Pistol purchase issue

Smitty

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I hope this is not a duplicate post, but I haven't heard anyone else with this problem.

NC resident. I got my purchase permit 7/23/2020. I (thought) I did due diligence regarding purchasing a firearm in one state from an FFL to ship to a local FFL and fill out the 4473 for the background check when I pick it up. Using the logic of purchasing online to ship to an FFL, show my permit, do the 4473, it should have been a simple transaction.

Fast forward to 8/22/2020. I went to Austin to meet up with a friend for target practice and decide what I wanted to purchase. He researched on his end. The research pointed us in the direction that you can purchase in TX and have it shipped. We went to a particular sporting goods store (not sure if I can say the name). We found what I wanted, gave the guy my ID (NC DL) since it was going to be shipped. Manager comes over and says he can't do the transaction because I don't have a TX ID. The conversation moves toward purchasing and shipping is ok online; what is the problem? One FFL to another FFL and do the background check. Well, the friend explained to me that he would have to be on the other end of the transaction. That he cannot purchase on my behalf and ship. Ok. I get that. Remember, we're speaking about transaction legalities. We weren't hiding anything. So I become aware of "The Strawman Law" which clearly is not legal. End of that line of discussion. My friend presses the issue about what is the difference between purchasing online and picking up on the other end. Store manager got "porky" about it and states "store policy". Friend doesn't let it drop and calls his friend who is an FFL, but didn't have the firearm. Mind you, no money changes hands and I didn't complete a 4473. We eventually leave because I don't want any problems.

Later that night, (Saturday) I find what I'm looking for online to ship to a dealer in Greensboro and purchase it. I drive the three and a half hours to pick it up. This was the following Wednesday. I arrive at (store) and present appropriate documents and complete the 4473. The manager comes over and asks me if I'd been in Austin (last weekend). I said yes and he asked if I was with someone. Again, yes. He tells me there are two "codes" in the computer from the previous attempt to purchase. I'm genuinely puzzled because he doesn't elaborate, but tells me I can't purchase and I'm banned from purchasing. Had I waited 30 days, it may not have been a problem.

I'm completely dumbfounded; then recall the discussion about the Strawman Law. He tells me he has to send an email. To whom? I didn't ask because I was still so speechless and couldn't wrap my head around him telling me I'll probably be permanently banned from purchasing a fire arm. I asked if I needed a lawyer. He said it wouldn't do any good. I didn't think to ask if he meant banned by (store) or by ATF, nor did I think to ask if he ran the 4473. He asked if I'd completed one in Austin. I told him no, because I didn't. I left the store and drove the 3.5 hours back.

I just was so baffled because I thought I'd done everything by the book, so I didn't understand. The guy kept telling me he had to send an email and that he had to let other shops in the area know I'd tried to purchase a firearm twice in the last week in two different states. I'm waiting the 30 days, but I'm not sure where to go from there.

I called back the next day for clarity - but still didn't ask the right questions; ie: was this reported to ATF or simply store policy and did he actually run the 4473? He did give me back my purchase permit, but that didn't indicate to me one way or the other what the outcome will be. Does (store) have the authority to report to ATF about what happened and recommend a denial?

Any advice would be appreciated.

[I don't know if this matters, but I called the FFL dealer where I took my class and asked him for the FFL # so I could ship to him]. He told me to ask store to send him an email - this was while I was in TX. Of course the transaction was not completed, so no email was sent and I haven't talked to the guy I took the CCP class with.]
 
What a mess. We have several FFL’s here so maybe they’ll chime in with their insight.
 
That entire scenario sounds fishy. Did the place in Austin get any of your other info or just the NCDL number. Did the place in Austin enter your NCDL in any database or did they just look at it and say no.
 
@Smitty
Go ahead and name names. Who were the retailers in TX and NC?
 
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Sounds to me like you were by the letter of the law trying complete a text book straw purchase. The ATF follows the money.

Fast forward to 8/22/2020. I went to Austin to meet up with a friend for target practice and decide what I wanted to purchase. He researched on his end. The research pointed us in the direction that you can purchase in TX and have it shipped. We went to a particular sporting goods store (not sure if I can say the name). We found what I wanted, gave the guy my ID (NC DL) since it was going to be shipped. Manager comes over and says he can't do the transaction because I don't have a TX ID. The conversation moves toward purchasing and shipping is ok online; what is the problem? One FFL to another FFL and do the background check. Well, the friend explained to me that he would have to be on the other end of the transaction. That he cannot purchase on my behalf and ship. Ok. I get that. Remember, we're speaking about transaction legalities. We weren't hiding anything. So I become aware of "The Strawman Law" which clearly is not legal. End of that line of discussion. My friend presses the issue about what is the difference between purchasing online and picking up on the other end. Store manager got "porky" about it and states "store policy". Friend doesn't let it drop and calls his friend who is an FFL, but didn't have the firearm. Mind you, no money changes hands and I didn't complete a 4473. We eventually leave because I don't want any problems.

It sounds to me like your friend is the one paying for the gun. Since he is paying for the gun he has to fill out the 4473. He has to also be the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm. In this case he is not you are. It then sounds like the TX FFL might have flagged you in the system. I am not an FFL so I do not know if this is even possible. The local NC FFL is most likely going to notify the local sheriff and the ATF. There are notification requirements to the local Sheriff for things like buying more than 3 handguns from the same dealer in 7 or 10 days. I can't remember the exact number of guns or days.

Bottoms line you did not understand the law. Attempted to break it and now unfortunately with suffer the consequences. It most likely will get sorted out but I would bet your approval process will be a hassle from now on.
 
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You are in a deep dark Government Hole. The ATF.
I am in a deep dark Government Hole. USPS
I'm not sure how to interpret that. Are you saying that he reported it to ATF?
I, too am in a deep, dark government hole. I work for a large, unpopular federal agency (unrelated to ATF)
 
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Sounds to me like you were by the letter of the law trying complete a text book straw purchase. The ATF follows the money.



It sounds to me like your friend is the one paying for the gun. Since he is paying for the gun he has to fill out the 4473. He has to also be the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm. In this case he is not you are. It then sounds like the TX FFL might have flagged you in the system. I am not an FFL so I do not know if this is even possible. The local NC FFL is most likely going to notify the local sheriff and the ATF. There are notification requirements to the local Sheriff for things like buying more than 3 handguns from the same dealer in 7 or 10 days. I can't remember the exact number of guns or days.

Bottoms line you did not understand the law. Attempted to break it and now unfortunately with suffer the consequences. It most likely will get sorted out but I would bet your approval process will be a hassle from now on.
I was the one paying for the gun, but then he talked about purchasing it and that's where we ran afoul. I didn't know and he should have known better. He did most of the talking. We both were under the impression one FFL to another FFL regardless of the state was basically the same as an online purchase with me picking it up. His FFL said it could be done. So the store manager likely reported it to ATF and there's no way I'd know unless someone does a 4473 on me. Should I even bother to call the store customer service at Academy to see what they did or didn't do?
 
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That entire scenario sounds fishy. Did the place in Austin get any of your other info or just the NCDL number. Did the place in Austin enter your NCDL in any database or did they just look at it and say no.
I don't know what they did. All they have is my NCDL#. I didn't do a 4473 and no money changed hands.
 
I was the one paying for the gun, but then he talked about purchasing it and that's where we ran afoul. I didn't know and he should have known better. He did most of the talking. We both were under the impression one FFL to another FFL regardless of the state was basically the same as an online purchase with me picking it up. His FFL said it could be done. So the store manager likely reported it to ATF and there's no way I'd know unless someone does a 4473 on me. Should I even bother to call the store customer service at Academy to see what they did or didn't do?

That is your other mistake. When one person does all the talking and another person steps up and make the purchase it raises red flags with FFLs. I wouldn't call anyone. I would wait the 30 days and try again.
 
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you purchasing a handgun in one state and taking posession from an FFL in another should be perfectly legal. I have no idea why anyone would think your friend has to be part of that transaction. It sounds like the store manager suggested you do a straw deal then flagged you for trying.


ETA: the FFL system exists specifically to support interstate commerce in firearms.
 
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I hope this is not a duplicate post, but I haven't heard anyone else with this problem.

NC resident. I got my purchase permit 7/23/2020. I (thought) I did due diligence regarding purchasing a firearm in one state from an FFL to ship to a local FFL and fill out the 4473 for the background check when I pick it up. Using the logic of purchasing online to ship to an FFL, show my permit, do the 4473, it should have been a simple transaction.

So far so good. You can purchase wherever, but you can’t take possession, they ship to your local FFL and you take possession from them.

Fast forward to 8/22/2020. I went to Austin to meet up with a friend for target practice and decide what I wanted to purchase. He researched on his end. The research pointed us in the direction that you can purchase in TX and have it shipped. We went to a particular sporting goods store (not sure if I can say the name). We found what I wanted, gave the guy my ID (NC DL) since it was going to be shipped. Manager comes over and says he can't do the transaction because I don't have a TX ID. The conversation moves toward purchasing and shipping is ok online; what is the problem? One FFL to another FFL and do the background check. Well, the friend explained to me that he would have to be on the other end of the transaction. That he cannot purchase on my behalf and ship. Ok. I get that. Remember, we're speaking about transaction legalities. We weren't hiding anything. So I become aware of "The Strawman Law" which clearly is not legal. End of that line of discussion. My friend presses the issue about what is the difference between purchasing online and picking up on the other end. Store manager got "porky" about it and states "store policy". Friend doesn't let it drop and calls his friend who is an FFL, but didn't have the firearm. Mind you, no money changes hands and I didn't complete a 4473. We eventually leave because I don't want any problems.
So you tried and failed to make a purchase. Store manager probably didn’t know what he was doing, but it doesn’t matter. Nobody paid any money, nobody got any guns, nothing happened.

Later that night, (Saturday) I find what I'm looking for online to ship to a dealer in Greensboro and purchase it. I drive the three and a half hours to pick it up. This was the following Wednesday. I arrive at (store) and present appropriate documents and complete the 4473. The manager comes over and asks me if I'd been in Austin (last weekend). I said yes and he asked if I was with someone. Again, yes. He tells me there are two "codes" in the computer from the previous attempt to purchase. I'm genuinely puzzled because he doesn't elaborate, but tells me I can't purchase and I'm banned from purchasing. Had I waited 30 days, it may not have been a problem.

I'm completely dumbfounded; then recall the discussion about the Strawman Law. He tells me he has to send an email. To whom? I didn't ask because I was still so speechless and couldn't wrap my head around him telling me I'll probably be permanently banned from purchasing a fire arm. I asked if I needed a lawyer. He said it wouldn't do any good. I didn't think to ask if he meant banned by (store) or by ATF, nor did I think to ask if he ran the 4473. He asked if I'd completed one in Austin. I told him no, because I didn't. I left the store and drove the 3.5 hours back.

I just was so baffled because I thought I'd done everything by the book, so I didn't understand. The guy kept telling me he had to send an email and that he had to let other shops in the area know I'd tried to purchase a firearm twice in the last week in two different states. I'm waiting the 30 days, but I'm not sure where to go from there.

I called back the next day for clarity - but still didn't ask the right questions; ie: was this reported to ATF or simply store policy and did he actually run the 4473? He did give me back my purchase permit, but that didn't indicate to me one way or the other what the outcome will be. Does (store) have the authority to report to ATF about what happened and recommend a denial?

Any advice would be appreciated.

[I don't know if this matters, but I called the FFL dealer where I took my class and asked him for the FFL # so I could ship to him]. He told me to ask store to send him an email - this was while I was in TX. Of course the transaction was not completed, so no email was sent and I haven't talked to the guy I took the CCP class with.]

Wow, so first you need to find a local FFL. There is one that’s not 30 min from your house.

when you bought online was it from the same place in Austin just online? Did you pay using your info? Is the FFL in Greensboro the same place as the place in Austin? No reason not to tell us names of the stores.

I’m no lawyer, but it doesn’t seem like you broke any laws or violated any rules.
 
Academy Sports.
My first experience purchasing handguns from them was a total cluster. It took just about 2 hours and soured me. I complained to corporate, was contacted by the store manager who walked me thru my next purchase and apologized profusely.
 
you purchasing a handgun in one state and taking possession from an FFL in another should be perfectly legal. I have no idea why anyone would think your friend has to be part of that transaction. It sounds like the store manager suggested you do a straw deal then flagged you for trying.
He was definitely a jerk after my friend pushed the issue. The store manager definitely put it in the system. I feel that my friend antagonized him and I'm paying the price.
That is your other mistake. When one person does all the talking and another person steps up and make the purchase it raises red flags with FFLs. I wouldn't call anyone. I would wait the 30 days and try again.

Obviously, I'll try in NC. I do have a friend who is an FFL from where I use to live and he offered to do the 4473 for me, but I feel that would just compound the problem and I should just call it a day and relegate myself to the fact I'm probably not meant to own a firearm. They were such jerks up there even when I followed the letter of the law. It was supposed to be easier here (following the letter of the law). My interview for CCP is in December. Should I even bother going?
 
So far so good. You can purchase wherever, but you can’t take possession, they ship to your local FFL and you take possession from them.


So you tried and failed to make a purchase. Store manager probably didn’t know what he was doing, but it doesn’t matter. Nobody paid any money, nobody got any guns, nothing happened.



Wow, so first you need to find a local FFL. There is one that’s not 30 min from your house.

when you bought online was it from the same place in Austin just online? Did you pay using your info? Is the FFL in Greensboro the same place as the place in Austin? No reason not to tell us names of the stores.

I’m no lawyer, but it doesn’t seem like you broke any laws or violated any rules.
It was Academy Sports. You can shop online or in one of their stores. I was going to purchase there and have it shipped here. They wouldn't allow the purchase, so I went to Academy online and found what I was looking for. The closest location was Greensboro and they wouldn't ship to Wilmington. I paid using my info, but they didn't run the card. The policy is just to hold the money and then wait until I pick it up when they do the 4473 and then charge the card. What a mess.
 
What is that in NC? Do some counties require that?
Yes; it is required in New Hanover County. New Hanover County first requires you to apply for a permit to purchase. If you want to pursue Concealed Carry, you go through an interview with the sheriff, fingerprints and the background check.
 
Most of the big box stores will not allow you to purchase in one state and ship to another state. Bass Pro is the same. You can purchase it online and then pick it up in your state but not state to state. They are flakey. I would guess the only 30 day issue is in the academy system. There is no state or national database for FFLs to see if people are trying to commit straw purchases. You will be fine going to another FFL for a purchase or pickup. In fact with a PPP or a CHP i never enter anything into any system. Just fill out 4473, sign and go.
 
I just talked to my friend in TX. He states there are definitely legal recourses, but to pay someone a bunch of money to fight this is very disheartening. I know it can be appealed on the ATF website, but like someone mentioned earlier, it's a deep, dark hole. IIRC, I also must purchase said firearm within a prescribed amount of time in NC.

There are FFL's here. Availability of firearms/ammo to purchase is practically non-existent. I wish I knew all this before. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. I went to TX knowing I'd find something. Thanks for all of your input. I'm open to all feedback.

I'm sorry I have to respond to each comment individually; I know there's a way to do multiple replies in one post.
 
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I just talked to my friend in TX. He states there are definitely legal recourses, but to pay someone a bunch of money to fight this is very disheartening. I know it can be appealed on the ATF website, but like someone mentioned earlier, it's a deep, dark hole. IIRC, I also must purchase said firearm within a prescribed amount of time in NC.

Did you fill out a 4473? If not the ATF has no idea. I am a FFL. I have turned people away for straw purchases. It does not get recorded anywhere. If academy has a ban for 30 days it is strictly in their system and no one else has any idea about it. Take a deep breath and relax. All is fine. If you have a permit have it shipped to me I will do the transfer. LOL
 
Just out of curiosity, what gun are we discussing here? Is it difficult to find one in N.C.?
 
Did you fill out a 4473? If not the ATF has no idea. I am a FFL. I have turned people away for straw purchases. It does not get recorded anywhere. If academy has a ban for 30 days it is strictly in their system and no one else has any idea about it. Take a deep breath and relax. All is fine. If you have a permit have it shipped to me I will do the transfer. LOL
I did the 4473 at the Greensboro store. The way the manager at Greensboro presented it was that potential 30 day ban or permanent or whether it was simply the store ban or ATF ban. He indicated permanent ban, but again, I didn't ask the right questions. I don't know if he ran the 4473 in Greensboro. I'm not going to attempt a purchase until October to avoid the hassle of the 30 day wait period. I'm at work, so I'm in between doing this and other stuff. DM is ok if this thread gets too long and convoluted.
 
I did the 4473 at the Greensboro store. The way the manager at Greensboro presented it was that potential 30 day ban or permanent or whether it was simply the store ban or ATF ban. He indicated permanent ban, but again, I didn't ask the right questions. I don't know if he ran the 4473 in Greensboro. I'm not going to attempt a purchase until October to avoid the hassle of the 30 day wait period. I'm at work, so I'm in between doing this and other stuff. DM is ok if this thread gets too long and convoluted.

So you filled out a 4473 and handed them your permit and license? What did they do next? Did they run a NICS check? Did it come back denied? IF so they have to give you the NICS check number (NTN) and a information sheet on how to call and check on why.

Again my guess is they have it in their internal system that you tried to do a straw purchase in Texas and now they are denying the transfer which they can legally do. But unless they gave you a NICS transaction number (NTN) and told you that the FBI denied it you are not in any government system.
 
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Just out of curiosity, what gun are we discussing here? Is it difficult to find one in N.C.?

Yup I am with Jeppo here. What were you trying to purchase?
 
DM is ok if this thread gets too long and convoluted.


I can't speak for others, but I find this stuff kind of interesting (as long as you don't mind your business being out there).
 
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So you filled out a 4473 and handed them your permit and license? What did they do next? Did they run a NICS check? Did it come back denied? IF so they have to give you the NICS check number and a information sheet on how to call and check on why.

Again my guess is they have it in their internal system that you tried to do a straw purchase in Texas and now they are denying the transfer which they can legally do. But unless they gave you a NICS transaction number and told you that the FBI denied it you are not in any government system.

Sounds like ATF is not involved but he has been flagged in the Academy Sports system. With the additional info if I was the OP I would locate the gun at a different local retailer and buy it there or order online and have it sent to a FFL that knows what they are doing. Big Box stores are the worst FFLs in the world in my experience unless you are buying the gun in the case. They are the least knowledge FFLs and often confuse their stores rules with ATF and state laws.
 
I can't speak for others, but I find this stuff kind of interesting (as long as you don't mind your business being out there).
Me too. Convoluted is my middle name. :D
 
Sounds like ATF is not involved but he has been flagged in the Academy Sports system. With the additional info if I was the OP I would locate the gun at a different local retailer and buy it there or order online and have it sent to a FFL that knows what they are doing. Big Box stores are the worst FFLs in the world in my experience unless you are buying the gun in the case. They are the least knowledge FFLs and often confuse their stores rules with ATF and state laws.

Agree here with that. And often they insist on doing NICS check on handguns even though it is not needed in NC.
 
I am pretty you sure were “banned” from Academy purchases only. You only “violated” their rules. If you didn’t fill out a 4473 in TX that store didn’t call in for a NICS check thru the FBI so only Academy has any clue of that TX fuster cluck ... likely some revenge entry from the TX manager. If you went to another FFL be it Bass Pro or a Mom & Pop LGS today they’d have no idea as to the Academy crap. For once the government didn’t have anything to do with this.
 
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Oh and they damn well have better given you your permit back if it was PPP.
He did mention that earlier (in the first post) if you’re asking a question and not just making a statement.

I called back the next day for clarity - but still didn't ask the right questions; ie: was this reported to ATF or simply store policy and did he actually run the 4473? He did give me back my purchase permit, but that didn't indicate to me one way or the other what the outcome will be. Does (store) have the authority to report to ATF about what happened and recommend a denial?
 
So you filled out a 4473 and handed them your permit and license? What did they do next? Did they run a NICS check? Did it come back denied? IF so they have to give you the NICS check number (NTN) and a information sheet on how to call and check on why.

Again my guess is they have it in their internal system that you tried to do a straw purchase in Texas and now they are denying the transfer which they can legally do. But unless they gave you a NICS transaction number (NTN) and told you that the FBI denied it you are not in any government system.

I did not get a NICS #. The only info he gave me was to call customer care in 30 days. He did not explain the "codes" to me. Sounds like something internal based upon my interpretation of your statement. And absolutely I will NEVER do business with a "big box" store.

I was trying to purchase a S & W M&P .380 (easy rack - I have major shoulder issues and have a hard time racking a regular pistol). I wanted the 9mm version of it, but couldn't find it. I was also looking at a Bersa Thunder .380. Couldn't find that one, either.
On both ends?
Yes.
Seems more like “in both ends”. :D
Yes LOL.
Agree here with that. And often they insist on doing NICS check on handguns even though it is not needed in NC.
Well, I can def pass a NICS background check considering that I'm a federal employee. LOL.
 
I did not get a NICS #. The only info he gave me was to call customer care in 30 days. He did not explain the "codes" to me. Sounds like something internal based upon my interpretation of your statement. And absolutely I will NEVER do business with a "big box" store.

I was trying to purchase a S & W M&P .380 (easy rack - I have major shoulder issues and have a hard time racking a regular pistol). I wanted the 9mm version of it, but couldn't find it. I was also looking at a Bersa Thunder .380. Couldn't find that one, either.

Yes.

Yes LOL.

Well, I can def pass a NICS background check considering that I'm a federal employee. LOL.
To call their cs. That's their bs rules of Being banned. Their store their bs. Screw the . Buy local. Try BUDS order online.


This one

https://www.budsgunshop.com/mobile/product/101524/smith+&+wesson+m&p380+shield+ez+380acp+36"+8+1+manual+safety+11663
 
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