45 days of dryfire, and beyond

I will probably get shot at for this one.

But who cares if you can hit a paper target at 10 yards or you can do it .0001 of a sec faster than Joey the gun gamer?

Can you shoot a man thats trying to kill you?
Can you kill a charging animal that means to eat you?

Everything else is just fun and games. :p
 
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(their reaction time + their movement time to tap me)
This could be a killer for your time. Too many additional things to consider. When we get new folks we test their true reaction to buzzer time. We let them do this 3 times for an average. Hold your blaster out in front of you....you are shooting at nothing....wait for the buzzer and fire. This will give you your reaction time to the buzzer. This time hardly ever changes and if it does it is measured in .000s. Try it ...you'll like it.
Best time here so far??? .170
 
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Don't forget that in an actual match I don't get to hear the beep, so I'm always behind the curve.

For those who don't know I'm over half deaf and with plugs in I can't hear the beep even with a powered headset over the top. So at a match I have to have the person with the timer physically tap me so I know it's time to go. If I was better I would worry about losing all that time (their reaction time + their movement time to tap me) but just not missing 1 shot makes up for all of that in my world.

Oh yeah forgot about that.

I think we need to rig up some kind of shock collar.
 
I will probably get shot at for this one.

But who cares if you can hit a paper target at 10 yards or you can do it .0001 of a sec faster than Joey the gun gamer?

Can you shoot a man thats trying to kill you?
Can you kill a charging animal that means to eat you?

Everything else is just fun and games. :p

Why does all shooting have to be about killing people and gunfights? Seriously. Why?
Can it not just be about fun and improving your shooting?
Why does it all have to be about shooting someone or something? Not “shooting at you”. I just really don’t understand.

Do you not just enjoy shooting for the fun of it and want to improve you skills?

And I don’t understand why you think people who practice rigorously can’t hit a person, lol. Like they can shoot paper but would somehow freeze up in “real life”. Is it some kind of advantage to not train? Like if you suck at shooting you are a master at gunfighting?
Are people who don’t give a shit somehow total badasses that can shoot people because they don’t practice and try to get better? It’s a ridiculous notion. Utterly and completely without reason.

Do you think race car drivers can’t drive in a “real life situation”? Like, you’re going to outperform Jeff Gordon because you don’t practice “Joey Racer” driving? Driving to Walmart everyday has prepared you for real life driving emergencies? Okey dokey master!

Boggles the mind! Reminds me of the folks that say “boxers are worthless in a street fight”.
Well, I’ve seen several boxers in street fights. They beat the shit out of people in a matter of seconds. They turn people’s faces into speed bags.
Wanna learn how to fight? Start by taking a boxing lesson.
 
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Why does all shooting have to be about killing people and gunfights? Seriously. Why?
Can it not just be about fun and improving your shooting?
Why does it all have to be about shooting someone or something? Not “shooting at you”. I just really don’t understand.

Do you not just enjoy shooting for the fun of it and want to improve you skills?

And I don’t understand why you think people who practice rigorously can’t hit a person, lol. Like they can shoot paper but would somehow freeze up in “real life”. Is it some kind of advantage to not train? Like if you suck at shooting you are a master at gunfighting?
Are people who don’t give a shit somehow total badasses that can shoot people because they don’t practice and try to get better? It’s a ridiculous notion. Utterly and completely without reason.

Do you think race car drivers can’t drive in a “real life situation”? Like, you’re going to outperform Jeff Gordon because you don’t practice “Joey Racer” driving? Driving to Walmart everyday has prepared you for real life driving emergencies? Okey dokey master!

Boggles the mind! Reminds me of the folks that say “boxers are worthless in a street fight”.
Well, I’ve seen several boxers in street fights. They beat the shit out of people in a matter of seconds. They turn people’s faces into speed bags.
Wanna learn how to fight? Start by taking a boxing lesson.

As you well know I am pretty clueless, but I'd say psychologically there is a difference between shooting targets and people. The physical skills may be the same, but the mental aspect is different. For 'normal' people shooting other humans might be challenging. My guess is you could crush a gang banger on a competition course, but shooting humans that dude would have an advantage due to zero emotions or moral hesitation. The situation would dictitate a large part of the outcome.
 
As you well know I am pretty clueless, but I'd say psychologically there is a difference between shooting targets and people. The physical skills may be the same, but the mental aspect is different. For 'normal' people shooting other humans might be challenging. My guess is you could crush a gang banger on a competition course, but shooting humans that dude would have an advantage due to zero emotions or moral hesitation. The situation would dictitate a large part of the outcome.

So, do you think the answer is not training?

What Is it you think is going to prepare you to draw your weapon and shoot somebody? Not practicing?

Of course its different! Let’s use the driving analogy again:
You have a life or death situation where your driving skills can save your life ...or not.

Is being a practicing and decent race car driver going to hurt you or help you in that situation?

Clearly, club racing on the weekend is different than a life or death situation. So, in an emergency situation who do you want behind the wheel? Someone who doesn’t practice and implement drivin skills or someone who does all the time? This question is retorical, because he answer is painfully obvious.

How do you practice shooting people? Do you think delta force operators actually shoot people in practice? Or do they shoot paper targets?
They practice by shooting paper targets. You can only approximate as best you can. Doing nothing isn’t going to help you. Calling people out online who do practice isn’t going to help you.

In a bad scenario, Jayne is going to resort to what he practices and trains at, just like a boxer or anyone else. What are you going to do? Resort to what you practice and train at.
So if you do nothing, you aren’t going to kick a bunch of ass, is my guess.

Edit: zero emotions and “moral hesitation” haha ok. If I felt my life threatened I’d have zero hesitation in blowing his head off. Maybe speak for yourself.
 
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Just don’t understand the obsession. Never understood the game. All the modifications to the point of absurdity. Whoever has the most money or time or both wins.

But just because I don’t see the purpose doesn’t mean I’m attacking your momma or Jeff Gordan.

Guns to me are for work. Play never enters into my way of thinking. So if I am asking why, its because I don’t have your thought process available to me.

Funny how some people go right off the deep end when confronted with “I don’t understand” or that their “game” is even questioned.
It seems to boggle their mind.
 
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Just don’t understand the obsession. Never understood the game. All the modifications to the point of absurdity. Whoever has the most money or time or both wins.

That's actually not true in lots of cases. Take Chad Thompson, who is something like the head instructor for NC Justice Academy. He teaches folks to shoot in LEO situations. He will also wear your ass out in an IDPA competition shooting a relatively stock Beretta 92. The following shows him with an upgraded USPSA-type gun, but I doubt he "bought" this skill.

 
One of the fastest master class shooters I know runs a stock Glock, and for a long time ran stock sights. I’ve watched him outshoot a 100 shooters at a match. Nicest most humble guy in the world.

Has a job like everybody else and dry fires at home in the evening.
 
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So, do you think the answer is not training?

What Is it you think is going to prepare you to draw your weapon and shoot somebody? Not practicing?

Of course its different! Let’s use the driving analogy again:
You have a life or death situation where your driving skills can save your life ...or not.

Is being a practicing and decent race car driver going to hurt you or help you in that situation?

Clearly, club racing on the weekend is different than a life or death situation. So, in an emergency situation who do you want behind the wheel? Someone who doesn’t practice and implement drivin skills or someone who does all the time? This question is retorical, because he answer is painfully obvious.

How do you practice shooting people? Do you think delta force operators actually shoot people in practice? Or do they shoot paper targets?
They practice by shooting paper targets. You can only approximate as best you can. Doing nothing isn’t going to help you. Calling people out online who do practice isn’t going to help you.

In a bad scenario, Jayne is going to resort to what he practices and trains at, just like a boxer or anyone else. What are you going to do? Resort to what you practice and train at.
So if you do nothing, you aren’t going to kick a bunch of ass, is my guess.

Edit: zero emotions and “moral hesitation” haha ok. If I felt my life threatened I’d have zero hesitation in blowing his head off. Maybe speak for yourself.

I think anytime you pull the trigger it is good on some level. But thinking you are ready for anything if you sit at a firing line, dry fire or compete is not realisitc. In a perfect world we would all have the time and resources to dry fire every day, do some precision rifle shooting, shoot a couple matches, and then have a special ops guy run you through a gauntlet of scenarios. But that isn't all going to happen. I just get a kick out of how right everybody is about their preferred training or competition. It almost becomes a religious debate here. From a neutral, self admitted neophyte it is amusing. I think @fieldgrade posted something about how quickly a bunch of like minded people can turn a gun thread into a pissing match. So true.
 
Just don’t understand the obsession. Never understood the game. All the modifications to the point of absurdity. Whoever has the most money or time or both wins.

But just because I don’t see the purpose doesn’t mean I’m attacking your momma or Jeff Gordan.

Guns to me are for work. Play never enters into my way of thinking. So if I am asking why, its because I don’t have your thought process available to me.

Funny how some people go right off the deep end when confronted with “I don’t understand” or that their “game” is even questioned.
It seems to boggle their mind.

I am pretty sure there are competitons that you shoot your stock gun. No need to compete in the fancy gun world if you don't want to. I get your point though. But some people shoot for fun too.
 
I think anytime you pull the trigger it is good on some level. But thinking you are ready for anything if you sit at a firing line, dry fire or compete is not realisitc. In a perfect world we would all have the time and resources to dry fire every day, do some precision rifle shooting, shoot a couple matches, and then have a special ops guy run you through a gauntlet of scenarios. But that isn't all going to happen. I just get a kick out of how right everybody is about their preferred training or competition. It almost becomes a religious debate here. From a neutral, self admitted neophyte it is amusing. I think @fieldgrade posted something about how quickly a bunch of like minded people can turn a gun thread into a pissing match. So true.

It's a thread about a guy who shoots matches and wants to improve through dryfire.
Then people come in and poo poo it. People that don't shoot in matches and don't even seem to know that Production class (regular every day guns like the Glock shown in the very first post) is the most popular class in competition pistol shooting.

Then, when people try to educate them, they throw there hands up and and exclaim that people are "going off the deep end" and talking about "religious debates" and whatnot. They have zero experience and try to educate the people who do have experience. It's bizarre really.
 
I like what Hackathorn says in that link above. To those who say competitive shooting will get you killed on the street, he has some interesting comments, and I doubt anyone from either camp would take issue with them.
 
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I like what Hackathorn says in that link above
He used to teach The Triad of Survival. A triangle with the top point called "Awareness"
The other points were "A Plan" and "A Weapon".
He pointed out the one thing you could do without on the triangle was...A weapon.
Awareness and a Plan will usually take care of you.
 
It's a thread about a guy who shoots matches and wants to improve through dryfire.
Then people come in and poo poo it. People that don't shoot in matches and don't even seem to know that Production class (regular every day guns like the Glock shown in the very first post) is the most popular class in competition pistol shooting.

Then, when people try to educate them, they throw there hands up and and exclaim that people are "going off the deep end" and talking about "religious debates" and whatnot. They have zero experience and try to educate the people who do have experience. It's bizarre really.
Interesting take. Not the truth but interesting none the less.
 
Got to the range this weekend with some friends and we actually got off our collective butts and setup the correct targets for a real El Prez drill.... at 8 yards because that's where the nice flat spot was at the range. Is it supposed to be 7 or 10? Eh.

Anyway, I found that my draw, transitions and reloads were not too bad. The dry practice is paying off.

What you can't learn in dry practice (as we know) is recoil management. A lot of my dropped shots in the drills were spot on left/right, but the 2nd shot was either outside the A zone high or low. Almost never left/right. So while I can transition and pull the trigger at the correct time, hanging on for the recoil impulse or coming back down is not always there. Live practice is good for something after all. :)

My best runs were when the split times were very consistent. Draw and first shot in the 1.5-range, .28-.32 splits, reload in the 1.8 and you're basically in the mid-6s with solid hits. I can do in the 8s pretty reliably with good accuracy but I notice my splits are not even... I'm going fast then slowing down then speeding up again.

All of the fumbles were on the reload, you can't run the gun fast enough to make up for taking 3 seconds trying to stuff the mag into the edge of the pistol grip. Always try at least twice or maybe 3 times before actually inserting it correctly, and it helps to say "WTF?" out loud while screwing up too.

On one run I had a the gun run dry before the last shot. Might need to dry practice counting to 6 when loading mags.

Otherwise, a good practice session.
 
The Cooper original El Prez is shot at 10 meters [33 feet]. The 8 inch As are 10 feet apart. The fastest time ever fired here CLEAN is 13 seconds. While there is nothing wrong with altering the course of fire to suit any reason you have, do NOT think you are shooting El Prez. Go to YT and watch Ken shoot an El Prez. He does it in just over 11 seconds. He makes the point that people commonly report they shoot it in 4-5 seconds NOT! If you run across a person that can shoot a REAL El Prez in 10 seconds CLEAN, shake his hand. He is extraordinary.
 
The Cooper original El Prez is shot at 10 meters [33 feet]. The 8 inch As are 10 feet apart.

So that's why we were all so zippy fast. Distance and spacing were all wrong. So maybe we need to call our drill the "3rd world prez", where we have the guns so we make up whatever rules we want.
 
You're a good man...anybody that can find humor is a pal o mine! We [as in me] all like to do stuff we do well. The Wizard and the El Prez are so good because they're kinda like golf [ugh]. There isn't a score...it's just whatever you can do on that day. I know practicing the way you do helps. I have seen it too many times over 100s of shooters in 50+ years of shooting. Take time today to look at Ken Hackathorn shoot the El Prez and explain the distances. It's tufffff!. On YT
 
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Some dry vs live data:

shot the IDPA 5x5 qualifier with an actual gun (I know right, who fires live ammo?) and cold or 'warmed up' I was stuck in the MM category. Either slow and accurate, or fast and inaccurate with lots of penalties, but every run was within 2 seconds of each other. Lame.

shot the IDPA 5x5 qualifier with the laser pistol and shot tracking software and cold or 'warmed up' I was smokin' master class shooters. Yea. So a nice trigger and zero recoil and I can 'shoot' fast and accurate, almost 2x of my live fire speed.

My conclusion is that dry fire is good for some things, but live fire is not just "verification of dry skills" or whatever someone famous has said. You can't learn everything without the BANG.
 
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Some dry vs live data:

shot the IDPA 5x5 qualifier with an actual gun (I know right, who fires live ammo?) and cold or 'warmed up' I was stuck in the MM category. Either slow and accurate, or fast and inaccurate with lots of penalties, but every run was within 2 seconds of each other. Lame.

shot the IDPA 5x5 qualifier with the laser pistol and shot tracking software and cold or 'warmed up' I was smokin' master class shooters. Yea. So a nice trigger and zero recoil and I can 'shoot' fast and accurate, almost 2x of my live fire speed.

My conclusion is that dry fire is good for some things, but live fire is not just "verification of dry skills" or whatever someone famous has said. You can't learn everything without the BANG.

Better to just throw in the towel with the laser gun and dryfire then.
 
I've gone beyond hitting a wall lately, I've been going backwards. Quickly. So, rather than let that happen for no good reason, I decided to try something new. I've started a series of lessons with Chris Tilley. As predicted in my first lesson he changed my grip, grip pressure, stance, posture, shoulder position, head position and arm extension. Basically everything except the pistol and which eye is dominant. I shot the last match trying to do it exactly like he wanted, and failed at the match hard. With everything different, nothing worked.

I kept dryfiring using the new everything for a week, then had to go on a business trip where I would not have access to anything to dryfire with. Not wanting to stop for a week, I came up with this:
goofy_wood_glock_trainer.jpg

It's the little block of cedar that we keep in the luggage to keep it smelling nice. Turns out that with the edges rounded a bit and one pass with some gaffers tape it's pretty much a dead ringer for a glock grip (gen 5 maybe, no finger grooves!). I measured up to where the top of the slide would be, cut it at the correct angle and got fancy with a set of OEM sights that were sitting in my junk parts box.

I spent time each day and night establishing the correct grip/posture/etc, over and over and over again. Today I got to the range and damn if it didn't help. The new methods seemd a little less awkward and when I found myself missing a lot and looked I had slipped back to my old stance/grip/posture almost every time. Stop, go back to what Chris told me, and start again and things got better.

Absolutely none of it is natural, and it's incredibly slow. Unusably slow at this point, and it only works with both hands on the gun. But, it does seem to work. No where to go but up.

My goal is to take a lesson every 3rd week and practice 2-3 live fire sessions in-between with lots of dry work at home. After 10 lessons, that should be 30 weeks of work on this. By then, if I'm not able to get into "sharp shooter" in the IDPA qualification, then I think I'm going to have to accept the fact that I've maxed out in this particular skill and just move on to something else.
 
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I think that will work if you did your part. Each of the things he changed had been holding you back most likely. Change is painful, especially when you have well learned habits to overcome, which is harder than staring from scratch.

All of my open pistols have 90 c-mores precisely so that my normal iron sight picture doesn’t lose the dot, so I don’t have to present differently for iron and dots.

Changing everything at once will be hard but probably faster than changing one thing at a time, so there is that. It will be slow and demoralizing to start with but stick with it and it will pay off.
 
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