Pop Quiz ... Active Shooter What Would You Do?
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I'm trying to wrap my mind around all this, but it's new to me to even think about this stuff, so bear with me. How can you practice reacting to such a situation? Do you mean you train with your gun a lot?
I've been thinking about things like this more and more, but still not really sure how to prepare myself for it. As I said above, my instinct would be to hide, while a lot of you guys will run to the gunfire! I don't want to run towards the gunfire!! It sounds insane, but I can see why you'd do it.
How can an untrained older lady get her mind set up for doing something other than looking for a place to be invisible?
I think it takes a really special kind of person to even want to be in a profession that puts them in danger, and then they get all the training to reinforce that, and then you have the guy/girl who will run to where the problem is, and who will deal with it and maybe get killed because they did it.
The rest of us are not like that, we're going to pee ourselves and faint, probably. I'd like to not do that!!
Donnie D
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Well, so do I. BUT, you can practice until you are blue in the face, you still don't know for sure how you will react in this type of situation until, God forbid, we are in it, AND I certainly hope NONE of us are ever forced to find out. All of that said, you are right that we all should think about and practice for this very thing.
Practice practice practice and then practice some more. Practice in different places with different people at different times.
A few examples:
You probably drive, have been for years. So now you know how to react during certain sudden driving emergencies. Someone swerves in front of you, someone cuts you off, guy slams on his brakes. Maybe it’s snow or rain. You’ve been there, you know how you and your car perform in these situations.
Also, about a year ago I got into doing extreme obstacle course races. I was so stupidly nervous the first time I got into the starting corral. I ran the first race, bumbled my way through the obstacles the best I could. And finished. Now, when I run them I know, roughly, what to expect. The obstacles are always slightly different, set up in different order or in different places. But I now have the confidence to face the courses because I have before.
And that basically sums it all up: confidence. Know your equipment, know your skills, more importantly know your weaknesses.
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I don't think my brain has enough storage to know/contain all my weaknesses!
But I will continue with all the different kinds of training I can do, and hope some of it might help me if/when I need it.
@Millie I can't give you a great answer to this because I don't know much. I had a group at my club who would meet once a month for scenario-based "training". We practiced problem solving under simulated stress. Sometimes with a gun, sometimes not. Every month was a different "what if". I think it helped improve my mindset - and I hope I never know for sure. I've never been under incoming fire despite what you've heard about Charlotte.
If you can find a chance to work in a group scenario it's a lot more engaging than a normal day at the range... try it!
If you can find a chance to work in a group scenario it's a lot more engaging than a normal day at the range... try it!
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It sounds like an awesome kind of training, and I'll see if I can find something like that, thanks for the idea!
LoL on Charlotte....I've heard about it, and "FayetteNam", and even Henderson, and especially Myrtle Beach, where I ended up on a trip to Conway! The only gunfire I hear regularly that's not from me is from the range around the corner from my house.
Chuckman
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This is me. If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die eating a donut.....
I second most of what has been posted....
I will add: mental game-play. Born out in research, if you run through scenarios in your head and how you would you react in various situations the outcome has a higher likelihood to be how you practice them in your head.
There been a few studies on this with military pilots and medical providers.
Is this leagal?
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My edc consists of a cell phone and a cobalt razor knife, which is dull as crap from work...so, that being said. I'd flee away from the gunfire, and call 911, moving me and my family as quickly as possible for the back exits. Praying no one is laying in wait there. If all exits are blocked...find the guns in said Wally world(thats assuming they still carry firearms and ammo), load em up and start handing em out. Me and mine know how to shoot, and with buck shot, we are not as likely to miss... I'd rather be hiding with a fighting chance, than just waiting for my demise. In todays world...I kinda already feel that going out in public, without a gun, is very risky, playing with fire, so to speak.
No truer words were ever spoken. I can tell you one story along these lines.
I want to frame this correctly because it's very different than an active shooter for the lead-up. We as a military unit knew the deployment time, read and study the area, and start patrolling the area. So to say we were warmed up is very different than a cold start we all face today from an active shooter. I spent 5 years in the Airborne Infantry before my first combat event. We would train mostly on Bragg but twice a year around the US on Army posts doing Infantry things with blank fire, blanks with laser tag, dry fire, and live-fire shooting on paper and plastic targets. In 2001 we deployed to Kosovo on a peacekeeping mission, the week before Easter it went real.
First contact with live targets went damn near like training. Not a big deal physically or processing the situation as a doer or small team leader. Mentally it was half and half. Half damn bro, we did it, the other, was shaking off the rush and then processing one's own philosophy. Some succeeded, others not so much over the long term. During that deployment, I was involved in a few other ballistic conversations. Once we went to OEF 1 things, started to change for me personally, the exposer got odd for me at the least.
I relate this to jumping out of an airplane or repelling down a rope, the first time, is worse in your mind than the actual event. The 2nd to 15th event scares the hell out of you because you experience different things through the desensitization to the environment. After that, you are forged and its just another way to get to work.
As time ticked on, OEF, OIF, as I aged and grew I would not take the chances I did back in 2001 in Kosovo.
The point of this is this.
I have seen a hero become a zero in under a second. I have seen a zero become a hero in the same timeframe. I personally have been both in a 1 minute span of time. There is no shame in any of it unless one's actions cause another's needless death, you can only do what you can at that time.
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This'd probably be me
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georgel
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I've known a couple of BTDT (Been There Done That) types in law enforcement. In the shootings they were involed in, neither suffered the list of "problems" normally associated with shooting trauma. Both of them said it was just another training day. Both of them train hard and frequent, practicing scenarios they might encounter. Fortunately, all of the shootings they experienced few into those scenarios. This also allowed the to respond quickly and effectively. Training.
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Practicing mentally and physically is part of it. But be realistic too. Leave, hide, defend isn't the worst option out there. Leave if you can. Hide if you must. Plan to defend that hiding spot like your life depends on it. Which means your mental training kind of consists of "where are the exits", "where can I defend", and "how can I defend that".
I don't go to the mall often, but we end up there occasionally. And it's always as a family. If things went down where I could not exit I would want to retreat to a bathroom. They have long, small hallways that could be defended. And from the rear of the hallway you have time to establish if someone is a threat before they get to you. That's the first and second option.
Thats 100% correct.
Ones performance goes to the lowest level of mastered ability in high stress.
Has anyone ever checked out the exits at a Wong Mart? Most of them seem to have the same layout so if you know one, you have a good idea about the rest. If I recall the back wall doesn't have an exit? Side exits are garden center, automotive, and maybe through the meat section? In a fire I think it would be a friggin nightmare!
georgel
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Most don't realize that under stress, real stress, if you haven't ingrained it in muscle memory, your body will fail you. All that logical decision making you're planning on making will fail you too.
Dramatically demonstrated to me in full contact force on force training.
nature boy
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A year ago I was at Walmart checkouts with both my kids a 8 and 4 year old when some jackass had a ND in a changing stall. My first reaction was duck down grabbed both around the wast and run damn the adrenaline rush. And I was carrying
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This IS true. We do it here at least weekly. For me Daily. From a dining table, into and out of a car, back to and facing followed by left and right. We even have an ATM machine on the range. We do these things Not to become a master of all problems But to not be a stranger to any problem. What ifs are our friends. On the job training in a life threatening event is not a good thing.
This said, I have had people come here, try several things and leave and apparently not even remember doing them. You must realize you Can Not help every one. My goal personally here is to try to make available shooting situations that are not available on other ranges. My new goal is to be better at learning when I am wasting my time that could be spent with somebody who really wants to do better.
I do know this after 60+ years of shooting, Nothing can be gained in the ability to shoot better by typing on a key board. Go Somewhere and shoot. Try to shoot where you can learn Something. Everything in shooting does not have to be "training", plinking is and can be fun. There is a place for that. But Not under the title of this thread.
The great Ray Chapman would go to a shooter on the line and tell them how they could improve what they were doing. He would then walk off a ways and watch hat shooter. If they didn't try what he said...he never spoke to them again. While we are trying to help as many people as we can, we must Not waste valuable time on people who are hard headed or worse. There are other folks who Want to do better. Spend time with them.
Many of these fire exits have a 10-30 second time delay before they open.
Okay ... there is really no correct answer to this ... it really was a question to make you think. Truthfully at least have a general thought of what you’ll do but remember the old have a back-up plan because the first likely won’t work line because you can’t factor in all variables ... but do plan on at least doing something and not just stand there.
Each situation will have different factors and variables. Basically the idea is to start thinking before anything happens about situational awareness. Again we are creatures of habit most of the time and go to a handful of places for our needs and wants ... the same grocery store or drug store ... the same restaurants ... the same stores. That can be a good thing if you think about and remember more than just what aisle the beer is on in Food Lion ... kinda take a mental snapshot of the general layout. Check out where the doors are that lead to the back stock area where the loading dock which will also have a push bar fire exit ... by fire code no key needed to exit. If anything happens from a robbery to fire to flash gang grabbery ... not just active shooter ... knowing that gives you a secondary way out that turns primary. Think about it for any place you regularly go ... kinda like JB mentioned above in his mission prep guide.
On a secondary note people may become less aware in environments where we go often. In general people’s confidence is more appeased and situational awareness drops in environments they are familiar with ... “comfort zones”.
I really started the thread to see what others would do that I haven’t thought of but also to just make people think period. Today people are thinking less and relying on other people or things more ... exercise and challenge your brain as well as your family’s on something like this or other self preservation scenarios.
Each situation will have different factors and variables. Basically the idea is to start thinking before anything happens about situational awareness. Again we are creatures of habit most of the time and go to a handful of places for our needs and wants ... the same grocery store or drug store ... the same restaurants ... the same stores. That can be a good thing if you think about and remember more than just what aisle the beer is on in Food Lion ... kinda take a mental snapshot of the general layout. Check out where the doors are that lead to the back stock area where the loading dock which will also have a push bar fire exit ... by fire code no key needed to exit. If anything happens from a robbery to fire to flash gang grabbery ... not just active shooter ... knowing that gives you a secondary way out that turns primary. Think about it for any place you regularly go ... kinda like JB mentioned above in his mission prep guide.
On a secondary note people may become less aware in environments where we go often. In general people’s confidence is more appeased and situational awareness drops in environments they are familiar with ... “comfort zones”.
I really started the thread to see what others would do that I haven’t thought of but also to just make people think period. Today people are thinking less and relying on other people or things more ... exercise and challenge your brain as well as your family’s on something like this or other self preservation scenarios.
Closest I have ever come to an active shooter situation was when I was 19 or so. A friends moms boyfriend, who was probably undiagnosed with PTSD, came out of the kitchen one day with a K-frame and stated he was gonna shoot all 3 of us. My other 2 buddies hauled serious ass! I didn't know what to do, so I calmly but quickly got up and headed straight to the door. The whole time praying he didn't shoot me in the back.
I hope that if I were to be put in this WalMart kind of situation, I hope and pray that I could keep my head and wits about me and be able to get my wife and son to an exit, or at least tucked away somewhere safer. I want to watch my son grow up, but if I have to sacrifice myself for them, then so be it.
I hope that if I were to be put in this WalMart kind of situation, I hope and pray that I could keep my head and wits about me and be able to get my wife and son to an exit, or at least tucked away somewhere safer. I want to watch my son grow up, but if I have to sacrifice myself for them, then so be it.
I dunno. My natural inclination is to run toward the sound of gunfire. I was a grunt, I was a paratrooper & I don't have a 'run' switch. I'm no 'super shooter' or any kind of badass pistolero, but I think well on my feet/under pressure & am not inclined to allow some degenerate dickhead get away with their shenanigans.
Ideally, I'd be able to get my wife & daughter to safety, then make someone regret their poor victim selection process, but guess I won't really know till it goes down (& I'd just as soon it didn't).
Ideally, I'd be able to get my wife & daughter to safety, then make someone regret their poor victim selection process, but guess I won't really know till it goes down (& I'd just as soon it didn't).
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Alot of this is the concept of mental mind mapping and rehearsal and increased situational awareness, you can do this stuff anywhere at anytime.
When I trained new Paramedics this was one of the things I stressed with them and made them do all the time, one thing that I would do regularly would be driving down the street coming back from a call or other time we weren't on a call, I would kick the floorwell of the truck or slam the dashboard to make a loud noise and say "We just got T Boned by a car, I'm unconscious, Where are we?" "What's your next steps?" Same things if we were on the scene of a call, I would randomly ask them " What is the address where we are?" "When we got off the elevator, how many doors down is the apartment and what side of the hallway?"
You can do the same thing for whatever circumstance you want to play out, "If something bad happens right now, where am I and where am I going?" Break it down into the minute steps, step by step, not broad concepts.
Try this one, you are asleep in bed and hear your front door being kicked open, step by step think about every step you are going to take to identify and address the threat.
Interestingly enough there is some significant science to support that people who do this often respond how they have played it out in your mind, because your brain doesn't really differentiate from a real event and one you have just processed in your brain. It's kinda like a mental fire drill. You don't have to set your house on fire to practice what to do.
This is very helpful, thanks. I like to know how you guys think about this sort of stuff. I'm going to get my brain to do these thinking exercises for various scenarios.
"Mental fire drill"....nice! lol.
No, they’re not the same. Typically there’s walk through and roll up dock doors on the rear right and left. It’s also a small warehouse with 12’ racking filled with pallets of product. If you can’t run, you can climb and hide.
We would be running away from the shots as fast as possible and moving targets are difficult to hit. The goal is to live. I am not pulling a gun out with the Po Po looking to snipe someone. Nope I’m no fool.
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This. Most anyone can shoot if they stand still and fire at a close by target. Try moving, shooting multiple targets, shoot from a sitting position, shoot from concealment, try different things. If you stand still and can put 10 rounds consistently in the center of the target, you're not learning anything.
@Millie
To your question on how to start the process of deciding in such situations.
Look up this term - OODA Loop
You will find military business references to that process.
Learn it and apply it to one current aspect of human to human interaction you want to win.
Once you understand the process, apply OODA Loop to this topics situations.
To your question on how to start the process of deciding in such situations.
Look up this term - OODA Loop
You will find military business references to that process.
Learn it and apply it to one current aspect of human to human interaction you want to win.
Once you understand the process, apply OODA Loop to this topics situations.
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The key is to use it in life in interactions you want to win.
I use the four elements everyday in most human interactions.
I wish all drivers with use the OODA Loop thinking instead of doing everything else many do from talking and texting to drinking coffee in one hand and eating with the other while driving with their knee. Hell, first day of Drivers Ed should teach it!
ES44AC
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The only way I would engage if I walked up on a great shot. No way I'm pursuing a guy with a rifle with my G19.
If you were in the area and it started right in front of you then you've got to act so your family can get away is the other scenario.
If you were in the area and it started right in front of you then you've got to act so your family can get away is the other scenario.
georgel
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Hmm... How not to write a book answering this...
There are multiple facets to being prepared, mental conditioning being one of them and the most important. The deer in headlights/peeing yourself response is your brain going through your Rolodex of What Do I Do? cards and coming up empty. Sorry, no instuctions for your next move, so you stand there, yet you recognize there is danger. Like calling 911 in an extreme situation and getting put on hold.
The key is to make a card for that situation. It can be as simple as going through mental "What If's" throughout your day. You're standing in line at the convenience store behind some dude. What if he pulls a gun and starts to rob the place? (He doesn't have to be a squirrelly looking dude for the exercise, just anyone.) What will you do? Go through the mental exercise in detail. Try different solutions and determine what would have been best in that situation. Hit him over the head with the bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 in your hand? Nope, too small. Pull your concealed carry? Wait, didn't he come in with someone? Figure out what would have been the best real solution and you just added a tentative card to your Rolodex. And you can update the card next time. Do this every day, randomly all day. I like the idea of the random alarm Billy mentioned. When the alarm goes off, assess your situation. Where would I run if I had to exit. Where could hide if I had to. What could I improvse as a weapon if I had too. What if the power went out? Do I have a light? (Always have a light. ;0)) Every place you frequent, you should mentally note where the potential exits and resources are, including bullet resistance things to hide behind. This adds cards to the Rolodex. It becomes second nature after you do it a while. I often think of the old Pink Panther movies and that servant that would attack him out of nowhere.A Always be thinking, if it suddenly went bad, what would I do? Work it out in detail. You'll often find your first impluse may not have been the best choice after working through other options. Add and update those cards.
This is only one small part of the picture. More to come in this or another thread. Hope it helps. ;0)
ETA - I think it would be fun to have an exercise partner that would randomly text you a situation and you had to think it through. Like you're at the grocery and you get a text that says, This is an exercise... Active Shooter!
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Chuckman
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@Millie , there's been a ton of research on this, it works.
@NCMedic , the two professions that do this 'better' are pilots and out-of-hospital medical providers (EMS and military). Remember old-school ACLS? I could still run a code to 1990 standards because you had to run a code totally in your head before you did megacode in front of the panel of physicians and run their gauntlet.
@NCMedic , the two professions that do this 'better' are pilots and out-of-hospital medical providers (EMS and military). Remember old-school ACLS? I could still run a code to 1990 standards because you had to run a code totally in your head before you did megacode in front of the panel of physicians and run their gauntlet.
If a 100% dead nuts take out chance I'd be moving forward, else I'd be practicing Nike-do ( the martial art known as run like hell ) , cover or diversion - knocking shit over, commotion, twerk a sprinkler head, find the boating section and grab an airhorn, etc. Carb cleaner and a gas match, starting fluid, etc. Anything but freeze and pee. Most all the Walmarts have a Automotive section near Sporting Goods which have a customer entrance/exit and a LOT OF TIRES ( you know, those things some ranges use for berms ?) , some have mentioned Garden Centers but the exits can often be locked- although the paver and bagged stone aisles look like attractive cover nontheless. Many stores have food ops near the front, vault their counters and duck behind a fridge ( not the fryer 
) Back in the soda/water/ beer aisles squirm into the racks. I dont know if you can climb to the top of the frozen food cases with any grace, but I'd sure try.
Options depend on where you are at the moment and what you can visualize.
) Back in the soda/water/ beer aisles squirm into the racks. I dont know if you can climb to the top of the frozen food cases with any grace, but I'd sure try. Options depend on where you are at the moment and what you can visualize.
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Yup....only thing worse than that was static cardiology. Or having to do the Parkland formula in your brain.
It's a fascinating subject to me as well as the idea of System 1 vs System 2 thinking (Thinking: Fast and Slow should be a mandatory read in Paramedic school).