Ruger Roulette

Folks, I've been keepin' a secret. I'm gonna tell it here, although it's embarrassing as hell!

A couple of weeks ago, I invited a friend to go shooting with me. I took a couple of 9mm pistols, as well as the Marlin 94 in 38-40 and the Ruger Redhawk 45 Colt that I bought from a friend last year. As we were finishing up, my friend asked to shoot the Ruger. When he was done, he said he had no idea where the bullets went, and then he couldn't open the cylinder. I got it open, ejected the 6 empties and saw that the cylinder would no longer close. All 6 of the brass casings were bulged on the forward end. I looked at the rims, and saw that they were 38-40 rounds!

I didn't say anything to my friend, just packed up and said goodbye. Thinking about a 38-40 round in a 45 Colt chamber, unsupported on the forward half, I wondered how he got through all 6 rounds without a Ka-Boom!? (He really played Roulette, to my way of thankin'.) Upon further inspection of the damage, it appeared that the cylinder was tilted forward, that it no longer spun on an axis parallel to the axis of the barrel. I was afraid the crane was bent, frame wallowed out, pistol ruined!

So, I went on the Ruger website, and sent them a message. I explained exactly what happened, and what was the result. They responded the next day, saying that they wanted to take a look at it, and later I got a phone call with the RMA number. They let me purchase a UPS label at Ruger's rate, which was $30. They did not mention anything about paying for the repair.

Today, the pistol was returned, at Ruger's expense. It's like new again! The note on the packing slip says that they did the following:
cleaned under ejector
adjusted barrel gap, end shake, timing
replaced pawl, centerpin, ejector spring and retainer

That's it! No bent crane, no ruined frame! Some adjustments and 4 small parts made it like new again!

What a happy ending...
My friend dodged 6 bullets; each one could have blown up the revolver.
And Humpty got put back together again!

I suppose the moral of the story is, be careful and don't expect yer friends to read the ammo box.
Also, pick yer chootin' friends carefully.
Also, Rugers are incredibly tough!
Also, Ruger Customer Service ain't too shabby.

Nice ending’

Those red Hawk’s are built like darn tanks

@Combat Diver, I was wondering what you thought about this...

...

@MacEntyre , I'd run 6 more 38-40 rounds through it just to make sure that they fixed everything.

@MacEntyre
Notwithstanding your story, you’re still welcome back here anytime.

Just bring your own guns and ammo.

@Jeppo, tha's what I'm gonna tell my friend. He never brings his own guns and ammo. I will wait for him to invite me, an' I'll choot his stuff!

I kinda think he mighta noticed that the rounds weren't a great fit, if'n it was his own revolver.

And, before somebody clever jumps in and accuses me of being the “other party” in Mac’s story, I’d like to formally announce that @MacEntyre and I are NOT friends!

I only hang out with @Jeppo for his wife's cookies...

Jeppo said:

And, before somebody clever jumps in and accuses me of being the “other party” in Mac’s story, I’d like to formally announce that @MacEntyre and I are NOT friends!

Click to expand...

Not now anyway.

Ruger stuff is crazyily overbuilt. I was under a shooting shed with a man shooting a Super Blackhawk. We all noticed it was cracking like a damn rifle. After he shot the 5th round the cylinder wouldn't turn. The cylinder had an almost invisible crack in the locking notches. I asked him what charge he was shooting he replied 13 grains of Unique.
Wellll, it turned out he was throwing 23 grains of Unique. Ruger fixed it at No charge.

BatteryOaksBilly said:

23 grains of Unique..

Click to expand...

Ouch.

MacEntyre said:

@Combat Diver, I was wondering what you thought about this...

Click to expand...

First lets look at the two cartridges
.38 WCF aka .38-40


.45 Colt


Remember Hollyweird uses a 3-1 blank that will chamber in 3 chambers for movies. Those chamberings are the two above and the .44 WCF or .44-40. So inverently it is possible to have the smaller diameter fire in a larger chambering and have the projo exit the bore. In this case the .400" bullet went tumbling down the .454 bore. There would have been lots of gas blow back along the sides of the case as it fire formed to the larger chamber. Since both cartridges operate near the same pressures (assuming original .45 specs) cylinder won't blow up but as seen did wreck some parts. At least it wasn't the dangerous reverse of firing a larger projo into a smaller bore ie .300 BKO in a .223 Rem chamber. Glad no one was hurt.

CD

Looks like 38-40 is that 3-1 cartridge that will chamber in the other two...

My old Pard Billy Rivers handed me a loaded S&W 1917 that had been deepened to 45 Colt here one day. I shot all 6 at a steel plate about 20 yards away. It was a half size torso and all 6 hit. The cases didn't want to eject and I had to "bump" them out. Out fell 6 split 44 Special cases. So while you wouldn't want to enter a target match with this combo, you wouldn't want to stand in front of it at 20 yards either.

I have two Marlin 94 rifles for Cowboy shooting, one a 45 Colt and one a 44 Magnum. Some friends came over several years ago to deer hunt with me and also to shoot a match at the range. One of the people was shooting the 45 Colt while I shot the 44 Mag. I noticed, when I processed the spent brass for reloading, that quite a few of the 44 Mag cases were expanded more than normal and decided that the person using the 45 Colt had grabbed some 44 Mag ammo even though they were clearly marked and in different locations. I never made that mistake again and now take nothing but 357 rifles and revolvers if I have a guest shooting with me.

I try to be extremely selective as to who I am standing near on the firing line. Most times I shoot by myself or with trusted friends.

I'm trying to figure out exactly how the damage occurred... maybe @John Travis and @Combat Diver can give me some insights.

What exactly happened that damaged the pawl, centerpin, ejector spring and retainer?
Those things are all involved in holding the cylinder still when the bullet goes off.
Where do you think the bullet first touched metal?
Was it the bullet impacting the cylinder, or the blast, which caused the damage?

MacEntyre said:

Where do you think the bullet first touched metal?

Click to expand...

Had to be the chamber throat.

MacEntyre said:

Was it the bullet impacting the cylinder, or the blast, which caused the damage?

Click to expand...

I can't see how the blast could've done it since peak pressure would've been below normal levels. Back pressure getting past the case? I dunno. I doubt it. The case would've expanded pretty quickly.

MacEntyre said:

I'm trying to figure out exactly how the damage occurred

Click to expand...

Worms.

Took this Ruger out to the range this arvo... small adjustments to the scope, and she was hitting bullseyes. Finally, set up for one shot at 40 yards offhand, and hit right beside the two inch bullseye! This Ruger will go hunting in November.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

MacEntyre said:

Took this Ruger out to the range this arvo... small adjustments to the scope, and she was hitting bullseyes. Finally, set up for one shot at 40 yards offhand, and hit right beside the two inch bullseye! This Ruger will go hunting in November.

Click to expand...

Not only that. I can confirm his check didn’t bounce.

This is the way it was set up before it went back to Ruger.
Now the back of the scope is even with the end of the scope rail.

Could you tell why the cylinder wouldn't close?

I guess I'm surprised it damaged the pistol at all. Looks like the 38-40 bullet would just rattle down the barrel with very little pressure behind it.

That's what a friend of mine thinks... but to tilt the cylinder like it did, the bullet's first bounce must have been right at the front end of the chamber. Since the bullet was suspended in the center of the cylinder when the primer went off, the only thing that makes sense is that the pressure that expanded the brass and propelled the bullet was not uniform at all. The bullet went away from the centerline immediately, and struck the end of the cylinder right away. From there, it rattled down the barrel and fell short of the target.

Afterwards, the cylinder was hitting the barrel, preventing it from closing again, which I suppose means the impact was at the bottom of the chamber, as if gravity had something to do with it. Of course, the only thing gravity could have done was to tilt the round down slightly, before it was fired. When you chamber a 38-40 round, it does appear that's what happens, until you close the cylinder. Closed, the round is tightly chambered, and appears to be centered in the chamber.

This is what I was hoping @John Travis or @Combat Diver would explain... I've never considered what happens when a bullet fires with the entyre front end unsupported.

It's called Fire Forming

How Not to Do Fire Forming...

Billy, you're right, that's what happened to the brass... nothing else could have happened to it. But that didn't cause any damage.

With the cartridge being undersized, would bolt thrust be a contributing factor to the damage?

Now I'll tell one on myself.

A few years back, I decided to spend a morning at PHA with a few single actions. For the trip, I had a .41 Magnum Blackhawk...a .45 New Vaquero...and a .44 Special Cimarron Model P. As is my habit for casual shooting, the .41 ammo was downloaded ( 8 grains of Unique) and...also my habit...all ammunition was packed in 100 round MTM boxes, lined up behind their respective revolvers.

All was going according to plan on the falling plate machine until an acquaintance arrived and started talking and I lost focus on what I was doing, and loaded 5 rounds of .41 Magnum into the Cimarron...which I didn't discover until I finished the string and ejected the empties.

The brass was expanded forward of the web to fit the .44 caliber chambers. None had split. All five fired and recoil/report felt/sounded normal enough that I didn't get an indication that anything was off...and all five rounds hit the plates from the 20-yard line...and all five plates were soundly smacked down. The Cimarron was none the worse for the wear, and I finished the box of .44 Special without incident.

In retrospect, I wish I'd held onto the brass, but instead I tossed it into the can.

Yep. It can happen to anybody. I'm just happy that I didn't have full throttle .41 ammunition that day.

cold1 said:

With the cartridge being undersized, would bolt thrust be a contributing factor to the damage?

Click to expand...

The back half of 38-40 brass is identical to 45 Colt brass.

John Travis said:

Now I'll tell one on myself.

Click to expand...

I did something similar with two rifles... one in 35 Remington, t'other in 41 magnum.
Talking with a friend, had a brain fart and inserted 41 magnum into the loading gate of the 35 Remington rifle.
Fortunately, the 41 magnum was a lead bullet. It fired just fine, but felt abnormal.
The bullet resized itself on the fly from 0.410 to 0.358.
Hit the ground just shy of the gong at 200 yards.
No ka-boom. I decided to call that damn lucky!