This is how confiscations happen without even the least bit of protest

dkmatthews

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What I'm saying is that if the all-powerful government agency says the people involved were criminals of the worst kind (think of the children!), then the government agency will be able to frame every raid as necessary for the safety and security of society. I'm not saying that there isn't the possibility of a legitimate reason for this particular raid, but doing it at 0400 with flashbang grenades certainly makes it look like they had to do this or the "bad guys" might have committed unspeakable atrocities - which stops most people from giving the "bad guys" the benefit of the doubt.

https://www.denverpost.com/2019/11/07/atf-raid-denver/

Federal agents executed multiple search and arrest warrants across the Denver area early Thursday morning in an operation that is still underway.

April Langwell, a spokesperson for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said because the operation is ongoing she couldn’t provide details. A news conference is schedule for 2 p.m. Thursday. on the 3200 block of Navajo Street, near a Hells Angels clubhouse.

Denver police assisted in the operation, Sonny Jackson, police spokesman, said.

Highland residents who posted on neighborhood app Nextdoor said they heard gunshots or flashbangs, non-lethal explosive devices, near 32nd Avenue and Osage Street at about 4 a.m.

This is the Hells angels HQ. neighbors heard huge blasts at 4am, followed by tactical teams with large weapons entering the building. “It was apocalyptic” said Greg Cohen, who lives across the street. “I thought there an explosion”

Greg Cohen, who lives in the apartment building across the street, said he was woken up just after 4 a.m. to what sounded like explosions in the street below.

“It was apocalyptic,” Cohen said, describing the flash bangs. He crawled onto his balcony, watching as a host of federal agents toting large weapons crowded outside the Hells Angels clubhouse. ATF agents yelled into a loudspeaker for residents to stay inside their homes.

Neighbors described the motorcycle members as decent guys who never caused trouble.

“They just go about their business and nobody bothers them,” Cohen said.
 
you think they would have learned something after the first raid (both parties) but evidently not.

Just in case everyone hasn't gotten the memo: the police and feds own the cities.

Now compare that to the Bundy ranch.....
 
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When you consider that the HA and other 1% biker gangs are often involved in exploitation, prostitution, and human trafficking, its quite possible that they actually were "thinking of the children" in this case.

I'm generally opposed to no-knocks and middle of the night door kicking raids, unless there's a credible threat to life and limb, such as a hostage situation, kidnapping, etc. In cases like this, I'll give the LE the benefit of the doubt until the rest of the story comes out.

If it turns out the raid was over a little pot found in some dudes saddlebags, then I'll call it the heavy handed BS that it is.
 
When you consider that the HA and other 1% biker gangs are often involved in exploitation, prostitution, and human trafficking, its quite possible that they actually were "thinking of the children" in this case.

I'm generally opposed to no-knocks and middle of the night door kicking raids, unless there's a credible threat to life and limb, such as a hostage situation, kidnapping, etc. In cases like this, I'll give the LE the benefit of the doubt until the rest of the story comes out.

If it turns out the raid was over a little pot found in some dudes saddlebags, then I'll call it the heavy handed BS that it is.

I don't have any statistics to dispute your point and that wasn't really the point of my commentary. My point was that if confiscations are going to occur, they will be staged just like this and the government will make it look as though the target(s) of the raid were the lowest scum of the earth. On top of that, @Catfish absolutely nailed it that they couldn't resist in this situation because they were overwhelmingly outnumbered and had no advance knowledge to prepare a defense or an exfil. We can talk about how the government won't ever enact confiscations and talk about how the police and the military won't turn against the citizens, but the boots on the ground aren't going to know during the pre-brief or at 0400 during the raid commencement whether the target(s) were bad or not.
 
This is a hard one....which group do think would keep a neighborhood safer, HA or LEO.

Rhetorical question, right?.

When you consider that the HA and other 1% biker gangs are often involved in exploitation, prostitution, and human trafficking, its quite possible that they actually were "thinking of the children" in this case.

Y'know, I keep hearing that, but have yet to see/hear of any actual arrests & convictions. These guys get hemmed up for drugs or guns from time to time, but most of what they get in trouble for is fighting &/or killing each other, but they rarely if ever mess with regular folks.

'N while some 1%ers are crooks, most are not dumb enough to keep evidence of such at their clubhouse, which they all know is the first thing that will be raided/searched when the cops get a boner for them. Heavy handed BS, IMO.
 
No...LEO's are government sponsored and supported gangs. Last year cops killed how many people vs how many the HA killed.

Exactly. We're on the same page with this one. Local MC opened a clubhouse in a 'disadvantaged' section of Fayetteville. Neighbors loved 'em & crime absolutely disappeared within a 6 block radius.
 
Exactly. We're on the same page with this one. Local MC opened a clubhouse in a 'disadvantaged' section of Fayetteville. Neighbors loved 'em & crime absolutely disappeared within a 6 block radius.
Mob works that way too, but you have to pay 'em.
 
Mob works that way too, but you have to pay 'em.

Yea, it's not like they take money out of every paycheck, out of every tank of gas, of everything we buy anywhere, on any property we own, or our phones, or our cable TV, or out power bill, or.... well never mind.
 
Yea, it's not like they take money out of every paycheck, out of every tank of gas, of everything we buy anywhere, on any property we own, or our phones, or our cable TV, or out power bill, or.... well never mind.
That's the mob too, just the legal kind.
 
This is all for show. Most likely no one was there, it's the clubhouse. They hit the Outlaws clubhouse in Newton. Instead of going through the door they blew a hole in the side of the building, pushed it in with a vehicle, and entered the empty building that way. It's a cat and mouse game the feds play with these guys. I'm sure the investigation was legit, may be some charges. But any chance to over do the entry and warrant service seems to bring them great pleasure.
 
That's the mob too, just the legal kind.
Like that makes it so much better. Every nightmare regime in history operated legally.

My point was that if confiscations are going to occur, they will be staged just like this and the government will make it look as though the target(s) of the raid were the lowest scum of the earth. On top of that, @Catfish absolutely nailed it that they couldn't resist in this situation because they were overwhelmingly outnumbered and had no advance knowledge to prepare a defense or an exfil.
The gun grabbers like to fantasize about this. What they don’t anticipate is that it runs a real risk of escalation, or rather retaliation, in ways they don’t anticipate. It also won’t necessarily be against those that carried out the raid but against those who are still organs of the regime.
 
HCPD hit the HA compound here a few years ago. Went in Heavy, pushed down gates, knocked in doors...found exactly Nothing. HA Prez was quoted in the news..All they had to do was knock on the door instead of tearing up so much, they'd found the same thing..nothing.
Sonny Barger said in his book " Hell, they spent 13 Million dollars and didn't get a single conviction. If they woulda given me the 13 Mil I woulda give em Somebody".
 
I’ve only had one interaction with hells angels, but they gave me no grief.

I was swapping out the electric meter at their HQ & they just wanted some time to put their security dog up, shut down electric stuff inside, I changed meter and left.

I think the main reason they get bad rap is lying fake news media.

I have come to conclusion that the media is bigger threat to America than any biker gang.
 
HCPD hit the HA compound here a few years ago. Went in Heavy, pushed down gates, knocked in doors...found exactly Nothing. HA Prez was quoted in the news..All they had to do was knock on the door instead of tearing up so much, they'd found the same thing..nothing.
Sonny Barger said in his book " Hell, they spent 13 Million dollars and didn't get a single conviction. If they woulda given me the 13 Mil I woulda give em Somebody".
I was told by someone "in the know" that there wasn't even as much as a beer bottle in there. The clubhouse is just down the road from my office and you never hear of anything going on in that neighborhood.
 
Exactly. We're on the same page with this one. Local MC opened a clubhouse in a 'disadvantaged' section of Fayetteville. Neighbors loved 'em & crime absolutely disappeared within a 6 block radius.

Except crime didn't disappear at the HA address. I guess the HA's are just a bunch of Boy Scouts that sponsor toy runs and help little old ladies cross the street? Right? That's why probies commit crimes to get in the club, just so they can help with the kids. They should be called the Robin Hoods instead of the Hells Angels.
 
Lets be honest here... we as a nation, everywhere and everyday, depend on gangs of armed men who dress alike for protection.


Not trying to say they are equivalent but there are some parallels worth talking about.
 
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This is all for show. Most likely no one was there, it's the clubhouse. They hit the Outlaws clubhouse in Newton. Instead of going through the door they blew a hole in the side of the building, pushed it in with a vehicle, and entered the empty building that way. It's a cat and mouse game the feds play with these guys. I'm sure the investigation was legit, may be some charges. But any chance to over do the entry and warrant service seems to bring them great pleasure.

Yep until someone shoots back like in Dayton Ohio yesterday
 
Like that makes it so much better. Every nightmare regime in history operated legally.


The gun grabbers like to fantasize about this. What they don’t anticipate is that it runs a real risk of escalation, or rather retaliation, in ways they don’t anticipate. It also won’t necessarily be against those that carried out the raid but against those who are still organs of the regime.

Just look at the troubles in Ireland for the last half century. With over 300million guns in this country they are foolish to believe that gun confiscation can be a reality. Japan in WWII stated that behind every blade of grass was a rifle. Let that sink in.

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Except crime didn't disappear at the HA address. I guess the HA's are just a bunch of Boy Scouts that sponsor toy runs and help little old ladies cross the street? Right? That's why probies commit crimes to get in the club, just so they can help with the kids. They should be called the Robin Hoods instead of the Hells Angels.

It's an unusual dynamic to say the least. They don't crap where they eat. And they don't put up with anyone who does around their place either. I had a MC clubhouse catacorner to me for years, and before that they were across from my uncle's house. Outside of coming and going at odd hours on loud bike, there were no real issues. That stuff all happened elsewhere. Like the strip club where they sell drugs and launder their money. lol Not saying they are boy scouts but they are not terrible neighbors either.
 
Except crime didn't disappear at the HA address. I guess the HA's are just a bunch of Boy Scouts that sponsor toy runs and help little old ladies cross the street? Right? That's why probies commit crimes to get in the club, just so they can help with the kids. They should be called the Robin Hoods instead of the Hells Angels.

Speaking from experience, I presume, because you apparently didn't bother to read the responses of those who actually know some of these guys. Who'd you prospect for? Or, are you just banging away at the dirty biker stereotype?

What's funny is that the mostly unaffiliated scooter trash I grew up with make the current crop of 'bikers' look like Boy Scouts.
 
Speaking from experience, I presume, because you apparently didn't bother to read the responses of those who actually know some of these guys. Who'd you prospect for? Or, are you just banging away at the dirty biker stereotype?

What's funny is that the mostly unaffiliated scooter trash I grew up with make the current crop of 'bikers' look like Boy Scouts.

So, you are saying that 1% MC clubs are not in any way criminal organizations? OK.
 
It's an unusual dynamic to say the least. They don't crap where they eat. And they don't put up with anyone who does around their place either. I had a MC clubhouse catacorner to me for years, and before that they were across from my uncle's house. Outside of coming and going at odd hours on loud bike, there were no real issues. That stuff all happened elsewhere. Like the strip club where they sell drugs and launder their money. lol Not saying they are boy scouts but they are not terrible neighbors either.
Agreed. We renovated a house next to the Outlaws clubhouse just outside of Atlanta many years ago. Everywhere else we worked around the South side of town materials and tools got stolen regularly. Not there, the thieves gave those boys a wide berth.
 
Agreed. We renovated a house next to the Outlaws clubhouse just outside of Atlanta many years ago. Everywhere else we worked around the South side of town materials and tools got stolen regularly. Not there, the thieves gave those boys a wide berth.
That wasn't because they admired and respected them for being good citizens. That was out of fear of them.
 
That wasn't because they admired and respected them for being good citizens. That was out of fear of them.
Well, yeah. I figured that was pretty obvious. It's like the old truism that the mafia Don's neighborhood is the safest.
 
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