Ken Hackathorn-Larry Vickers Advanced Handgun

Amp Mangum said:
I shouldn't have shot it because I wasn't planning on buying another gun this year!

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That is why I did not touch Wahoo95's CZ Scorpion. If I shot I would be buying one. LMAO. Got other things to in the works I have to complete before a fun gun like that. The Wilson was a sweet little pistol. It did fail to ignite Prvi 9mm primers which are known to be hard.
 
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I wanted to add this to what has already been said about the class.

One of the best parts of the course was later in the evening after we had a group dinner. We did a Low/No-light shoot. If you have never shot in the dark with or without a light you need to do it. It is eye opening. First we shot with no lights. We were in “country” so the amount of ambient light was much lower than you would have in a city or suburbia. There was some light but really not much. If you did not have night sights you could not see sights. If you had night sights they helped but not as much as you would think.

The number one issue with the night sights is that your mind has a tendency to focus on the thing closets to it. I was using a Glock 17 with FBI 3 dot night sights. I shot a CZ during the day but it has a fiber optic sight which I knew would be a disadvantage in the dark. When you have 3 identical dots on the same focal plane it is hard in the dark to tell the front for the back. It was very easy to confuse your sight picture.

One of the more interesting parts of the night shoot was the muzzle flash characteristics of different rounds with different powders. People took turns come to the firing line stating what ammo they had in the gun and they would shoot a round. The spectrum of light went from white light , orange light and then red light. We all stood where we could see the flash. The whiter the light the more it blinded you. The rounds with high white light characteristics would render the shooter blind of the target after just 2 shots. Orange was not as bad. Red did not influence the vision much at all. Many people shot defensive rounds so you could see what they did since most shootings and gunfights happen in low light or no light situations. KH suggested that one should consider this when they purchase defensive ammo. Some will used flash suppressed powder others do not. Here are some of the results. If other people remember it differently please comment and correct me.


Winchester Ranger 12 +P+ a older LEO round had a very red signature.

Gold Dot was more orange-red but not as low as Win Ranger.

Hornady, 9mm Luger, JHP / XTP was middle of the road pretty orange.

MEM Nato Ball was red with small signature.

Wolf (don't remember Gr) Orange to red. Was surprisingly good.

RWS 9mm 124gr Swiss was red with a small signature similar to MEN.

Federal Hi-Shock was orange to white but not a big signature.

Federal HST was orange to white with a pretty big flash.


For me the biggest take away was the HST. It does great in penetration and expansion tests but it had one of the bigger brighter more blinding muzzle flash signatures of any of the ammo shot. It was by far the worst of the JHPs. The older Winchester was the best of the JHPs IIRC. KH said sometimes your choice in JHP should be more than what it does in ballistic jelly on YouTube.
 
wvsig said:
I wanted to add this to what has already been said about the class.

One of the best parts of the course was later in the evening after we had a group dinner. We did a Low/No-light shoot. If you have never shot in the dark with or without a light you need to do it. It is eye opening. First we shot with no lights. We were in “country” so the amount of ambient light was much lower than you would have in a city or suburbia. There was some light but really not much. If you did not have night sights you could not see sights. If you had night sights they helped but not as much as you would think.

The number one issue with the night sights is that your mind has a tendency to focus on the thing closets to it. I was using a Glock 17 with FBI 3 dot night sights. I shot a CZ during the day but it has a fiber optic sight which I knew would be a disadvantage in the dark. When you have 3 identical dots on the same focal plane it is hard in the dark to tell the front for the back. It was very easy to confuse your sight picture.

One of the more interesting parts of the night shoot was the muzzle flash characteristics of different rounds with different powders. People took turns come to the firing line stating what ammo they had in the gun and they would shoot a round. The spectrum of light went from white light , orange light and then red light. We all stood where we could see the flash. The whiter the light the more it blinded you. The rounds with high white light characteristics would render the shooter blind of the target after just 2 shots. Orange was not as bad. Red did not influence the vision much at all. Many people shot defensive rounds so you could see what they did since most shootings and gunfights happen in low light or no light situations. KH suggested that one should consider this when they purchase defensive ammo. Some will used flash suppressed powder others do not. Here are some of the results. If other people remember it differently please comment and correct me.


Winchester Ranger 12 +P+ a older LEO round had a very red signature.

Gold Dot was more orange-red but not as low as Win Ranger.

Hornady, 9mm Luger, JHP / XTP was middle of the road pretty orange.

MEM Nato Ball was red with small signature.

Wolf (don't remember Gr) Orange to red. Was surprisingly good.

RWS 9mm 124gr Swiss was red with a small signature similar to MEN.

Federal Hi-Shock was orange to white but not a big signature.

Federal HST was orange to white with a pretty big flash.


For me the biggest take away was the HST. It does great in penetration and expansion tests but it had one of the bigger brighter more blinding muzzle flash signatures of any of the ammo shot. It was by far the worst of the JHPs. The older Winchester was the best of the JHPs IIRC. KH said sometimes your choice in JHP should be more than what it does in ballistic jelly on YouTube.
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This is great reference material for defense ammo right here. Thanks.

I had a G19 in the truck with night sights, but I wanted to run my G17 with nothing but a fiber front and black rear sight that I had been running all day to see what it was like. As an aside, I have found at night matches you can't see night sites glow when using a handheld light (or weapon mounted light) anyway.

The one thing that was shocking to me after Ken had us run some drills with lights, was shooting in the dark. I put six out of six head shots on the target in the dark at six yards, with no light, and no night sights. It was very surprising to me to be able to do that. It is amazing what you can do after some of the drills he had us run.
 
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It seems as though the class did not finish like it used to. If it had, I am sure somebody would mention it. The class used to end with you and a partner of your choice trading places to do some 7 yard shooting. You stood by an IPSC cardboard target, with your head right by the target head. Your partner stood 7 yards down range and on the command "UP!", he drew his pistol and fired a center hit on the cardboard target.......yeah, the one right by your head. There was so much up roar about this, I am not surprised if he stopped. When the up roar was at it's worst, he and I talked and I remember his comment...Hell Billy, this stuff is for big boys! I agreed then and I agree still do. I remember trying to not close my eyes as my partner drew his P35 brought it on target and pressed the trigger, I was not successful, I closed them just as I heard the 9MM crack.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
It seems as though the class did not finish like it used to. If it had, I am sure somebody would mention it. The class used to end with you and a partner of your choice trading places to do some 7 yard shooting. You stood by an IPSC cardboard target, with your head right by the target head. Your partner stood 7 yards down range and on the command "UP!", he drew his pistol and fired a center hit on the cardboard target.......yeah, the one right by your head. There was so much up roar about this, I am not surprised if he stopped. When the up roar was at it's worst, he and I talked and I remember his comment...Hell Billy, this stuff is for big boys! I agreed then and I agree still do. I remember trying to not close my eyes as my partner drew his P35 brought it on target and pressed the trigger, I was not successful, I closed them just as I heard the 9MM crack.
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Midday Sunday after a day and a night shooting together, the row in back is advancing towards the target while engaging the target with 7-8 shots, and the alternating row in front is retreating from the target while engaging the target 7-8 shots. They pass each other and continue engaging the targets, WITH reloads up-range while shooters are downrange and continue engaging the targets. Moving, shooting, and reloading, with shooters downrange with their back to the shooters uprange.
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fieldgrade said:
Midday Sunday after a day and a night shooting together, the row in back is advancing towards the target while engaging the target with 7-8 shots, and the alternating row in front is retreating from the target while engaging the target 7-8 shots. They pass each other and continue engaging the targets, WITH reloads up-range while shooters are downrange and continue engaging the targets. Moving, shooting, and reloading, with shooters downrange with their back to the shooters uprange.
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I actually enjoyed that drill. The biggest risk comes after the shooting stops and someone fat fingers their trigger while not maintaining muzzle/trigger discipline but we had a good group of shooters out there. I wouldn't do that with just any group!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
Wahoo95 said:
I actually enjoyed that drill. The biggest risk comes after the shooting stops and someone fat fingers their trigger while not maintaining muzzle/trigger discipline but we had a good group of shooters out there. I wouldn't do that with just any group!
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...and my squads reload's with folks downrange. "KEEP YOUR GUN IN YOUR WORKSPACE!!" I think that's the loudest I heard Ken give instructions all weekend.
 
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fieldgrade said:
This is great reference material for defense ammo right here. Thanks.

I had a G19 in the truck with night sights, but I wanted to run my G17 with nothing but a fiber front and black rear sight that I had been running all day to see what it was like. As an aside, I have found at night matches you can't see night sites glow when using a handheld light (or weapon mounted light) anyway.

The one thing that was shocking to me after Ken had us run some drills with lights, was shooting in the dark. I put six out of six head shots on the target in the dark at six yards, with no light, and no night sights. It was very surprising to me to be able to do that. It is amazing what you can do after some of the drills he had us run.
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Natural point of aim at play there. I was going to run the CZ but chickened out. LOL

Another point to remember is that ammo manufacturers change powders based on what it available. They also change it based on contract specs so if you are buying overruns the results might vary. For example a Lucky Gunner post on this subject in 2013 showed 9mm 147gr HST to be pretty low flash.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/muzzle-flash/
 
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Update I spoke with Federal about the HST and the tech I spoke to said that they do not use a low flash propellant in any of the HST line regardless of caliber
 
I was just out brining in the trash cans, and found myself turning off my headlamp while moving around. Don't want the possums getting the jump on me while I've got the bullet magnet on.
 
Jayne said:
I was just out brining in the trash cans, and found myself turning off my headlamp while moving around. Don't want the possums getting the jump on me while I've got the bullet magnet on.
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Those Wake county Gat Possums are smooth on the draw. :eek:
 
The Horse puts in his two cents or actually several cents after this weekend.......

1st Thanks Amp, for teaching me lots about shooting, mind set, and life! 28 years ago, wow where did the time go?

I've trained with Ken and Larry a few times each. Amp, Randall and myself shot with them on a "super squad" at the Carolina Cup about 5 years ago on a Thursday while Larry did some filming for his show. This time, I wanted my family to shoot with these two great trainers. My boys were all for it and my wife (a 6th Grade middle school teacher) was excited, worried, and fearful she wasn't good enough. The instruction, as always, was great. In fact, Alex my youngest talked about how Ken spoke to everyone at the end of the class and could remember what each person needed to work on. Maria said that Larry and Ken were class acts. She also said the instruction was personalized, relevant, and well presented. She was was very impressed and went to school on Monday and encouraged the few teachers that actually owns handguns to get training and to practice.

The group of folks that was in this class was safe and good shooters. Amp and Randall are hard acts to follow! Justin D. is a very very good shooter. I was really impressed with his ability to shoot fast and accurate with a 1911 or a Beretta 92.

Bottom line.... its costly for great training, good equipment, ammo, lodging and etc.........SO! If you carry a pistol, it needs to be a good dependable one, as well as the ammo, your belt and holster, and a person needs to train and practice. Ken used to say, " great practice is what matters." Therefore, when you come to a class soak it up, take notes,and try to be the ultimate sponge, so you can practice the drills and put the money you spent to good use. I'd tell anyone to train with these men. It will cost you, but well worth the money and time.

Wahoo, please contact me! I missed getting your number and email. I'd like for you and your guys to come out and shoot with me and the family, we are not far from you. In fact, there is a match at Lexington this Saturday on the 24th.

That's it folks. Keep your head on a swivel in this crazy world, treat people like you want to be treated, and pray to God for strength, honor, and his will to be done.
 
Amp Mangum said:
The TEST:

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The one thing to keep in mind when shooting “The Test” is that only hits in the “grapefruit” count. With LAVs time scoring you can pass with a D+ if you drop 2. KH gives you a little more slack and you can drop a few more and still pass.

The goal is to be able to put all 10 in the black. Dropping no shots. This might mean for many of us we have to start slower than we want to be and work towards that 10 second time.

In “the real world” you will be better served with 10 true hits in the grapefruit in 12+ seconds than 7 in 10.
 
Went to get my new membership orientation at woodys today and the owner was telling me what an amazing class it was last weekend. You all were some lucky someone's who got to make it.
 
Bought some NRA bullseye targets today to practice "The Test".
Ten yards, ten rounds, ten seconds.

I'd been running it on an IDPA target in 8 seconds, which I have set up once a week anyway, but the down zero section of the IDPA target is larger than the 9 and 10 rings of the NRA target. Almost identical to the size of the NRA 8 ring.

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fieldgrade said:
Bought some NRA bullseye targets today to practice "The Test".
Ten yards, ten rounds, ten seconds.

I'd been running it on an IDPA target in 8 seconds, which I have set up once a week anyway, but the down zero section of the IDPA target is larger than the 9 and 10 rings of the NRA target. Almost identical to the size of the NRA 8 ring.

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I bought a pack of 100 of those from Brownells the other day for $7 shipped!
 
wvsig said:
I bought a pack of 100 of those from Brownells the other day for $7 shipped!
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I bought a pack from Bass Pro for six bucks and I am pretty sure it's not 100. Probably 25.
But I have lots of pasters!
 
PKKx39 said:
What’s that device on the back of LAVs GLOCK?
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Edit: I see what you are talking about. Looks like a Vickers slide racker.
 
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