9mm Sub Gun

I had a APC9. Sold it. Mags proved to be fragile with plastic feed lips. Nice gun for a range toy, but it doesn't really do anything a Stribog can't do for a lot less cash.
This said, the APC9 Pro variant can be had to take Glock mags. This was a development that might have seen me keep mine.

I've shot the Scorpion and the APC9 side by side. Scorpion is a fine toy, and it feels like a toy. The B&T feels more serious, but plastic mags...
I've also shot a Tavor set up for 9mm. That thing was pretty cool, but meh trigger (bullpup) and it takes a little adjustment to get used to the rear being the heavy spot.

Seriously, check this thing out before you decide. The next generation is imminent and will be roller locked like the MP5. https://dkfirearms.com/product/grand-power-stribog-9mm/

I got the scorpion in 2015 and did a form 1 on it, I never thought it was a toy.
I got the Stribog reciprocating version last year, I foresee selling current one and and getting a roller delay in FDE
 
I got the scorpion in 2015 and did a form 1 on it, I never thought it was a toy.
I got the Stribog reciprocating version last year, I foresee selling current one and and getting a roller delay in FDE
Shoot it next to a B&T and you'll see what I mean. I wasn't throwing shade. There's a big difference in feel.
 
Shoot it next to a B&T and you'll see what I mean. I wasn't throwing shade. There's a big difference in feel.
Is it just heavier? or is it that certain undefinable something? You should let me try it out :)
 
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Someone posted in the HKPro forum that a LGS in Wisconsin got 7 SP5's in this morning. $2495. I just got the last one :)

Great choice. IMHO this is what those things should be selling for but the HK market is willing to pay more so almost no one sells them at that price. That sporting goods chain upped the price overnight to $2799 which is MSRP. Are you going to SBR it or are you going to brace it?
 
Great choice. IMHO this is what those things should be selling for but the HK market is willing to pay more so almost no one sells them at that price. That sporting goods chain upped the price overnight to $2799 which is MSRP. Are you going to SBR it or are you going to brace it?

im going to brace it for now but it will likely be SBR’d down the road
 
im going to brace it for now but it will likely be SBR’d down the road

Cool I left mine braced so they can ride in a car or truck under a concealed carry permit in NC. If you SBR them you cannot have them loaded and accessible in a vehicle or carried in a backpack.
 
If you SBR them you cannot have them loaded and accessible in a vehicle or carried in a backpack.
Isn’t that only if concealed (as far as in a vehicle)? And I don’t even think being loaded makes a difference. Open carry would be legal, concealed would not.
 
Isn’t that only if concealed (as far as in a vehicle)? And I don’t even think being loaded makes a difference. Open carry would be legal, concealed would not.

For me the issue is in the cab of a truck. You are correct it does not have to be loaded. It only has to be accessible. A rifle in a carrying case can and has been considered concealed and accessible. In the trunk of your car is not accessible. The back seat of your truck is. Also if you use it in a get home bag as soon as you exit your car you have to open carry it vs in a back pack.
 
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So I've got the following:
Scorpion SBR 8.9" barrel or whatever the original was
MPX with brace
Zenith Z5RS form 1 just came back
AR9 with 4.5", 8.5", and 16" uppers

The Scorpion is my favorite. Suppressed and without. It chews up everything I throw at it, has LRBHO, and is just a fun gun. I love the Zenith and MPX too. AR9 is a lot of fun unsuppressed with the 8.5" upper. All have trilugs for use with my Omega 9K.

I've never shot a B&T and for the price, I don't think I can spend that much on straight blowback. My next purchases will be a CMMG Banshee RDB upper to use with Endomags on my form 1 lowers and the Stribog V3 that will be roller.
 
So I've got the following:
Scorpion SBR 8.9" barrel or whatever the original was
MPX with brace
Zenith Z5RS form 1 just came back
AR9 with 4.5", 8.5", and 16" uppers

The Scorpion is my favorite. Suppressed and without. It chews up everything I throw at it, has LRBHO, and is just a fun gun. I love the Zenith and MPX too. AR9 is a lot of fun unsuppressed with the 8.5" upper. All have trilugs for use with my Omega 9K.

I've never shot a B&T and for the price, I don't think I can spend that much on straight blowback. My next purchases will be a CMMG Banshee RDB upper to use with Endomags on my form 1 lowers and the Stribog V3 that will be roller.

My Scorpion has never hiccuped. I just think it is inelegant. You really can't beat it for the $$. Decked out with upgrades it is still under the cost of a MP5 clone without a brace. Mine has a factory folder with a Tailhook. It is as good as the stock IMHO.
 
A rifle in a carrying case can and has been considered concealed and accessible. In the trunk of your car is not accessible. The back seat of your truck is.

Do you have a link to a court case or the name of the case where this was cited and upheld?
I would love to read that decision
 
Do you have a link to a court case or the name of the case where this was cited and upheld?
I would love to read that decision
There's a full guidance document issued by the NC Attorney General (I think it was when Cooper was in the position) that I posted a while ago that says exactly what @wvsig said. I'll see if I can find it.

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There's a full guidance document issued by the NC Attorney General (I think it was when Cooper was in the position) that I posted a while ago that says exactly what @wvsig said. I'll see if I can find it.
Which was that moron’s interpretation of the laws, not the laws themselves. I believe it even said that on the title page.
 
Which was that moron’s interpretation of the laws, not the laws themselves. I believe it even said that on the title page.
Agree, but the long gun part does seem to be a violation of the law. Not to mention the Attorney General's office could very easily be the one prosecuting you and their interpretation of the law could very easily resonate with a judge or jury of your peers.
 
Document is here: https://ncdoj.gov/ncja/download/102/firearms/17352/north-carolina-firearms-laws.pdf


Title page says:
This publication is only represented to be current as of the revision date on this cover page. Material in this publication may have been altered, added, or deleted since the revision date. Information contained in this publication should not be relied upon as legal advice in a particular scenario. This information is designed as a reference guide only.


Introduction says:
This publication is designed to assemble and present the basic firearms and weapons laws of North Carolina in an effort to educate and emphasize for the public, the responsibilities and duties pertaining to the possession and use of firearms and related weapons in North Carolina. Most of the guidelines regarding the use, possession, and transfer of firearms in this publication are based upon statutory authority, case law, and Attorney General opinions. As there is an ever increasing awareness of firearms and their potential for misuse, all gun owners are urged to carefully evaluate their current methods of using and transporting firearms to ensure compliance with North Carolina law. In those circumstances where a gun owner is unsure of his/her compliance, he/she is urged to contact his/her local District Attorney, the Attorney General’s office, or private counsel for guidance.
 
Do you have a link to a court case or the name of the case where this was cited and upheld?
I would love to read that decision

Document is here: https://ncdoj.gov/ncja/download/102/firearms/17352/north-carolina-firearms-laws.pdf


Title page says:
This publication is only represented to be current as of the revision date on this cover page. Material in this publication may have been altered, added, or deleted since the revision date. Information contained in this publication should not be relied upon as legal advice in a particular scenario. This information is designed as a reference guide only.


Introduction says:
This publication is designed to assemble and present the basic firearms and weapons laws of North Carolina in an effort to educate and emphasize for the public, the responsibilities and duties pertaining to the possession and use of firearms and related weapons in North Carolina. Most of the guidelines regarding the use, possession, and transfer of firearms in this publication are based upon statutory authority, case law, and Attorney General opinions. As there is an ever increasing awareness of firearms and their potential for misuse, all gun owners are urged to carefully evaluate their current methods of using and transporting firearms to ensure compliance with North Carolina law. In those circumstances where a gun owner is unsure of his/her compliance, he/she is urged to contact his/her local District Attorney, the Attorney General’s office, or private counsel for guidance.

I am not a lawyer but what is in document that you have linked to which was written by Gov Cooper who was the State Attorney General at the time is consistent with what I have been told. Please take all of my advice with a grain of salt. I am friends with my local DA and the Chief of the City Police department. The County Sheriff knows me. My family has a good working relationship with LEO, the District Attorney and local Judges. I have asked a lot of them firearms related legal questions.

The concept in question is addressed in the above document which states:

While a weapon carried openly in an automobile would not be concealed, there are other problems specific to this method of carrying a weapon. The principal drawback, of course, is in the event of an individual being stopped by a law enforcement official, the officer may not readily know that individual’s purpose and intent for carrying a weapon. As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer’s and the vehicle’s occupants’ safety. Another obvious drawback is that a valuable weapon may be in plain view for potential thieves to see. The prohibition to carrying concealed weapons applies not only to handguns and other weapons commonly thought of as being easily hidden, but also to “long guns” as well. Therefore, shotguns and rifles concealed behind the seat of pickup trucks, and elsewhere in other vehicles, could similarly violate North Carolina law.

As to those vehicles with no easily discernible trunk area (e.g., SUVs, vans, etc.), it becomes a factual determination of when the weapon is within ready and easy access to an occupant of the vehicle. If the weapon is concealed near, in close proximity to, or within the convenient control and access of an occupant, which would allow him/her to use the weapon quickly, then a fair probability exists that the occupant is in violation of the law. Therefore, care must be exercised by any occupant of any vehicle to ensure that weapons are securely locked away in as remote an area as possible, in relation to the passenger compartment of the vehicle. It is important to emphasize that these prohibitions apply to passengers, as well as drivers of any vehicle.


I have personally asked my local DA questions about firearms related topics. He is a pro 2nd amendment guy and shoots on a pretty regular basis. I asked him about this particular question once. This not a direct quote but a paraphrase of what he said.

Basically he told me that for the most part if you have a permit and are otherwise acting in a lawful manner the chances of you getting charged with having a concealed long gun because it is in case on the flood boards of the back seat of your truck or SUV is pretty unlikely during a traffic stop. He then went on to say that transporting a long gun in that manner will put you at the mercy of the interpenetration of the officer you come into contact with. If they want to make an issue out of it they can. It might not go anywhere once it hits his office and the courts but that there is a lot of leeway in the law for the officer and then the courts to "determine" if the gun was accessible. Basically if charged with this offense your lawyer will have to argue against the "accessibility" of the gun. He basically told me that I shouldn't worry about it within the local area but if I wanted to be on the safe side you can put a simple lock on the case and that would mitigate the accessibility of the gun. From that discussion my personal takeaway was that if I was driving out of my county I would secure any long guns in the cab of a truck with a lock. Driving through less Pro 2nd Amend areas without the lock is not worth the risk of having a speeding ticket become something worse.

This interpretation of the law was further reinforced at a dinner party where a Judge and a State Rep who is a lawyer were casually talking shop. The lawyer said that he always found the Judge to be fair in her ruling with one exception. That one exception was a case where a woman was charged with concealing a long gun on the back seat of a truck. It was in a rifle case. It was not loaded. The Lawyer believed it was not accessible and argued that in court. The Judge however determine it was and the charge stuck. This further affirmed the arbitrary nature of the law. Your factual determination that the long gun is not accessible may not match LEOs or the court systems. In this case the woman's lawyer could not convince the Judge that the gun was not accessible.

As a result I proceed with caution and if I am pulled over I tell the officer I am armed and if there are other guns in the car which may not be in plain sight. YMMV
 
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I am not a lawyer but what is in document that you have linked to which was written by Gov Cooper who was the State Attorney General at the time is consistent with what I have been told. Please take all of my advice with a grain of salt. I am friends with my local DA and the Chief of the City Police department. The County Sheriff knows me. My family has a good working relationship with LEO, the District Attorney and local Judges. I have asked a lot of them firearms related legal questions.

The concept in question is addressed in the above document which states:

While a weapon carried openly in an automobile would not be concealed, there are other problems specific to this method of carrying a weapon. The principal drawback, of course, is in the event of an individual being stopped by a law enforcement official, the officer may not readily know that individual’s purpose and intent for carrying a weapon. As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer’s and the vehicle’s occupants’ safety. Another obvious drawback is that a valuable weapon may be in plain view for potential thieves to see. The prohibition to carrying concealed weapons applies not only to handguns and other weapons commonly thought of as being easily hidden, but also to “long guns” as well. Therefore, shotguns and rifles concealed behind the seat of pickup trucks, and elsewhere in other vehicles, could similarly violate North Carolina law.

As to those vehicles with no easily discernible trunk area (e.g., SUVs, vans, etc.), it becomes a factual determination of when the weapon is within ready and easy access to an occupant of the vehicle. If the weapon is concealed near, in close proximity to, or within the convenient control and access of an occupant, which would allow him/her to use the weapon quickly, then a fair probability exists that the occupant is in violation of the law. Therefore, care must be exercised by any occupant of any vehicle to ensure that weapons are securely locked away in as remote an area as possible, in relation to the passenger compartment of the vehicle. It is important to emphasize that these prohibitions apply to passengers, as well as drivers of any vehicle.


I have personally asked my local DA questions about firearms related topics. He is a pro 2nd amendment guy and shoots on a pretty regular basis. I asked him about this particular question once. This not a direct quote but a paraphrase of what he said.

Basically he told me that for the most part if you have a permit and are otherwise acting in a lawful manner the chances of you getting charged with having a concealed long gun because it is in case on the flood boards of the back seat of your truck or SUV is pretty unlikely during a traffic stop. He then went on to say that transporting a long gun in that manner will put you at the mercy of the interpenetration of the officer you come into contact with. If they want to make an issue out of it they can. It might not go anywhere once it hits his office and the courts but that there is a lot of leeway in the law for the officer and then the courts to "determine" if the gun was accessible. Basically if charged with this offense your lawyer will have to argue against the "accessibility" of the gun. He basically told me that I shouldn't worry about it within the local area but if I wanted to be on the safe side you can put a simple lock on the case and that would mitigate the accessibility of the gun. From that discussion my personal takeaway was that if I was driving out of my county I would secure any long guns in the cab of a truck with a lock. Driving through less Pro 2nd Amend areas without the lock is not worth the risk of having a speeding ticket become something worse.

This interpretation of the law was further reinforced at a dinner party where a Judge and a State Rep who is a lawyer were casually talking shop. The lawyer said that he always found the Judge to be fair in her ruling with one exception. That one exception was a case where a woman was charged with concealing a long gun on the back seat of a truck. It was in a rifle case. It was not loaded. The Lawyer believed it was not accessible and argued that in court. The Judge however determine it was and the charge stuck. This further affirmed the arbitrary nature of the law. Your factual determination that the long gun is not accessible may not match LEOs or the court systems. In this case the woman's lawyer could not convince the Judge that the gun was not accessible.

As a result I proceed with caution and if I am pulled over I tell the officer I am armed and if there are other guns in the car which may not be in plain sight. YMMV
My thought is, as easy as it is to carry any PCC/subgun legally with a brace as a pistol, why would you open yourself to any risk by carrying a form 1 gun or long gun as your first weapon?
 
My thought is, as easy as it is to carry any PCC/subgun legally with a brace as a pistol, why would you open yourself to any risk by carrying a form 1 gun or long gun as your first weapon?

I agree 100%. If it is ever going to be used as a defense weapon outside the home in NC there is no advantage to a SBR. IMHO there are disadvantages.

The only issue I see with the PCC/Subgun is maybe having to explain that it is a pistol. o_O
 
I agree 100%. If it is ever going to be used as a defense weapon outside the home in NC there is no advantage to a SBR. IMHO there are disadvantages.

The only issue I see with the PCC/Subgun is maybe having to explain that it is a pistol. o_O
Our friends at the ATF have already explained this for us!
 
The only issue I see with the PCC/Subgun is maybe having to explain that it is a pistol. o_O
That’s why mine is built using this lower. :D

7A722606-15B1-4625-9C0E-63F49EF98B1B.jpeg

I also have a Mega lower marked Pistol. Holds no legal weight, but most LEO have no idea anyway.
 
I recently got stopped for a registration violation by a plate reader. The officer asked about my gun as he came to the passenger window very slowly. Once we began conversing, he informed me that my CCW permit was expired and I should get it renewed so I didnt get "jammed up". They knew my situation in advance.
R
 
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