Help me decide on a PCC

GregB

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Looking to buy a PCC to shoot at local 3 gun and IDPA matches. Must have a 16" barrel per IDPA rules. One of the three gun matches has @3" steel at @ 75 yards.

That being said I've considered the Sub 2000 and the Ruger PCC on the low end ($400-$600), or even a mag block conversion, but I worry about reliability. Have heard the the Ruger isn't accurate enough. Don't know about the keltec. The mid range option is an AR 9, possibly a PSA. On the high end I've considered the Scorpion ( trigger would have to be replaced), one of the 16" AK 9's, or a Kriss'. Like the Sriborg but would have to SBR it or not shoot it in IDPA. Not sure if the three gun venues would let me shoulder it or not. I'm pretty frugal by nature, so it's hard for me to splurge on the high end if something 1/2 to 1/3 the price will do.

Thoughts?

Thanks.
 
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Just my pinion' but you asking for consistent 3" groups @ 75 yards is asking a lot of a PCC. A good trigger will be important with that.........

The Ruger is nice if you like a traditional stock and the trigger isn't bad out of the box, but can be upgraded. I have never seen one shot past 50 yards, but at 50 yards, 3 inch groups were realistic most of the time from what I remember.
I don't believe an AR would be much better........

I don't know the rules of IDPA, but from my experience...... handgun cartridges with higher velocities tend to do better as far as consistent groups. If you could use a 5.7x28 cartridge, that might be something to consider. CMMG offers PCC's in several different handgun cartridges. The Guard/Banshee series has a delayed blowback system which would help with felt recoil and faster follow up shots. If you used a cartridge such as 9mm and you can reload......... use a powder that fills up more of the case, you might have more velocity and better groups.
 
Have you looked at the Beretta CX-4? I have one, and it's my favorite of all my PCCs. Reliable, fairly short compared to others, as the action is set slightly to the rear, plenty of real estate for mounting optics and sights, and it's well balanced.

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Another thing that came to mind......most triggers in this type of firearm are pretty bad. The Ruger is fairly good and can be better. AR's have a great aftermarket for triggers. The CZ trigger is awful from the factory, but can be made better. It will not be as food as tbe Ruger or AR though. The reviews I have seen on the Stribog trigger are bad.

Next time i go out.......i will what the rooga will do at 100. Im curious now......
 
I'm also a fan of the Beretta CX-4 but I don't think there are a lot of them being used in these competitions. You might do well to look at what people are actually using for these matches and ask why.
 
Get an AR that will take Glock mags. Will be easy ergo change from a .233 and as mentioned triggers. I got a PSA upper and lower a couple years ago and it runs great.
 
I have no personal experience with CMMG's delayed blowback system but I hear they are really good. If you already have a lower than you can use CMMG/Endo mag conversions to turn 5.56 pmags into 9mm to be used with the 9mm upper.
 
Imo, you’ve got two options of those you listed:
Ruger PCC
AR9

None of the others are good choices for multi gun competition, except possibly the CZ.

If money is a concern, the Ruger is going to be very hard to beat.
 
PSA [or FM]. Plenty reliable enough, priced right. If you go with PSA, opt for the EPT trigger.
 
CMMG also makes the 9mm “conversion” uppers that use the standard AR lower and Pmags with the 9mm inserts. These work great and you don’t have to have a special lower or the look of pistol mags (if that bothers you) in your AR. I have both the 9mm and 5.7 conversion uppers that use the PMags and haven’t had any trouble with either. CMMG products are great, but a bit pricey!
 
Have you looked at the Beretta CX-4? I have one, and it's my favorite of all my PCCs. Reliable, fairly short compared to others, as the action is set slightly to the rear, plenty of real estate for mounting optics and sights, and it's well balanced.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

That is what I would have said. Loved mine when I had it.
 
Just my two cents regarding the AR9. CMMG stuff is way to rich for me so I put together a 16" PSA AR9. Multi-cal lower and Endomag conversion Pmags. The Endomag conversions are OK, but I don't think they are reliable enough for competition. I have to screw with them every now and then to keep them working well. Also, it's pretty well useless past 50 yards for anything smaller than a man sized target. Fun to shoot though.
 
Yup that can be a problem with some of those conversions. Reliability is why I popped my 16” upper on a PSA glock mag lower. Very reliable in the matches I have run them in. Not sure of the prices now but when I put it together a couple years ago a complete lower was about $289 and the complete upper was about $379.
 
Look closely at what kind of matches you want to shoot. Some stuff like falling steel and USPSA and 2/3gun you can benefit from big mags. Bigger than 30 rounds.
Glock mags are nice because they are relatively cheap and there are a lot of options for extensions. And if you start enjoying PCC, you are gonna want extensions.

Magazines are super critical in competition and get well used/dropped/dumped. So they are an important consideration. Also, are there belt mounted mag holders that are readily available for your mags? Or, are you going to have to look for custom ones. You'll need two at least.

If your intent is to just blow off some steam, be safe, and have a good time, and you have no interest in really competing, then anything listed in this thread will "work".

But if you are at all competitive and at least want to know that your equipment doesn't suck, it might be really worth going to a match that has a lot of PCC's and see what is being used. Like a carbine match. All these people shooting have gone through this and you can see what they have arrived at. It's really helpful to see. Also, I think most people are super helpful at matches and will be happy to help, even a bystander, if you talk to them after they shoot.
Check out Brian Enos forum, which has a very good section on competition PCC's.

Personally, I have found having something easily upgradeable is nice. And I like all my rifle/carbine controls to be easily changed and similar, so I like an AR9. But they can take some tinkering and tuning.

There are a lot of cool PCC's that are fun to own and shoot that are not really great for competition. Often they have sub-gun ergo's which make it difficult to use modern rifle shooting techniques. Or more difficult to reload. Or unsuitable mags. Short forearms. Horrible triggers. Or all of the above. etc etc.

You can spend a lot of money making bad gun decisions, lol.
 
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@dbracin has built quite a few AR9's on a budget. And shot them a lot.
Maybe he'll chime in.
 
i like my ruger pcc. i have not run any competitions with it but i was hitting a steel silhouette at 200 yards using a red dot once i figured out my hold over
 
I loaded up some warm 125 grain loads today, and I have some 147 grain loads ready. Unfortunately.... I don't have any 115 grain pills...... I would love to load up some 1300+fps loads, but It won't happen yet. I have some 115 grain pills on order, but I don't know when I will actually get them.

Hopefully Saturday or Sunday Morning I will try it out.
 
Another thing that came to mind......most triggers in this type of firearm are pretty bad. The Ruger is fairly good and can be better. AR's have a great aftermarket for triggers. The CZ trigger is awful from the factory, but can be made better. It will not be as food as tbe Ruger or AR though. The reviews I have seen on the Stribog trigger are bad.

Next time i go out.......i will what the rooga will do at 100. Im curious now......

I have original Stribog, trigger is far better than the Scorpion trigger with the HBI spring set (which I also have), I would say Stribog is very close to trigger in my 45 acp Banshee.
 
I've got a lot of PCCs but only 1 in a 16" barrels and that's an AR9 (Colt pattern mags). If I did it over, I wouldn't have built that upper. It wasn't expensive but it just doesn't make sense. To me a PCC with a 16" barrel in general doesn't make sense.

Having said that, if I was going to get one to shoot matches, it'd be an MPX in 16".
 
If the budget is 1500$ or more I’d change my recommendation to:

MBX PCC (not to be confused with sig MPX)
Or
JP PCC.

The JP is bulletproof and most reliable competition PCC I have seen.
 
I've shot a Scorpion and my first impression "was wow, that trigger sucks!". I'm leaning toward the Ruger or an AR 9 or even the Sub 2000. At the matches I'm shooting I've seen a couple of Sig MPX's. One which was having mag/feeding issues and lots of AR 9's. Have seen several Sub2000's (amongst my fellow, near the bottom shooters). I'm not one of the top tiered shooters at these events. I'm usually close to the bottom. I'm okay with just a gun that will run and be accurate enough. I enjoy shooting and figure the more matches I shoot the better I'll get. Given the cost and availability of ammo right now, I may put this on the back burner for a bit. However, you know how it is when you want something new. LOL. Did I mention I just sold a pistol on consignment :)
 
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If you just want a gun that will run and not break the bank - Ruger PCC is the ticket IMHO. If you can up the budget - I'll echo @NKD above and say the JP is rock solid. I've built four AR9's now, and my next one will probably just be a JP.

I really like the Sig MPX's, but the first few iterations had issues. I think the newest one has a lot of those kinks worked out, but I dont know for sure.
 
If you just want a gun that will run and not break the bank - Ruger PCC is the ticket IMHO. If you can up the budget - I'll echo @NKD above and say the JP is rock solid. I've built four AR9's now, and my next one will probably just be a JP.

I really like the Sig MPX's, but the first few iterations had issues. I think the newest one has a lot of those kinks worked out, but I dont know for sure.

Jessica Hook uses the MPX and has for while. Prob has had all the versions. Can’t say I’ve ever seen her gun fail. I think she gets hers from Taran tho so not sure what is done to them?
I do think the newer ones are more reliable. Seen a few of the old ones have various problems.

I always wonder why they don’t make the gas adjustable on them? At any rate, they do shoot super soft.
 
I love my CX4 but the trigger is probably >10lbs.
I'm sure something could be done about that. That being said, it might be the form factor, but it doesn't feel that bad.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 
I'm sure something could be done about that. That being said, it might be the form factor, but it doesn't feel that bad.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
The best thing about the CX4 is the ergos, and what stands out most to me is the fact that they used the grip as the mag well, instead of having a separate one in front of the pistol grip like most all the others (Sub2000 is one of the exceptions). This design makes the overall length of the weapon about 3 inches shorter, and arguably improves mag changes as well as overall handling and manuverability, also offering less of a chance someone can grab it as you clear the house.

There is ZERO reason to have a mag well in front of the pistol grip in a pistol caliber carbine. Why do so many manufacturers do it, other than to make it look like an AR, etc?

The CX4 is also extremely reliable, but that trigger sucks and there is only one aftermarket solution which is expensive but only a marginal improvement IIRC.
 
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My take on the sub2000 is it's awesome except for:

1. Inability to easily add optics. I don't like the rotating handguards. I had one and you wind up with your optic sticking up 90° out of plane when folded and no longer able to lay flat in a briefcase, etc. A better solution is to simply screw a piece of picatinny rail on the bottom of the foregrip and keep a red dot on a QD mount. Swap it to the bottom when you fold it. Holds zero well enough for a PCC. The best solution for a sub2k IMO is leave it exactly as it is, simple, lightweight, and compact.

2. The biggest con to the S2K IMO is the cheek weld. Since the buffer tube is the stock like an AR the sights should be higher than they are for a comfortable cheek weld, so you really have to get your face sideways and way down on the buffer tube, which screws with wearing ear muffs.
 
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There is ZERO reason to have a mag well in front of the pistol grip in a pistol caliber carbine. Why do so many manufacturers do it, other than to make it look like an AR, etc?

One reason is that you can train same reloads as rifle. Also, radically different grips can be used.
 
One reason is that you can train same reloads as rifle. Also, radically different grips can be used.
If the object is a rifle training tool then yeah, but unless that's the primary objective it's silly.
 
If the object is a rifle training tool then yeah, but unless that's the primary objective it's silly.

I feel like it's easier to reload, too. Personally, I wouldn't want the mag in the grip. Some of these mags are 35+ rounds. If you want the gun to be tiny I can see it, but this guy wants a competition gun with a 16" barrel. There's no benefit to a little/compact gun at all really.

I don't see why it is silly but to each their own I guess. Just my opinion.
 
@GregB

I had some promising results today.....
Stock Ruger......off sandbags with a 3x9 scope at 100 yards.

I only tried 124-126 grain bullets today an my groups.ranged from 3.25 inches to 5 inches.

My best 2 groups came from a 126 hard cast semi wadcutter. (.356 diameter) averaging 1200 fps using wfs powder. Those two groups were 3.25 and 3.5 inches.

My worst 2 groups came from a .355 diameter plated 125 grain round nose bullet averaging 1315 fps. Both were about 5 inches.

The rifle definitely liked the .356 diameter hard cast the better than jacketed or plated .355 diameter.

I would also.like to give the Ruger some respect........i wasnt sure how it would feed the 126 grain semi wadutter (it looks like the tip of a crayola crayon) but it gave me no problems.
 
Thanks for the input. Shot one of the local 3 gun matches last Saturday. Two of the guys were using the Sub2000 as their "rifle", I was using my .22 M&P 15 (because I could). I really need to shoot a Sub200 gen 2 with a dot and muffs. Probably should do the same with an AR 9 and a Ruger PCC if possible. If I go with the Sub 2000, I doubt I'd fold it much. Would probably mount the dot and just leave it.

I've owned a Hi Point Carbine in both 9mm and 45 ACP. I was disappointed in the amount of recoil from a PCC. Are AR9's, Sub 200o's, or the Ruger softer recoiling in your opinion?
 
Blowback PCC's are going to be clunky recoiling, generally. In fact half the battle in PCC's is getting them to shoot flat. This is what I meant by "tuning".

Ideally, you want to tune the gun for the least amount of "dot bounce". This can be achieved in several ways. The cartridge load being an important factor. The heavy buffers common in blowback PCC's exacerbate the clunky feeling as you have a big weight slamming back and forth. Causing muzzle rise and muzzle dip.

With an AR-15, 90% of this movement can be eradicated by a muzzle brake, as the 556 produces tons of gas out of the muzzle. This abundance of gas can also be metered, and the recoil system lightened, to further reduce muzzle/dot/reticle movement. Unfortunately, a 9mm out of a 16" barrel has very little gas left over. So muzzle brakes/comps are less effective. So tuning in PCC's is often related to buffer system and ammo.

But you can get an AR9 to be very fast and not clunky at all. I'm sure if you tried one of Geerub's carbines you feel like you were cheating. He's a very good shooter and would be handicapped by a crap gun.

Keltec is going to be what it is. Neat gun, fun to shoot and not very competitive. If you were closer you'd be welcome to try my AR9. It's ugly but it shoots great, lol.
 
I checked the trigger pull on the roogah, it was 4.25 lbs with a short amount of creep. For a factory trigger on a semi auto......that is very good.
 
My take on the sub2000 is it's awesome except for:

2. The biggest con to the S2K IMO is the cheek weld. Since the buffer tube is the stock like an AR the sights should be higher than they are for a comfortable cheek weld, so you really have to get your face sideways and way down on the buffer tube, which screws with wearing ear muffs.

I just changed the back sight on mine with a MCARBO folding replacement. It’s a bit taller and you can get a ring or notched version. Simple to install and keeps you from mashing your cheek into the buffer tube. You can also fold it down manually with the lever to get it out of the way of a red dot.
 
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