Advice on Teaching Daughter

thrillhill

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My eldest daughter (16 years old) is kind of my mini-me. It's awesome. She has her own gun safe in her bedroom and plenty of her own guns. She open carries (home-school) most days when doing yard wok or walking in the woods to find wild edibles etc. Thanks to a couple of awesome friends she got into competing in the 2 gun rimfire matches for a couple of years and did really well. She deer hunts and squirrel hunts, and she cleans what she kills. Heck she even cleans mine for me sometimes now. Same thing with with fishing. She catches and cleans. Pretty cool kid if I do say so myself. She is really comfortable with firearms.

But now I've ran into a bit of a brick wall when it comes to teaching her.

I can't seem to teach her wing-shooting. Probably because I kinda suck at it myself.

I swear it sometimes seems like I grew up with a shotgun in my crib. But it was never about wing-shooting. It was all about buckshot (deer hunting/home defense) and some squirrel hunting. I'm fine with both of those.
But when I go dove hunting (which is the only bird hunting I have ever done and plan to do) sometimes I can limit out and sometimes I fire 50 rounds to hit 3 birds. I am fine with that. Problem is, I can't explain it to my daughter when I do good because I don't have a clue what I am doing. Sometimes I aim and sometimes I don't think I do. Sometimes I think about the shot and try to talk myself through it and sometimes I don't. I mainly do it to have fun and I feel like if I try to get really good at it or at least consistent it will be more like work and less like a social hunt activity.

So, she has been dove hunting about 4 times now. Not very good fields but she was able to get off a few shots each time. But she hasn't hit one yet, and although she loves eating doves her interest in dove hunting has certainly waned.

The first couple of times she went I let her use my older Wingmaster 20 gauge. 26 inch barrel, modified choke. The last couple of times she took her 20 gauge sided by side coach gun with 20 inch barrels. So she does not have a dedicated dove hunting shotgun.

I'd like to maybe buy her a more appropriate gun. I no longer have that Wingmaster, so we are gonna be a fresh slate in that regard. Her LOP is longer than mine on rifles so I assume the same would be true on shotguns. Not sure where to start on getting her a shotgun. What I don't want to get at this stage is anything fancy that can only be used shooting clays or doves. I would like her to learn on something fairly utilitarian. I would like to get her a shotgun that she could dove hunt with, or turkey hunt if she decides to take that up. Or do any other number of things. I know 870s and I know utility side by sides. That's it. I don't know anything about semiautos or Beretta or Benelli or Franchi or over and unders. I had a Stoeger one time and liked it but didn't keep it more than a year.

I love the understated utility of 20 gauge. But should I get her a 12 instead? She ain't scared of recoil. Would a 20 be unduly handicapping her?



And I also figure it is time for "outside instruction".

I looked up the "shotgun shooting school" closest to me geographically.

Shotgun instruction is $100 per hour.
If I want to take it with her it is $150 per hour.

The guys here at work say that a couple of hours probably would not be enough to accomplish what I want.
Problem is I can't afford more than that.

I do have a friend that has an electronic thrower of some sort at his house so his son could practice for the FFA shooting team at school. Should I just get her a shotgun that I think will work and take her over to his place a few times?


What advice would y'all give in regards to picking out a gun for her?

And should I stay away from the backyard shoots until I can afford formal instruction or what?


Thanks
Bill
 
You have a 16 yr old daughter that does things with you, you suck.

I don’t have a good answer for you, but how good would she be with a rifle if she only got off a few shots a month? Practice is clearly the right answer, but doing it without first developing a bunch of bad habits may require a bit of training.
 
Maybe I'm overlooking the simple?

I could buy one of those hand throwers here at work and a couple of boxes of clays and we could go home and just have fun.

I am half afraid that she might pick up some bad habits early on though because I don't know how to articulate what I do right when I do it right.

I've only shot Clays twice in my life and it was with one of those $30 Walmart throwers in my friend's backyard.
 
These little foot traps are cheap, safe (not gonna break a finger/hand) and a whole bunch of fun. No, it's not a top of the line electronic thrower that requires a tweed vest and Orvis shooting coat, but it will provide hours and hours of practice solo or with a partner.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/TRIUS-1-STEP-PORTABLE-CLAY-TARGET-TRAP/17800562

I think you'd get more mileage out of a couple cases of clays than a couple hours of instruction. At her age, there's not a lot to unlearn, right?

 
I am half afraid that she might pick up some bad habits early on though because I don't know how to articulate what I do right when I do it right.
Not trying to be a pain, but most likely, you aren’t ever actually doing it right, just getting lucky occasionally. If you don’t know a good shotgun shooter that can teach you _both_, then find a pro. And shotguns for clays/hunting are best if fit to the shooter so that they aim naturally. It is more than LOP. Again, worth having someone who knows what they are doing get your guns to fit you.

I am not a good shotgun shooter, I just know what I don’t know (or some of it anyway). I have been around a lot of very good shotgun shooters at DCWC in RTP. I have played around and shot many rounds of skeet and trap there, but with my 3gun shotgun, which got some strange looks :) My focus has always been action shooting and recently some precision so I haven’t gotten into shotguns seriously.


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Not trying to be a pain, but most likely, you aren’t ever actually doing it right, just getting lucky occasionally. If you don’t know a good shotgun shooter that can teach you _both_, then find a pro. And shotguns for clays/hunting are best if fit to the shooter so that they aim naturally. It is more than LOP. Again, worth having someone who knows what they are doing get your guns to fit you.

I am not a good shotgun shooter, I just know what I don’t know (or some of it anyway). I have been around a lot of very good shotgun shooters at DCWC in RTP. I have played around and shot many rounds of skeet and trap there, but with my 3gun shotgun, which got some strange looks :) My focus has always been action shooting and recently some precision so I haven’t gotten into shotguns seriously.


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No I hear you, and I don't disagree one bit.

But, I'm not even really looking for her to become a "really good" shotgun shooter (unless she wants to pursue that) .

I'll be happy if we can just get her to the point where she actually enjoys dove hunting because she can hit one very once in a while.
 
Right down my alley, in no particular order, no she isn't handicapped with a 20. In my opinion that is about all the gun a person needs for most bird hunting. I use 20 or 28 (and sometimes .410) on doves, quail, grouse, ducks and geese. Just learn to pick your shots and keep them at about 35 yards max and use the proper choke. It doesn't matter if it's an O/U, pump or semi auto the gun fit is very critical. Without proper fit the gun will never shoot to where she looks. How tall is she and what is her dominate arm length?? Do you know what her dominate eye is at this time??

There is a decent skeet field at John Lentz Complex which shouldn't be too far from you that would be a decent place to start. They have 2 skeet fields that are most likely deserted during the week but I don't know about weekends. Cost is very reasonable and pressure to perform is very low.

I'd be happy to meet you guys over there for an afternoon if you would like....
 
Right down my alley, in no particular order, no she isn't handicapped with a 20. In my opinion that is about all the gun a person needs for most bird hunting. I use 20 or 28 (and sometimes .410) on doves, quail, grouse, ducks and geese. Just learn to pick your shots and keep them at about 35 yards max and use the proper choke. It doesn't matter if it's an O/U, pump or semi auto the gun fit is very critical. Without proper fit the gun will never shoot to where she looks. How tall is she and what is her dominate arm length?? Do you know what her dominate eye is at this time??

There is a decent skeet field at John Lentz Complex which shouldn't be too far from you that would be a decent place to start. They have 2 skeet fields that are most likely deserted during the week but I don't know about weekends. Cost is very reasonable and pressure to perform is very low.

I'd be happy to meet you guys over there for an afternoon if you would like....


I'm off on Mondays.

I've never been to John Lentz but I do have a couple of friends that work there. It's a little over an hour from the house so that would not be bad. Been meaning to get by Midsouth anyway on one of my off days. That would put me close enough in the neighborhood.

I may need to take you up on that soon Bill.

You think I should maybe go ahead and buy her some kind of semi 20 gauge that maybe has LOP inserts? Or just bring what we have?
 
I’m no Bailey Boat and I’ve never hit 100 out of 100 but I ain’t bad for someone that shoots once a year at best. And I use a pump cause I sold my semi. Once you get a thrower I’ll be glad to come down and make some noise with ya.
 
I may need to take you up on that soon Bill.

You should definitely take him up on that offer, there isn't a coach in this world that would be a better value than just spending time with @Bailey Boat and learning the fundamentals.

He's a little bit "handsy", but he's impotent, so you don't have a lot to worry about. :D;)
 
Well, a guy here at the shop who used to work there informed me that the John Lentz Complex is closed on Sundays and Mondays, my usual days off. May have to do some trading around of days.
 
Don't buy her anything until we figure out a few things first. I'll bring several guns for her to try but be warned, none of them are for sale!!

I'm going to be in AR for the next 2 Mondays guiding on Lake Ouchita but anytime after than is doable. I'm not stuck on Lentz, it was just the first one that I thought might be a reasonable distance from you. If you can find something more convenient that would work also...

Start watching for sale's on 20 ga shells, 2.75", 7/8 oz, 8's would be best but 7.5's would work in a pinch.... OR... I can bring her some from here at 5.49 per box... let me know...
 
Start watching for sale's on 20 ga shells, 2.75", 7/8 oz, 8's would be best but 7.5's would work in a pinch.... OR... I can bring her some from here at 5.49 per box... let me know...

That will not be a problem.

I appreciate it Bill. I'll start pming you in a week or two.
 
Right down my alley, in no particular order, no she isn't handicapped with a 20. In my opinion that is about all the gun a person needs for most bird hunting. I use 20 or 28 (and sometimes .410) on doves, quail, grouse, ducks and geese. Just learn to pick your shots and keep them at about 35 yards max and use the proper choke. It doesn't matter if it's an O/U, pump or semi auto the gun fit is very critical. Without proper fit the gun will never shoot to where she looks. How tall is she and what is her dominate arm length?? Do you know what her dominate eye is at this time??

There is a decent skeet field at John Lentz Complex which shouldn't be too far from you that would be a decent place to start. They have 2 skeet fields that are most likely deserted during the week but I don't know about weekends. Cost is very reasonable and pressure to perform is very low.

I'd be happy to meet you guys over there for an afternoon if you would like....

Those are the best ideas!

When I did wing hunt it was dove and quail but a 20ga was also my largest ... I wish I had a 28ga too! For any long gun I think fit is important but for wing shooting it’s damn important and most shotguns have a LOP to long for a female especially a young one. Sleet and trap are very good teaching and practice tools ... sporting clays too when she gets the basics down will sharpen it even more. TO ME sporting clays come later in my book because while they do offer a practical aspect they can be damn frustrating for a new and learning shooter ... or a crappy old shooter like me still.

As to gun ... I’d suggest get her a decent 20ga over/under and she how she takes to it. I like pumps and semis for general purpose but there is something so sweet about an over/under for clay and wing shooting ... especially when fitted properly it almost floats as you point.
 
That will not be a problem.

I appreciate it Bill. I'll start pming you in a week or two.
I bet y’all could live stream this get-together and sell enough tickets to buy her a shotgun. :D
 
I’m not sure how far you are from Durham County Wildlife Club. I see you’re in Chatham County but I also knot it’s a big county. There are plenty of people there that can teach skeet which would be most of the fundamentals for dove.


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Bill no real good advise on training as I was kinda self taught and sure I am full of bad habits myself but have a couple manual skeet throwers you could borrow if you want since I rarely use them.
 
DCWC (DCWC.info) in RTP is open to the public on weekends for skeet and trap (11-3 Sat, 1-5 Sun). That’s a good idea for a place to hang out and ask questions and shoot some trap and/or skeet.

Not as good an idea as personal lessons from @Bailey Boat though.


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Well obviously BB is your go-to, but some things I've noticed when we have shotgun day up here on the mountain.
We get all types...Grandma, kids, Marines, young, old, newbies and well heeled.
All shotguns are welcome. We get all the guns, 410, 20, 12, semi, single, pump SxS, o/u, bolt...
wolfie mountains 5-16 014 .22.jpg
Everyone over 13 yrs old shot the o/u (2nd from the top) the best. That's a Japanese Winchester 12ga and though not hyper-pricey as far as shotguns go, it's still $1000. But it's just built for the job and you about can't miss. The experts made it look easy and the newbies fell right in to it. I'd advise some kind of o/u from just watching how easy folks take to that style and how well they do with it.
Some have the built in full choke. The toughest ones to use. When you do make a solid hit on the clay it powders it but you gotta be spot on. @BowWow makes a valid point, use the least restrictive choke, at least to begin with.
The ones with honest clay sights worked better than others with just the traditional bead set-up. They're designed to 'lead' the clay just a-bit and even though you sight at the clay, the sights compensate for lag time.

We use a battery powered thrower.
wolfie mountains 5-16 022 .22.jpg
We've since gotten a different model that throws farther and faster. Having the shooter stand in line with the throw is where to start with newbies...the clay just fly's straight away from you and it's easier to follow the birdie. With folks that start to get too good, I make them stand perpendicular with the throw and make them swing the gun from right to left, or my favorite game that I call 'ice the kicker'. Shooter says 'pull' and I'll take up to 5 seconds to release the clay. The clay is gonna come out within that 5 seconds but they don't know when. This is more challenging than it sounds on paper and it really messes with your head, but it's great practice to keep you focused.

One of the things that bothers people is ear protection that interferes with a proper cheek weld. Since shotguns make a low boom instead of a sharp crack, often good foamie ear plugs or the like will suffice and make it lots easier to handle the gun.

Most very important thing...have fun with it! Don't get all caught up in perfect stance and corrections of this and that. Follow all the safety stuff of course, but let them get used to the idea, and as time goes on the fine-tuning can commence.

One last thought; a Taurus Judge is not the best choice for shotgun day. :rolleyes:
 
nothing substantive to add. I just love this thread and smile at the thought of the "problem." It is really a great thing to have a connection with a daughter who is not so vapid, empty, silly and shaped by the values of the culture that all she thinks about is looking pretty and becoming a "normal girl"... ie, tramp moron and a parasite (to quote CS Lewis). You and Becky are to be commended for the job you are doing in raising those girls. I have seen it up close and personal and I respect you for it.

BTW. Wing shots are all I have ever been able to do on a semi consistent basis. I think it was because I once took a shot at a dove that must have been 70 yards away, and my dad got all excited and said "GREAT shot! Wow! I don't think I could have hit that bird myself" (he was a great shot in the dove field). It made me really work at doing well. I have a feeling that your approval with her will carry the day and make her work at it, which is all that she will need to be successful.

Again, this thread makes me smile.
 
I’m no Bailey Boat and I’ve never hit 100 out of 100 but I ain’t bad for someone that shoots once a year at best. And I use a pump cause I sold my semi. Once you get a thrower I’ll be glad to come down and make some noise with ya.

Ditto. I grew up doing it all the time. Rarely get the chance anymore.
 
I've never been able to wing shoot & every bird I've ever shot was sniped off a fence post with a .22 with a 4x scope or off a barn rafter with a Crosman pellet gun. I'm way to cross-dominant too shoot with both eyes open & have never taken a bird in flight. In BLET, we had to shoot a couple rounds of skeet (10 clays per) with the 870 & I couldn't do any better than 3/10.

Maybe I need to teach myself to shoot shotguns lefty? I dunno, but wing shooting is a skill I've never possessed.
 
Bowwow mentioned it but use an open choke. Granted unless you mic it or pattern it you won't know exactly what a choke does. Start her with Skeet or IC at the most. Number eight shot and a skeet choke is a real confidence builder within thirty yards. Heck if you can find some nine shot at a decent price that might now be a bad idea. My dad used to have a fun little target load in the 12 gauge of 7/8 oz. 9's that would bust them as far as you need on the sporting clays range.

As others have said the foot activated or pull type mounted throwers are better. You can get a consistent throw for her to practice the same shot over and over until she gets it down to muscle memory. The hand throwers are fun and simple but unless you're really good with it consistency is hard. A skeet field that is not busy is even better. I started at Coharie in Clinton and we'd go late in the afternoon on weekdays. Dad and I were often the only ones there. He'd put me at station 1 and I'd just practice incoming and outgoing. That builds confidence and then you can move to crossers.
 
It’s been almost a month. Have we had a @thrillhill & @Bailey Boat get-together? If so, how’s the daughter doing with wing shooting?
 
I've never been able to wing shoot & every bird I've ever shot was sniped off a fence post with a .22 with a 4x scope or off a barn rafter with a Crosman pellet gun. I'm way to cross-dominant too shoot with both eyes open & have never taken a bird in flight. In BLET, we had to shoot a couple rounds of skeet (10 clays per) with the 870 & I couldn't do any better than 3/10.

Maybe I need to teach myself to shoot shotguns lefty? I dunno, but wing shooting is a skill I've never possessed.

You can thank me later. I have them on all my shotguns and have sold a number of them after being introduced to them by another shooter at sporting clays. These things work. My daughter is cross dominate. I'm not, but I still see 2 beads with both eyes open. Not anymore. I shot exclusively both eyes open now.

http://www.meadowindustries.com/sights_sb-1.html
 
It’s been almost a month. Have we had a @thrillhill & @Bailey Boat get-together? If so, how’s the daughter doing with wing shooting?


Well,, you see, what happened was........! LOL!

I had a bit of an accident 3 weeks ago and ended up with stitches in the side of my heel. I took the stitches out a few days ago, a day later than what the PA advised, but alas she was wrong. As you can imagine that is a "high pressure" area to have an injury like that and I still have steri-strips on today trying to close that wound that I walk on every day out of necessity. So we've had to delay for a bit.


But, to allay your "social curiosity", Bailey Boat and I have already met and hung out on more than one occasion over the past several years, so nothing new to see there! LOL
 
But, to allay your "social curiosity", Bailey Boat and I have already met and hung out on more than one occasion over the past several years, so nothing new to see there! LOL
He’s been to my house and I’ve been to his...so I wasn’t too concerned about that part. :D

Was actually curious as to how the shooting lesson turned out. Sorry to hear about your accident...glad you’re recovering.
 
I'm no expert by any means but I'm a fair hand in the dove fields. I can "usually" get my limit with a box of shells.

I haven't read the entire thread so this may have already been said.

Use a 12 if she can handle it. 20 gauges and smaller are great guns for "experts" but for beginners they are a handicap. 20 gauge loads usually max out at 1 oz. With a 12 that is considered near the minimum load. Even a 1 1/8 load of 7 1/2's in a 12 is better than an ounce in a 20.

Use open or IC choke

Find a shotgun that fits. The old rule of trigger finger on trigger and butt in elbow hold is still better than nothing.

Remember that you aim a rifle but you POINT a shotgun

Stand at an angle and point your strong-side toe at the target.

Shotgun shooting is all about one fluid motion. The bird goes by, both eyes lock on the bird, the gun comes up and goes bang and the birds drops. One fluid motion. Your brain will do the calculations. Try to aim at the bird and you will generally miss. I carry my shotgun at port arms and when I feel the bird is in range the gun comes up and goes bang. Some old school instructors actually removed the front bead as it was more of a distraction to new shooters.

Practice! To begin, hang a plastic jug on a string from a tree and practice raising and hitting the jug in one fluid motion with both eyes open. Let your brain do the math for you. Don't aim at it! Then get a hand thrower and do the same with clays. The gun comes up, your brain locks on, the clay breaks up. Simple. :D
 
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For those that aren't too far away, Ft Bragg Clay Target Center is open to the public. It is only $90/year for civilians, located off-base in Spring Lake and rarely crowded. I visited earlier this year for the first time and joined that day. There are several guys who work there that can offer shooting instruction, prices are very good (especially if you join) and you can get a lot of practice in for relatively small funds (compared to shooting Sporting Clays). They off Skeet (12 regulation fields), Trap and 5 stand sporting clays. Skeet is the best practice for dove/duck shooting and it teaches the muscle memory needed to consistently shoot well. They are open Thursday evenings 1600-2000 as well as Friday, Sat, and Sunday days. Do an online search and check them out.

I have several kids and they all are shooting much better by practicing more frequently! Shooting is much more fun if you can hit what you are aiming at consistently! I was old-school trained at a young age to "point-shoot" while growing up quail hunting and dove hunting. The shotgun has always been my favorite weapon. One thing that I haven't seen in the thread is the importance of 'follow-through.' It is not instinctive and almost every person that I have taught to shoot always fails in this area. What I tell folks is to keep tracking the target like you plan on shooting it again if you miss the first time.

Another boon to teaching recoil-sensitive shooters is to reload your shells. The cheap Wally-world loads are usually 1300 FPS 3 Dram equivalent (or stronger) loads. If you reload, you can tailor your shells to a slightly shower speed with much less recoil. I agree that open chokes build confidence and even with light 7/8 to 1 oz loads, an improved cylinder choke will beak targets on the skeet field. Keep it fun! I have enjoyed reading this thread.
 
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