2700 round update on my PSA AR (now with broken parts!)

[Jayne]

Just took my 2nd carbine course with the PSA AR. This is the $419 freedom build kit, and according to the spreadsheet I've got 2700 rounds through it now, with 95% of that steel case wolf/tula. Hopefully without being too long winded, here is what I've learned:

Accuracy -

1:7 twist, it's a solid 2 MOA rifle with wolf/tula 55gr, a 4 MOA rifle with almost any 62gr, 1.5 MOA with my 55gr hand loads and 2 MOA with my 77gr hand loads. I would think the 1:7 would like the heavies, but it clearly likes the 55gr so that's all I'll run now. My long range skills have degraded, but I'm still a MOA shooter with my bolt gun as reference.

Reliability -

Runs fine when clean and lubed, craps out quickly around the 300-350 round range. After that magic 300-ish round count of wolf/tula, it starts short stroking (I'm guessing). Ejects a round, won't pick up another. Cycle by hand and it fires 1 time, ejects, closes on empty. Happens with any mag, it just becomes a bolt gun at that point. Actually ran a whole mag that way. Hit it with a little CLP and it runs again. Around the 500-550 round mark and get it really hot (60 round strings!) it get cranky again and starts mis-feeding, double feeding, etc. Shot of CLP puts it back in the game but still, it really needs a bath at this point. No idea how this compares to any other AR.

Sights & Optics -

The Vortex 1-8x has mostly been 'useless' in these two classes. With no shots over 75 yards, having all that magnification on tap hasn't been a bonus vs. the weight of it vs. a red dot. I don't mind though, this is a multi-purpose rifle so when I get to shoot at 300-500, it's going to be the same optic.

I broke the rear scope cap off, banging around during transition drills it must have got caught on something. Meh.

At the night shoot with the illumination down around the 5 mark, I found the red washing out. Hitting a target at 15-20 yards with the big light causes enough lumens to smack me in the face to wash out the red. The etched reticle is there there so no worries.

Haven't used the flip-up 45 degree offset sights yet except to zero them. Now that I've moved the light I might get a fixed 45 degree front instead of the flip-up. The flip is cheap and is already a little dinged up. They're no-name, but I thought they might not be what I wanted so I went cheap.


Lights -

I had the streamlight XL on there, subscribing to the "gimmie all the lumens!" school. It was awesome, but it was large, heavy and the only way I could get it mounted for me was not ambi friendly, so when I switched shoulders on a barricade (which we did a lot in both classes) it was awkward. I switched to a streamlight TLR-1 HL and it's way better. less light, but ambi and less bulky. With the low optic I can't run the light on top so this is a good compromise.


Sling -

With a bolt gun background, a 2 point setup seemed familiar to me and that's what I started with. However, I put QD points on the front and middle of the rail, behind the hand grip and replaced the stock with one on both sides in the rear. That way with the magpul sling I could run 1 or 2 point in various configs. I quickly switched to single point behind the grip and that's how I'll leave it most the time. If I had to hike around a lot, it's trivial to go back to 2 point in about 10 seconds. Totally recommend the MS4 sling.


Trigger & Controls-

Yep, it's got one, whatever came with the kit. It's smoothed out a bit, but I don't notice it at all in this short range fighting stuff. Haven't measured the pull after 2700 rounds, but I can't remember what it was when I started anyway.

Single sided safety, a bitch when transitioning. Probably should upgrade it at some point.

Added a capture pin set on there because I'm a baller' and that's how we do it.


Keymod forend -

Keymod lost I guess, but I still like it better than m-loc when it comes to getting things to mount. Because I've been changing the location of things on the rifle a lot as I learn I appreciate how easily things line up and how little fiddling you have to do with spinning backing plates.

Mags -

Gen 2 and Gen 3 PMAGs work right all the time (except when it goes into single shot as mentioned before). Aluminum GI from various brands don't always feed, or drop free, or seat. I won't use them in this rifle if at all possible unless I want problems. I've got one mag that feeds well but sticks and won't eject. Good for practicing problematic reloads.

Weight -

It's heavy. 8 lb 6 oz without a mag. I must have told everyone in both classes how @NKD has this ultimate lightweight rifle and how this one is not that.

So much for not long winded.

 

[ugafx4]

Thanks for the write up. I have a PSA AR build that short stroked the other day at the range. Probably because I ran it out of the box after sitting for two years. I took it down and cleaned it, hopefully will work better this time.

 

[Geezer]

Nice review, thanks. I haven't put as man rounds through my PSA ARs as you but I'm not at all surprised in your results. But, I have one that refuses to run steel case ammo. Go figure.

 

[JustKeepSwimming]

Love reading stuff like this from members. Thanks for posting.

 

[Jayne]

Action photo! Yes, we are shooting the rifles sideways to learn how they work when the optics and barrel are not aligned as when laying on your side.

 

[NKD]

Thanks for the detailed report!

Dirty chamber from steel case slows bolt and lube burns off maybe coupling to cause bolt to short stroke?

Wonder if you are running it wet enough? Just throwing it out there.

 

[Jayne]

Wonder if you are running it wet enough? Just throwing it out there.

Two days and 3 showers later and my left arm still has spots of oil/crud on it from where it was blowing out the side of the receiver.

 

[NKD]

Two days and 3 showers later and my left arm still has spots of oil/crud on it from where it was blowing out the side of the receiver.

Too much lube maybe?

Heh!

 

[Ikarus1]

alternating good brass ammo with the steel will help pull the crud out of the chamber. Sounds like you got a good one, esp with stainless.

I have all nitride barrels on my PSAs and they start getting sticky if I don't clean the barrel and bolts every 500 RDS. Easier to get there with D60 drums at the range now

 

[JBoyette]

You going to do any reviews of the training classes?

 

[Jayne]

You going to do any reviews of the training classes?

He's not a (paying) vendor on here. We told him he should do that to promote his business and if he does I'll post something up. If not, then I won't out of respect for those trainers that do support the forum.

 

[SPST]

Anybody else have a similar round count on a S&W M&P Sport II or a 6920 to compare?

 

[Climberman]

I was at this class too. Figured out what was causing my weapon malfunctions. I kept having my AR fail to go in to battery and there was pieces of mangled brass metal in the chamber every time. I talked to @NKD about it and told him I was alternating between IMI and Independence ammo. Low and behold, Independence ammo has a bad reputation for blown primers. So I cleaned my rifle last night and get what I found all down in the lower....yup, blown primers. I'm not buying independence again.
these things were all down in the trigger group.

 

[CZfool68]

I was at this class too. Figured out what was causing my weapon malfunctions. I kept having my AR fail to go in to battery and there was pieces of mangled brass metal in the chamber every time. I talked to @NKD about it and told him I was alternating between IMI and Independence ammo. Low and behold, Independence ammo has a bad reputation for blown primers. So I cleaned my rifle last night and get what I found all down in the lower....yup, blown primers. I'm not buying independence again.
these things were all down in the trigger group.

Ha! That is funny. Because I went shooting with NKD yesterday and I broke out a box of Independence .223 I had for him to shoot from my CZ 527. It wouldn't chamber the first round, so NKD pulled the mag and looky here. There was a 300 BLK mixed in there. Glad that was my only box of Independence.

Edit - BTW, I do not own a 300 BLK rifle nor have I ever bought 300 BLK ammo. No mix up on my end.

 

[Climberman]

Ha! That is funny. Because I went shooting with NKD yesterday and I broke out a box of Independence .223 I had for him to shoot from my CZ 527. It wouldn't chamber the first round, so NKD pulled the mag and looky here. There was a 300 BLK mixed in there. Glad that was my only box of Independence.

Edit - BTW, I do not own a 300 BLK rifle nor have I ever bought 300 BLK ammo. No mix up on my end.

I'm glad y'all didn't have a kaboom.

 

[RedneckFur]

I've got a few PSA AR's. I don't know the exact round counts of any of them, but likely varies from the low hundreds to the low thousands depending on the gun. My most shot AR is a PSA, and it doesn't get cleaned frequently either. A "beater gun" of sorts. 1:9 twist barrel, and shoots 55 gr Tula well. So far, the only issues I've had with mine is a broken gas ring. Gun still cycled and shot just fine with only two, but I replaced the set and kept on trucking.

 

[CZfool68]

I'm glad y'all didn't have a kaboom.

Yep. Luckily it wouldn't even chamber. That would have really sucked.

 

[B00ger]

Anybody else have a similar round count on a S&W M&P Sport II or a 6920 to compare?

I have a first generation MP15 Sport, the old slick slide 5R barreled version. I would estimate it has around 2.5-3k rounds through it. I have never really "abused" it, but have taken a few classes with it and shot my competitions with it. So far it has never had a rifle induced malfunction. The only time I can really remember it failing was due to using cheap ammo. Had one round with a reversed primer and another part of the case chipped off and was left in the chamber. Caused the next round to get jammed in. Mortared it and all was fine after that.

I generally field strip it after every outing and wipe down the bolt and run a snake through the barrel. So its never really been "run dry", so ymmv.

 

[Climberman]

It annoys me when you have a weapon malfunction and someone around you immediately says something along the lines of "That's why I bought a ____(insert any brand you want)." Like their brand will eliminate all problems. In fact, I think next time it happens, I'll give them my left over independence ammo.

 

[Ikarus1]

Yep. Luckily it wouldn't even chamber. That would have really sucked.

good thing is if it did Kaboom, you could always buy a spare Freedom kit, or 3 spare uppers and spend the same as a 6920 currently costs

 

[B00ger]

It annoys me when you have a weapon malfunction and someone around you immediately says something along the lines of "That's why I bought a ____(insert any brand you want)." Like their brand will eliminate all problems. In fact, I think next time it happens, I'll give them my left over independence ammo.

I totally agree with this. I've seen extremely high dollar gear crap out during competitions while a Taurus hums along. I've watched threads of people sending all sorts of "boutique" weapons back to the manufacturer because something wasn't right. Money doesn't remove the "mechanical" nature of firearms. In fact, with some I think it can have the opposite effect. When something is machined to such a high level of precision it >may< lose some of its reliability as its chances of getting out of tolerance are greater. Hence...the venerable AK. (which fail too at times...)

 

[CZfool68]

good thing is if it did Kaboom, you could always buy a spare Freedom kit, or 3 spare uppers and spend the same as a 6920 currently costs

Except it was in a CZ 527. With nice blues steel and walnut. Not some soulless AR.

There would have had to be a religious ceremony of some sort.

 

[NKD]

Ha! That is funny. Because I went shooting with NKD yesterday and I broke out a box of Independence .223 I had for him to shoot from my CZ 527. It wouldn't chamber the first round, so NKD pulled the mag and looky here. There was a 300 BLK mixed in there. Glad that was my only box of Independence.

Edit - BTW, I do not own a 300 BLK rifle nor have I ever bought 300 BLK ammo. No mix up on my end.

 

[JBoyette]

Yep. Luckily it wouldn't even chamber. That would have really sucked.

Yes it will a 300blkout will chamber in 5.56 and .223 rifles.

Seen it done more then 20 times. Seen 3 rifles after the round was shot too.

 

[NKD]

More than 20 times? Damn!

 

[CZfool68]

Yes it will a 300blkout will chamber in 5.56 and .223 rifles.

Seen it done more then 20 times. Seen 3 rifles after the round was shot too.

Well lucky for me it would chamber in my CZ.

 

[Jayne]

Yes it will a 300blkout will chamber in 5.56 and .223 rifles.

Seen it done more then 20 times. Seen 3 rifles after the round was shot too.

I assume they just grenade? Even a 125gr 30-cal bullet is not going to do well trying to go down that .22 cal barrel.

 

[JBoyette]

More than 20 times? Damn!

I have had over 900 students take a carbine class since 2008. In that time i have seen 20 + students chamber a 300blkout in a 5.56/.223 gun. Some witnesses are members here on this site .

Well lucky for me it would chamber in my CZ.

Agree, with a manual operated rifle you can feel the o-give engage the throat and stop, not true with a bolt catch and action spring.

I assume they just grenade? Even a 125gr 30-cal bullet is not going to do well trying to go down that .22 cal barrel.

Yes, its a mess and catastrophic to the firearm. I will did up some images.

 

[Jayne]

Another guy in the class was talking about cleaning his rifle and how much carbon fouling there was in the bolt, and I had to admit to @NKD that I had never actually taken a bolt apart. So... I pulled the (not yet cleaned) AR back out and pulled the bolt. Pretty easy really, the parts only seem to go one way and while I wouldn't want to do it in the field it was easy enough on the workbench. There appears to be lots of wear on some of the widgets in there, but what struck me as not right was this:



Which I now know is a gas ring. It looks like a piston ring to me and it's not sealing very well. I figured I would just put it back together and check online to see what it's supposed to look like, but when I tried to reassemble this was blocking my way:

 

[JBoyette]

Another guy in the class was talking about cleaning his rifle and how much carbon fouling there was in the bolt, and I had to admit to @NKD that I had never actually taken a bolt apart. So... I pulled the (not yet cleaned) AR back out and pulled the bolt. Pretty easy really, the parts only seem to go one way and while I wouldn't want to do it in the field it was easy enough on the workbench. There appears to be lots of wear on some of the widgets in there, but what struck me as not right was this:

View attachment 55277

Which I now know is a gas ring. It looks like a pistol ring to me and it's not sealing very well. I figured I would just put it back together and check online to see what it's supposed to look like, but when I tried to reassemble this was blocking my way:

View attachment 55278

Pretty sure that's not right.

And yea, no titanium firing pin. No wonder I miss all the time, my lock time is horrible with such a heavy pin!

Gas rings wear out around 5k. Since you are at half life just know the ammunition you have ran is hot as hell and not very effective in the burn rate dept .

I would love to see you go to a LC XM193 for the next 2500 on new rings and report back the level of wear on the gas rings.

 

[NKD]

I have had over 900 students take a carbine class since 2008. In that time i have seen 20 + students chamber a 300blkout in a 5.56/.223 gun. Some witnesses are members here on this site .

Don’t think we need witnesses.
I’ve witnessed it myself, as you can see here in this thread, lol.

 

[Jayne]

I would love to see you go to a LC XM193 for the next 2500 on new rings and report back the level of wear on the gas rings.

That sounds like expensive ammo, so probably not in the future of this rifle.

Ordered some rings, should be here Friday.

 

[NKD]

Gas rings wear out around 5k. Since you are at half life just know the ammunition you have ran is hot as hell and not very effective in the burn rate dept .

I would love to see you go to a LC XM193 for the next 2500 on new rings and report back the level of wear on the gas rings.

Are all gas rings made in the same place?

 

[11B CIB]

Yes it will a 300blkout will chamber in 5.56 and .223 rifles.

Seen it done more then 20 times. Seen 3 rifles after the round was shot too.

Yup; the bullet stretches out really really long, like a copper sausage. Then plugs the barrel

 

[JBoyette]

Are all gas rings made in the same place?

I do not know, what i do know is connecticut spring and stamping is the only supplier for mil-spec gas rings and other like items in the AR-SR rifles

 

[Djstorm100]

I was at this class too. Figured out what was causing my weapon malfunctions. I kept having my AR fail to go in to battery and there was pieces of mangled brass metal in the chamber every time. I talked to @NKD about it and told him I was alternating between IMI and Independence ammo. Low and behold, Independence ammo has a bad reputation for blown primers. So I cleaned my rifle last night and get what I found all down in the lower....yup, blown primers. I'm not buying independence again.
these things were all down in the trigger group.

Where do you guys shoot at? What class was this?

 

[jimmyjames8]

Supposed to be 3 gas rings approximately 120 degrees rotation apart at the gap. That's what Pat Sweeny sez anyway. Thanks for the right up on being at 2700 rnds. None of my PSA guns are at that round count. I clean bbl after every range session. Rem oil on the BCG and that's it.

 

[Ikarus1]

Supposed to be 3 gas rings approximately 120 degrees rotation apart at the gap. That's what Pat Sweeny sez anyway. Thanks for the right up on being at 2700 rnds. None of my PSA guns are at that round count. I clean bbl after every range session. Rem oil on the BCG and that's it.

I have nitride and NiB BCGs which are basically self lubing, so the only thing that gets lube on my PSAs bolts are the rings (one drop thru the vents when the bolt is compressed to where the rings are showing). You can run the outside as wet as you want, but just like an internal combustion engine, the rings are what seals and does the work. Dry rings break

 

[Jayne]

There we go, back in business. Putting the bolt back into the carrier was somewhat difficult with the new rings, I'm guessing they need to wear in a bit. Off to the range tomorrow to see if it works.

 

[Tarowah]

My PSA also ate the gas rings after about 2k rounds, I bought replacements and haven’t had any further issues.

My BCM has the one piece gas ring installed and it has held up since the rifle was new, I don’t know if the one piece is better or not but it seems to hold up extremely well.