308 reloading problems

KnotRight

KnotRight

Well-Known Member
Charter Member
Benefactor
Life Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2016
Messages
5,530
Location
Savannah, GA
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
This is the first time every really having problems with my reloads in 308. I was using Shooter’s World Match Rifle powder. Below is the load data from their website:

Bullet: 150 Speer BTSP O.A.L. 2.800”
Starting load: 44.0 grns Velocity 2,695
Max load: 48.7 grns Velocity 2,982 Max pressure 59,874

My load:
Bullet: 150 Hornady Interlock Sp O.A.L. 2.780”
Load: 41.6 grns Est. velocity 2,600 Est. pressure 50,700
Primer: Winchester Large Rifle
85% of max load


Out of maybe 35 rounds fired, 30 of them would not eject. Had to use a cleaning rod to push the spent case out. There was no resistance. The primer was backed out on every case that did not eject. I was using all different brand of cases. I had a friend shooting a 308 and he had the same problem. I have about 15 more rounds that I did not fire. I am going to pull them and check the loads. Also, after timbering the spent cases I am going to deprime the case (not resize) and see if a new primer fixes in with a little resistance.

I am also going to send this to Shooter’s World to get their comment.

Any suggestions???????
 
It is quite possibly a headspace issue, maybe caused by incorrect sizing. What kind of cases? How were they resized--neck only, full length? Otherwise, your charge may be too light. If the data says a starting load is 44 grains, why are you only using 41.6, and how do you figure that is 85% of max?
 
What are you shooting these in? Primers backing out is usually indicative of a light load, which would sort if make sense in a semi auto..e.g. bolt isnt cycling back far enough to eject.
Not familiar with that powder, but 44gr starting load, and your way under..try bumping load up. Work up some loads in half grain increments 43 on up to 45 or so. Once you get them to cycle you can fine tune new loads for accuracy.
Also, sort your brass if you can, military brass is heavier (thicker ) so you can usually use less powder (grain ir so) in those cases.. in fact, Id wonder if those ones are the ines that cycled..
 
What @Jabroni said. I had that problem with the cases getting stuck in the chamber after doing a full length resize of the case. Now I resize and TRIM each case to prevent that from happening.
 
Each case is trimmed. Resized with Hornady FL dies. I am using a Savage Bolt action. I was trying to keep the velocity to around 2,600 F/sec and that is the reason for the 85% of max load. I would think that an over charged loaded would cause the primer to backout. Not sure I understand how a lighter load would have enough back pressure to back out a primer. After they are finished tumbering I will measure how much they have backed out.

I pulled 20 unfired rounds and weighted each load.
41.0 1
41.1 4
41.2 9
41.3 5
41.4 5
41.4 1 AVERAGE 42.28 GRNS.
I was trying to use up some bullets so I did not trickle the loads.

None of the cases were stuck in the chamber. I could very easy push the case out with a cleaning rod.
 
Last edited:
Light charges sometimes do not generate enough pressure to force the case back against the bolt face. Excessive pressure will flatten primers.
 
Buy yourself a RCBS precision micrometer and check the headspace of your cases. You have either sized the brass and pushed the shoulder back too far or the reduced loads are pushing the shoulder on it's on. To continue shooting will cause a case separation and worst, a catastrophic failure. Don't fire anymore rounds until you figure out the problem, good luck.
 
I've never had a primer back out due to a to light a load in a gas gun, fail for the bolt to stay open on last round yea, and fail to strip a new round from not traveling far enough, but not blow primers !

Sounds to me like he's way over pressured, gas is slamming the bolt so hard and fast the barrel still has gas holding the brass in place, charging the bolt and tearing up brass that still squeezed in the chamber, and excessive gas is blowing out the primer after the bolt departs company with the case.

Or way under sized !
 
Last edited:
I have not changed the resizing die in months. Last time I shot this gun I was shooting under 1 MOA with the same bullets at 100 yards and hitting a 20" steel at 300, 400 and 500 yards but was shooting Varget powder. I need to check my records but I think they were loaded around 2650 ft/sec. I have not really had a problem with Shooter's world powder but never went below 90% of max. two77 you might be right about enough back pressure because the extrator was not grabbing the rim and the primers were not flatten.
 
KnotRight said:
I have not changed the resizing die in months.
Click to expand...


Doesn't mean a thing except "it should be..."

If you aren't checking you don't know. Do you have a case gauge and/or did you gauge the problem rounds?
 
Are you using a different shell holder in your press then before, I have Rcbs, Lee, and Hornady shell holders, and they will all give me different sizing on the same Die/ brass set up.

Buy a case guage, there about $20 bucks, I don't reload anything with out them.
 
KnotRight said:
This is the first time every really having problems with my reloads in 308. I was using Shooter’s World Match Rifle powder. Below is the load data from their website:

Bullet: 150 Speer BTSP O.A.L. 2.800”
Starting load: 44.0 grns Velocity 2,695
Max load: 48.7 grns Velocity 2,982 Max pressure 59,874

My load:
Bullet: 150 Hornady Interlock Sp O.A.L. 2.780”
Load: 41.6 grns Est. velocity 2,600 Est. pressure 50,700
Primer: Winchester Large Rifle
85% of max load


Out of maybe 35 rounds fired, 30 of them would not eject. Had to use a cleaning rod to push the spent case out. There was no resistance. The primer was backed out on every case that did not eject. I was using all different brand of cases. I had a friend shooting a 308 and he had the same problem. I have about 15 more rounds that I did not fire. I am going to pull them and check the loads. Also, after timbering the spent cases I am going to deprime the case (not resize) and see if a new primer fixes in with a little resistance.

I am also going to send this to Shooter’s World to get their comment.

Any suggestions???????
Click to expand...
KnotRight said:
I have not changed the resizing die in months. Last time I shot this gun I was shooting under 1 MOA with the same bullets at 100 yards and hitting a 20" steel at 300, 400 and 500 yards but was shooting Varget powder. I need to check my records but I think they were loaded around 2650 ft/sec. I have not really had a problem with Shooter's world powder but never went below 90% of max. two77 you might be right about enough back pressure because the extrator was not grabbing the rim and the primers were not flatten.
Click to expand...

edit- seen its for a bolt gun. Omitted stuff about the auto loading.

primers backing out could mean he has loose primer pocket. If crimped and swagged pockets then well something went wrong there.

What brass are you using? Once fired? multiple times fired? Whos brass is it? Win, Fed, LC? Post pic of said brass that had primers to back out. If you was exceeding max pressure they would be flat. So I am guess either the primer pockets are loose or they werent seated properly
 
Last edited:
I am using a Wilson gauge. Some of the cases are right below the top of the gauge. When I turn the gauge over the case falls out. Again, the time before loading these cases I used 41.7 grns ofVarget. I figure that the velocity was around 2,500 ft/sec and the time beoire that I used 42.6 grn of Varget with an est. velocity of 2,600 ft/sec.
I also used Shooter's World 44.0 grns of Tactical Rifle @ 2,600 ft/sec with no problems.

I think that if the new primers fit into those cases that I had problems with I will try the Match Rifle powder again but around 2,700 FT/sec. NO MANY!

All of the above loads were loaded with Hornady FL dies (no changes on settings) with the same bullets (Hornady Interlock 150 gn SP) and cases all trimmer to the same lenght.
 
You state you are using a bolt gun and the primers are backing out; somehow you have a headspace problem. Check the brass and the rifle for correct headspace before you fire another round. Without knowing you are asking for trouble!
 
Is bolt stiff to open?

Can you chamber a loaded round and extract it?

Usually in a bolt gun the first indication of pressure is a stiff bolt.

If a case is stuck and you're not really having to force the bolt to get it unlocked and to the rear you either have a failed extractor and it's slipping the rim or massive headspace and the extractor is never popping over the rim.

I lean toward the latter since your primers are backing out. More pressure may mask it by forcing the case back against the bolt face.
 
Last edited:
If the bolt is not extracting the case, but the case pushes out with no resistance, then either there is a problem with the extractor, or there is a headspacing problem (either with the gun, or with the brass being sized with the shoulders too far back). Try chambering a sized case, empty, then see if the bolt will extract it.

Primers standing proud of the fired case is a good sign of low pressure. The primer, when initially detonated, will push part way out of the primer pocket. When the powder charge ignites, a full pressure round will cause the brass to expand, grabbing the chamber wall at the front, but the rear of the case is pushed back against the bolt face, stretching the case and pushing the primer back into the pocket. High charges will flatten the primer as well. I will bet that the protruding primers are well rounded.
 
Bolt gun and not extracting? Uhh. Weird...is your extractor broken by chance? Trying to figure how the cases come out easily via cleaning rod, but wont with the normal extraction via opening bolt. Something is funky here...
 
Some time back, someone said not to firer a non-loaded case (primer only) in a revolver because the primer will back out and you will have a hard time opening the cylinder.

Below are some pictures of those cases. I do not see any problems around the neck of the cases and I had the same problem in a different 308. It has to be underpressure.
 

Attachments

  • 10 V 1.jpg
    10 V 1.jpg
    95.7 KB · Views: 24
  • Case gauge 1.jpg
    Case gauge 1.jpg
    47.5 KB · Views: 25
  • Gauge 2.jpg
    Gauge 2.jpg
    40.2 KB · Views: 93
  • Head Stamps.jpg
    Head Stamps.jpg
    81.7 KB · Views: 26
  • Stand up.jpg
    Stand up.jpg
    92.1 KB · Views: 25
Check your extractor out..if you put a sized case in and chamber it, it should extract normally.

Those primers are reeeealy out...wow!

Have you chronographed the loads? The books show what they get..too many variables in lots (powder and primers) etc in the mix...you wont know for sure what theyre at till you run em over a chrono..
 
I just made a dummy load with one of those cases and it did not extract. Then I tried some snap caps and they extracted. I guessing the shoulder are pushed too far back but that is a guess. If that is the case, would firing them push the shoulder back to the end of the shoulder in the chamber? Or do you just throw them away?

How can the die change the push back on shoulders if you do not adjust it?
 
Check the rifle to see if the barrel nut is tight, there are plenty of ways for headspace to change. First and foremost have a gunsmith inspect the rifle before you go any further. Good luck.
 
Had to look at the pics of the cases again, and noticed something..are those fired rds below min on the case gauge ? If so, your pushing shoulder wayy to far when sizing.that could be the source of some of , if nit all issues.. way short shoulder, extractor cant engage properly, and primers back out since there is a lot of travel to bolt face...

Its a theory at least.

Can you get a pic if a sized and un fired rd in the case gauge?
 
index.php


That’s a fail on the case gauge
 
Jabroni I think you might be correct about the shoulders. Those were already resized.

I just measured those cases with a Hornady shoulder gauge and they were 3.672 to 3.676". Then I measured what the distance of the gauge by itself and measured 2.004". If my measurements are correct the shoulder is between 1.668 to 1.763. When looking in the Hornady manual I think it shows 1.360".

Tomorrow I am going to get a set of digital caliper and measure again. Do not trust my readings tonight. Also, I have never bought any factory 308 ammo and I have been shooting 308 for 4 years but I want to compare factory with my reloads.
 
Another vote for headspace problem. Clearly short vs the case gauge, probably short vs the chamber but you won’t know until you know. Have you got some brass that you haven’t recently resized?

It’s really odd to me that the firing pin strike is not consistently located on the primer.
 
KnotRight said:
I just made a dummy load with one of those cases and it did not extract. Then I tried some snap caps and they extracted. I guessing the shoulder are pushed too far back but that is a guess.
Click to expand...

Not a guess. You just demonstrated it.

KnotRight said:
If that is the case, would firing them push the shoulder back to the end of the shoulder in the chamber?
Click to expand...

No, firing will seat the shoulder at the front of the chamber, and then push the case head back onto the bolt face. (Assuming you use enough powder.) In your situation, if the case does stretch all the way back to correct length, it will also leave a definite thin spot in the case walls near the web.

The case has to stretch by about the same amount those primers are sticking out. That might be too much, and the case might separate instead of holding together.

KnotRight said:
Or do you just throw them away?
Click to expand...

Or take them to the metal scrap dealer. I think they'll give you about $3/pound. They might want to talk about how you're sure there's no live primers or powder in there. :)

KnotRight said:
How can the die change the push back on shoulders if you do not adjust it?
Click to expand...

I'm betting your die has always been adjusted to set the shoulder back a little too much, and firing the case with not quite enough powder left the case still shorter than spec. Then running it through the sizing die again didn't even touch the shoulder, and on successive firings it got shorter and shorter until the extractor just pushed it into the chamber but didn't jump the rim.

+1 on making sure that the barrel is tight (given that it's a Savage bolt action).

+1 on the RCBS Precision Mic. The Wilson will give you a good visual check, but the RCBS (or Hornady, etc.) will enable you to tune your resize to maybe .002" shorter than your chamber, which is more like what you really want.

I think somebody in the Reloading for sale forum is offering a set of Redding match shell holders (Redding #1 fits .308). That would give you better control of your shoulder setback.

If you want to keep the velocity down a little from max, try a faster powder -- not less powder.
 
gunwonk said:
I'm betting your die has always been adjusted to set the shoulder back a little too much, and firing the case with not quite enough powder left the case still shorter than spec. Then running it through the sizing die again didn't even touch the shoulder, and on successive firings it got shorter and shorter until the extractor just pushed it into the chamber but didn't jump the rim.
Click to expand...

Doesn’t seem likely that bottle-neck rifle brass will get shorter through firing even with the lightest of loads. I think it more likely that he recently changed shell holders or bumped a die.
 
I had a similar problem with stuck cases that can't be extracted without help.
Traced it to CBC Brazilian NATO ammo, which chambered fine, but gained 0.012" of girth upon being fired.
The primers were not backed out.
My FAL fires the CBC ammo just fine, but it's an extractin' monster, flingin' brass 20 feet or more.
Both my BLR and my Winchester 88 had stuck cases that had to be tapped out with a cleaning rod.
 
Last edited:
JimB said:
Doesn’t seem likely that bottle-neck rifle brass will get shorter through firing even with the lightest of loads. I think it more likely that he recently changed shell holders or bumped a die.
Click to expand...
In itself, firing low pressure loads will shorten rimless cases. There is a cure for that but it would be better to start another discussion than run this one astray.
Off the top of my head there are three possibilities for the OP's dilema, first the rifle has headspace, unlikely but needs to be checked, second the brass is being shortened from a low pressure load, maybe and lastly the reloading setup is out of adjustment or using the wrong components, very likely for an obvious newby reloader.
An easy check is to fire a factory round after making sure the rifle's headspace is correct. If the round has no obvious defects then either go back to high pressure loads with new brass or have an experienced reloader do an overview of the OP's process, there is a solution.
A protruding primer is a certain sign of a near disaster and luckily the OP knows his limitations, good luck in the future.
 
Last edited:
MacEntyre said:
Traced it to CBC Brazilian NATO ammo, which chambered fine, but gained 0.12" of girth upon being fired.
Click to expand...

I had similar issues with CBC. Did your extractor rip a section of rim clean off? Mine had to be tapped out with a cleaning rod but I didn't measure case expansion. I'm thinking the rifle is overgassed, the powder too slow with pressure peaking late or brass too soft or a combination.
 
Howland, the extractor did not rip the rim of the case. The primer blow back some how pushed the case forward and pulled it out of the extractor. I sent the pictures to Shooters World and the guy they said he bets that the amount the primer backed out is how much the shoulder was pushed back.

I going back to sctrach on my next reloads of 308. I bought some factory ammo (first time ever buying 308) and want to see what the shoulder is after firing a couple to setup the die again.
 
Make sure you are using the case gauge when sizing. The case should fall in between the top step and the bottom on a sized case. A fired case will likely be above the top step, or at it. that might be the disconnect here. Dont worry about what a fired case looks like in the gauge.

Size your cases as noted above, trim and debur them. You can check length in the gauge after trimming. I trim to 2.00, and when checking length in a gauge (put it in, and then set it on your bench upside down) the case will be flush with bottom step on the underside of the gauge.

Here is another question, what do your fired cases look like afterward? Sooty?
 
Here is a pic i borrowed from the web
 

Attachments

  • le-wilson-308-winchester-case-gage-04029.jpg
    le-wilson-308-winchester-case-gage-04029.jpg
    67.7 KB · Views: 8
Howland said:
I had similar issues with CBC. Did your extractor rip a section of rim clean off? Mine had to be tapped out with a cleaning rod but I didn't measure case expansion. I'm thinking the rifle is overgassed, the powder too slow with pressure peaking late or brass too soft or a combination.
Click to expand...
No rim damage, no primer bulge, but the case expanded 0.012" and stuck in the chamber. I fired several other brands in the same rifles and never had any problems. No other brands expanded like the CBC did. Only the FAL could eat the CBC and fling 'em away like litter... an' I left 'em layin' there, too!
 
Last edited:
Weird re CBC...Ive found CBC is good brass, all my guns like it, and I get mire reloads with it than Lake City...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom