch of gizmos and such. If anyone has issue with my rifle/scope, they aren't someone I want teaching me...
 
I bought good quality stuff and didn't get a bunch of gizmos and such. If anyone has issue with my rifle/scope, they aren't someone I want teaching me...

I am sure no offense was intended by the original gear comment, and gear selection is an important and complex topic in this context because there is SO much PRS gear and hype out there. I have seen folks show up at FLD professing a goal of learning competitive PRS style shooting having just bought the finest, most expensive pencil barreled, high powered hunting rifle and BDC reticle hunting scope that the guy at Cabelas could put together. It was not an issue of the quality of the equipment, but it was a huge question of suitability of the equipment to its new owner's intended purpose. Heck, I myself have a pile of great quality, relevant equipment and gadgets (bags, bipods, cards, etc.) that I bought, but never actually use.
 
A bipod, a squeeze bag and a game changer bag is all the gadgets you have to have. Anything else is just to your liking. Well after a decent rifle scope combo and having seen what you got you are good to go. You got a great starting platform.

You can write dope on your palm in sharpie or use a pipe cleaner and a piece of kydex to make a dope card to hang off your rifle then use masking tape to write on it.

A kestrel is cool and I got a 5700 elite but your phone will give you weather at most places and there are usually 8 other kestrels on the squad if you need data.

A good ballistic ap on your phone is a must. I like applied ballistics but Strelok is also good.

Anytime you want to go shoot we can go to Woody's or Coleman's Creek. Woody's we can get to 540 and Coleman's has several 1200 meter bays as well as a mile.
 
I am sure no offense was intended by the original gear comment, and gear selection is an important and complex topic in this context because there is SO much PRS gear and hype out there. I have seen folks show up at FLD professing a goal of learning competitive PRS style shooting having just bought the finest, most expensive pencil barreled, high powered hunting rifle and BDC reticle hunting scope that the guy at Cabelas could put together. It was not an issue of the quality of the equipment, but it was a huge question of suitability of the equipment to its new owner's intended purpose. Heck, I myself have a pile of great quality, relevant equipment and gadgets (bags, bipods, cards, etc.) that I bought, but never actually use.

No doubt, and no offense was taken. Just something I have noticed from taking other classes. Instructors like to tell you what you need (ie, what they use) and then next time you come out they're using something different and tell you that you're set up wrong after they're the ones that set you up...

I want to learn how to use my equipment to the best of my ability. Just need to learn some basics before I start wasting ammo...
 
No doubt, and no offense was taken. Just something I have noticed from taking other classes. Instructors like to tell you what you need (ie, what they use) and then next time you come out they're using something different and tell you that you're set up wrong after they're the ones that set you up...

I want to learn how to use my equipment to the best of my ability. Just need to learn some basics before I start wasting ammo...

Like I said we can go out for the cost of a day pass and do basics for free then you could take a class with someone like Paul at Frontline or the wind class at bang steel. Or just jump in and come watch the people shooting at matches.

Determine the bullet your gun likes
Zero it
Get good ballistic data on that bullet with your gun
Confirm that data at range
Shoot a match and have some fun
 
I want to take a long distance class, but there's no point until I know I'm good enough and my rifle is good enough. How do I know if I have the mechanical shooting skills to try long range?

With a Kidd 1022/16x scope/bag and bipod I can't get below moa @ 100, with a somewhat built Remington 700 I could get just under MOA pretty consistently with Federal Gold Match. But an error of more than 1 MOA doesn't seem anywhere near good enough to evaluate ammunition load accuracy much less start precision shooting, and it's hard to know whether it's me or the gun. The guns should be better than that.

What Remington? 308" Barrel twist? What ammo? What is the trigger pull? My wife's 308 hated 168gr Federal Match ammo and liked 175gr Federal Match ammo, might have been the other way around cannot remember. One would group .5 MOA the other was 2 MOA or worse. It loved 185gr Berger Juggernauts in the handloads she did. Remington factory guns are hit or miss. Some are sub MOA some are not.

One way to make sure it is not the ammo is to shoot 10 through a chrony and see what the SD (standard deviation) is. If the SD is more than 1 or 2% you will not get a good consistent group. For our 6mm Creeds we are shooting a 105gr bullet at 3050 fps and the the SD is 6 fps. That is 0.2% RSD. If the SD of ammo is good and the crown on the barrel is good and clean and the chamber is in spec then you should be able to get sub moa and if not then it is probably you. To get 0.5 MOA or less then you start looking at blueprinting the action, etc.

Or come out to a range and shoot someone elses gun that is known to get good groups with their ammo and see how you do.
 
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Find a place to shoot. Download one of the free ballistic calculators on your phone. Enter as much information that you have available. Bullet weight, BC, sight-in distance, velocity. Velocity can be a bit tricky so start with whatever is on the box unless you have access to a chrono. Sight in at 100. Then go to 200. You should be a little low (drop). Measure that distance from the point of aim. Then take your app and play with the velocity until it matches your drop. That will get you into the ballpark. Then using your app click up to whatever it says to hit at 300. Chances are good you will be hitting pretty much where you are aiming. Then go out as far as you want and keep clicking up. Then you can play around with the windage if you want. I've had guys show up with a brand new rifle and scope combo and had them hitting steel out to 800 yards within 30 minutes if there wasn't a bunch of crazy wind. All you need is a solid bench (or go prone) and a decent rifle/scope to get started. Once you have your DOPE you can start playing around with shooting naked while swinging from a tree and the rest of the PRS style fun stuff. :D

Hitting a target "out there" is not hard. What's hard is hitting multiple targets under the clock or trying to hit that little bitty spot on the target multiple times under the clock. That takes practice and maybe a bit of luck. :D
 
No doubt, and no offense was taken. Just something I have noticed from taking other classes. Instructors like to tell you what you need (ie, what they use) and then next time you come out they're using something different and tell you that you're set up wrong after they're the ones that set you up...

I want to learn how to use my equipment to the best of my ability. Just need to learn some basics before I start wasting ammo...

So this is why I don't sell anyone on anything. When I shoot Long Range, I bring a range finder (which I can do without but saves time solo), and my data tables, and a sandbag. That is it. I work off of a minimalist approach. What @Variable meant, was I have students bring amazon.com $29 optics what wont hold zero or garbage ammo or rifles they built in their basement that wont shoot. Others use my stuff because I own probably 15 precision guns and optics so they can see and feel what they like and what they don't like. Its nice to look through stuff and compare on a range before you buy.

As for our class, I think you will enjoy it. It is a lot of PowerPoint, but it is a lot of the WHYs behind long distance shooting, not just a glorified spotter. I TEACH how to set up your tables and help you build them and show you how, that way you can do it from now on without me holding your hand. Just a perspective!
 
"PRS" shooting is definitely more than the rifle but you need a solid one to do well. If the rifle, scope and ammo are up to the task then the shooter is the weak link in the equation. A good class will help to a point and show you fundamentals but you need to practice as well. The short list of equipment listed by TSConver is a good one. Basically what I use at every match but one thing to add is a larger bag which can help for rear stability when off your belly.

ETA: forgot to add never go and watch a match. Join up to shoot it. You will learn more that way and have a lot more fun than watching people shoot.
 
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"PRS" shooting is definitely more than the rifle but you need a solid one to do well. If the rifle, scope and ammo are up to the task then the shooter is the weak link in the equation. A good class will help to a point and show you fundamentals but you need to practice as well. The short list of equipment listed by TSConver is a good one. Basically what I use at every match but one thing to add is a larger bag which can help for rear stability when off your belly.

ETA: forgot to add never go and watch a match. Join up to shoot it. You will learn more that way and have a lot more fun than watching people shoot.

Just a backpack stuffed with towels makes a good pillow for support. Great for shooting off a roof or semi prone. Can get fancy pillows. I have two. But again come to a match there is plenty of gear to try before you buy.

Yep and come shoot. Again open offer to get some range time and bring my chrono.
 
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Yeah a pack is good for roof tops or when little movement is needed but when moving around the larger light pillows are easier to maneuver. Good to have one strapped to the pack when needed.

And borrowing and trying gear is another reason to not just go and watch. Go and shoot and try different gear and see what you need.
 
Go and shoot. I was astounded by the folks at frontlines match last weekend. Everyone went out of their way to help me as a new shooter. Set an honest goal and try to achieve it. My goal was one hit per stage and I surpassed that. Everyone has to start somewhere.


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And that was a tough match to get a feel with 8 per squad and not as much interaction. Once this is all over and matches start rolling it will get better. The June 20th match is going to back to larger squads.
 
And that was a tough match to get a feel with 8 per squad and not as much interaction. Once this is all over and matches start rolling it will get better. The June 20th match is going to back to larger squads.

Yeah I will be there. Looking forward to it. I want to shoot the 2 day match in October too. I think registration opens this week for it. I’ll probably hit pig river for a one day match too.


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I am sure no offense was intended by the original gear comment, and gear selection is an important and complex topic in this context because there is SO much PRS gear and hype out there. I have seen folks show up at FLD professing a goal of learning competitive PRS style shooting having just bought the finest, most expensive pencil barreled, high powered hunting rifle and BDC reticle hunting scope that the guy at Cabelas could put together. It was not an issue of the quality of the equipment, but it was a huge question of suitability of the equipment to its new owner's intended purpose. Heck, I myself have a pile of great quality, relevant equipment and gadgets (bags, bipods, cards, etc.) that I bought, but never actually use.

You hit the nail on the head. I showed up with a Savage 30'06 110 tactical rifle and a 4-24 scope both of which i bought 25 years ago. The scope company no longer makes scopes (B&L)... My only reticle is a big cross hair. That rifle is a tack driver and i can shoot it well out to 300 hundred. But at 400+ i was holding pretty high using Kentucky windage cause that is all i had. I also learned perhaps my ammo was sub par. Now, i bought everything a long time ago before i knew anything. But still, if you are thinking of getting into long range precision shooting it would be better to take a class and use their various rifles to see what you like. There are a crap ton of reticles, mil or moa, what does good glass look like? Can you see mirage? Are the fiddly bits easy to fiddle with? What caliber is best for what you are going to do? Lots to learn. PRS is its own world and its expensive. That is why Apex is so nice, you can try many awesome different rifles with various scopes. You have a direct comparison.

V
 
Reading back on this thread and what Bigfelipe said I'm so glad I'm to damn old and lazy to get into PRS shooting. I'm more than happy to sit at a bench, or go prone, and shoot my handloads one at a time and try to hit that gnat in the ass. Besides, how do you guys run around climbing on roofs and such with all that gear and not spill your beer? :D

I met a retired marine sniper and instructor recently who is an avid competitive rifle shooter and I asked him what kind of shooting he enjoys. I was a bit surprised when he said F-Class. :confused: I figured he would be all over PRS style shooting but he said no, he likes shooting prone as that is what he did for so many years in the Corps (such as "over watch" duty or something like that) while deployed to some nasty places. He likes to be still, relaxed, control his breathing and gently touch the trigger and put his round in the "X".

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter what you enjoy. As long as you are burning powder things are good.. :)
 
I'm more than happy to sit at a bench, or go prone, and shoot my handloads one at a time and try to hit that gnat in the ass. Besides, how do you guys run around climbing on roofs and such with all that gear and not spill your beer? :D

I think that we must be related. The problem with prone is that you got to work your way back up.
 
That's why there are all types of games for all types of shooters. It is getting harder getting older and still doing it though but still too much fun to give it up.
 
Reading back on this thread and what Bigfelipe said I'm so glad I'm to damn old and lazy to get into PRS shooting. I'm more than happy to sit at a bench, or go prone, and shoot my handloads one at a time and try to hit that gnat in the ass. Besides, how do you guys run around climbing on roofs and such with all that gear and not spill your beer?

I met a retired marine sniper and instructor recently who is an avid competitive rifle shooter and I asked him what kind of shooting he enjoys. I was a bit surprised when he said F-Class. :confused: I figured he would be all over PRS style shooting but he said no, he likes shooting prone as that is what he did for so many years in the Corps (such as "over watch" duty or something like that) while deployed to some nasty places. He likes to be still, relaxed, control his breathing and gently touch the trigger and put his round in the "X".

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter what you enjoy. As long as you are burning powder things are good.. :)

I enjoy the PRS/Positional style matches. But my favorite thing to do at the range is just to plink with my 22. I like to see how many consecutive rounds I can put through the same hole at 25, or how many small target dots I can hit at 50, or try to ring the 600 or 700 yard plates. Just working on the fundamentals, really.
 
I enjoy the PRS/Positional style matches. But my favorite thing to do at the range is just to plink with my 22. I like to see how many consecutive rounds I can put through the same hole at 25, or how many small target dots I can hit at 50, or try to ring the 600 or 700 yard plates. Just working on the fundamentals, really.


East of here, I enjoy shooting (trying to) a golf ball off the berm at 100 yards with a 22 LR.
 
The guns should be better than that.
@Fred , the old folks on here will tell you that a MOA rifle up through the 70s was a Unicorn in an over the counter purchase. The rifles that can be bought by walking into a store and plunking down your money today are amazing. They are capable of amazing accuracy. Roy Weatherby was the first to market Special across the counter accurate rifles. I saw him tell how he started marketing his "Special" Weatherby Rifles. Every rifle they built was shot for accuracy. ANY that shot MOA were set on another rack and sold as "Specials". My how the rifle industry has changed. Savage set the industry on Fire with the AccuTrigger. Before that There was a "sell em what we got" attitude. The trickle down is now damn near all rifles come with good triggers. Be happy you live in this day of rifle manufacture. The Majors are turning out tack drivers.
 
@Fred , the old folks on here will tell you that a MOA rifle up through the 70s was a Unicorn in an over the counter purchase. The rifles that can be bought by walking into a store and plunking down your money today are amazing. They are capable of amazing accuracy. Roy Weatherby was the first to market Special across the counter accurate rifles. I saw him tell how he started marketing his "Special" Weatherby Rifles. Every rifle they built was shot for accuracy. ANY that shot MOA were set on another rack and sold as "Specials". My how the rifle industry has changed. Savage set the industry on Fire with the AccuTrigger. Before that There was a "sell em what we got" attitude. The trickle down is now damn near all rifles come with good triggers. Be happy you live in this day of rifle manufacture. The Majors are turning out tack drivers.

Sniper rifles that weren't stock didn't start happening until the end of Vietnam. Sure, they had some optics that civilians didn't have, but the rifles themselves were usually COTS or issued.
 
I still have a few Weatherby targets that came in the box with the rifles. Three shot groups under an inch with the bullet weight. Does anyone still do that?
 
Should go shoot the .22 PRS style matches and get the best of both worlds.

I usually shoot the 22 PRS matches at Frontline, though I missed the last one.
 
I usually shoot the 22 PRS matches at Frontline, though I missed the last one.

I wish Paul could do more of them up there. I have went up to VA, W VA, and down to SC to shoot some .22 matches and it's a lot of fun. DPRC Challenge matches are fun and more local although only out to 150 yards.
 
I wish Paul could do more of them up there. I have went up to VA, W VA, and down to SC to shoot some .22 matches and it's a lot of fun. DPRC Challenge matches are fun and more local although only out to 150 yards.

Between holding centerfire matches, avoiding overlapping other local ranges' scheduled "big" matches, teaching classes, completing range projects/maintenance and having to shut down most of the range for a day, I think it gets difficult for him to hold very many of them. It's not like he is making much money off of the rimfire matches. But we like to stay on him about rimfire stuff and bug him until he sets it up. We recently got him to place a 3" hanger at 200 and a 5" hanger at 300 to spice up the rimfire range a little. Now THAT is some good long range practice!
 
Oh I know he is busy but seems like only one a year for the Rimfire fun. Just nice to have one semi local.
 
I'm just getting int0 22 shooting and would love to try some 22PRS style stuff. Anything near Charlotte? I would make a drive if that was the only option however.
 
@Fred , the old folks on here will tell you that a MOA rifle up through the 70s was a Unicorn in an over the counter purchase. The rifles that can be bought by walking into a store and plunking down your money today are amazing. They are capable of amazing accuracy. Roy Weatherby was the first to market Special across the counter accurate rifles. I saw him tell how he started marketing his "Special" Weatherby Rifles. Every rifle they built was shot for accuracy. ANY that shot MOA were set on another rack and sold as "Specials". My how the rifle industry has changed. Savage set the industry on Fire with the AccuTrigger. Before that There was a "sell em what we got" attitude. The trickle down is now damn near all rifles come with good triggers. Be happy you live in this day of rifle manufacture. The Majors are turning out tack drivers.


Follow the evolution of manufacturing...

CNC equipment became avaliable and commonplace in the 1970's... It stands to reason that better, more accurate and consistent parts were built into rifles from the late 70's onward... Developments in tooling and processes throughout the 90s brought us to today.... Where one can buy over the counter, out of the box performance in rifles capable of sub-moa performance all day, every day....

Ammo mfg. has seen the same advances as well..
 
+1 for @Apex Defense Group

I took the class as an absolute noob to long range and the info dump was intense.

The best part about it for me was getting hands on experience looking through MOA and MIL scopes and seeing the math needed for both and the differences between First vs Second focal. There are so many terms being thrown at you being able to look through the scopes and seeing what each one meant helped me to determine that I like MOA First Focal which made it much easier to decide what to buy and Ryan will give you great recommendations based on your price range.
 
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