6.5 Grendel gun?????

KnotRight

KnotRight

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I was thinking that I was going to build an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel and then started thinking about a bolt action rifle. Buy the time I buy everything for the upper (less BCG) I will have about another $800 in the gun. For $800, I can buy a nice bolt rifle and build the AR over the next year.
I am not sure that I want to run through loaded rounds as quickly as an AR shoots. I do have a brass catcher that will mount on the gun to catch the brass.

I would only be shooting steel and hoping to reach out to 1000 yards.
Any suggestion?
 
KnotRight said:
I been looking around the web and finding a bolt action in 6.5 Grendel is not easy.
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Howa, I have messed with the cz, and imho the Howa beats it. When I have a few other things taken care of I will be ordering one for my next hunting rifle. It’s probably going to get a decent 1-4 and it’s going to go every where with me on the woods
Edit: I have an 18inch ar grendal build and it will shoot a sub.75 group with factory hst ammo.
 
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Gray said:
Lol. I’ve got a AR in 6.5 grendel that I’ve never even chambered a round in.

I need to get out more.
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I laugh because I've only took mine out once in two years. I need to get out more but my boss disagrees. :(

@KnotRight Get what your heart wants most... you know you will be happy that way. :)
 
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Cluck Norris said:
Howa, I have messed with the cz, and imho the Howa beats it. When I have a few other things taken care of I will be ordering one for my next hunting rifle. It’s probably going to get a decent 1-4 and it’s going to go every where with me on the woods
Edit: I have an 18inch ar grendal build and it will shoot a sub.75 group with factory hst ammo.
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Liar, liar pants on fire.

🤬
 
I think the advantage of the 6.5 Grendel is in it's ability to function in the AR platform. For me the Grendel in an AR platform gives me long range accuracy and energy with the capacity for sustained rate of fire. In other words, I can accurately engage multiple targets at greater range with quick follow-up shots at the same target or multiple targets. And if engagement changes to a closer range environment, I have capacity there as well. That's its flexibility and strength.

If you're just going for long range and want to use a bolt, you might as well go 6.5 Creedmore. You're acutally limiting yourself, doing it with a Grendel in a bolt gun. IMHO
 
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georgel said:
If you're just going for long range and want to use a bolt, you might as well go 6.5 Creedmore. You're acutally limiting yourself, doing it with a Grendel in a bolt gun. IMHO
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I do have the 6.5 CM in a bolt rifle. I like the bullet so well, it got me thinking about the 6.5 bullet in a smaller case that would run in an AR-15 platform. Then again, I do not want an AR-10 platform because of the size but going to do an 18–20-inch barrel when I do build the AR.
 
KnotRight said:
I do have the 6.5 CM in a bolt rifle. I like the bullet so well, it got me thinking about the 6.5 bullet in a smaller case that would run in an AR-15 platform. Then again, I do not want an AR-10 platform because of the size but going to do an 18–20-inch barrel when I do build the AR.
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Then, I would think sticking with the original AR idea is the way to go. I think you reasoned your way out of it, thinking about cost. That said, Howa does have this cute little mini action platform that's tailored for the Grendel. ;)

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KnotRight said:
I do have the 6.5 CM in a bolt rifle. I like the bullet so well, it got me thinking about the 6.5 bullet in a smaller case that would run in an AR-15 platform. Then again, I do not want an AR-10 platform because of the size but going to do an 18–20-inch barrel when I do build the AR.
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I'm glad that you mentioned you have the 6.5 CM rifle. Otherwise you might have gotten very frustrated at 1000 yards with a AR15 Grendel. 1000 yards is really pushing it for an AR15 Grendel. Be aware that much of the published performance data is from a 24-inch barrel. Arne Brennan, one of the developers of the 6.5 Grendel, DID in fact briefly shoot it in competition to 1000m, but he used a custom bolt gun with a 26" barrel and ran at much higher pressures than an AR15 could tolerate. For long-range competition, he switched to a more powerful cartridge, the 6.5x47 Lapua, which is comparable to the 6.5 CM.

The 6.5 Grendel is indeed a good cartridge, it just has its limitations. It was designed to fit into an AR15-based rifle and still have decent bolt life. You could push it a little harder in some bolt guns.

Although you mentioned that you like 6.5's, if you were determined to shoot at 1000 yards with an AR15, I would have suggested you move down to 6mm and the 6mm ARC. The ARC is closely related to the Grendel (based on the same case, just necked-down, with the shoulder pushed back 0.030"). For what it is worth, Hornady publishes two sets of reloading data for the 6mm ARC. The "Gas Gun" loads are limited to 52,000psi, but the "Bolt Gun" loads are for 62,000 psi. I would imagine that a bolt 6.5 Grendel could handle similar pressures if it has enough chamber support. The Grendel's case walls are relatively thin near the base.
 
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Fess said:
I'm glad that you mentioned you have the 6.5 CM rifle. Otherwise you might have gotten very frustrated at 1000 yards with a AR15 Grendel. 1000 yards is really pushing it for an AR15 Grendel. Be aware that much of the published performance data is from a 24-inch barrel. Arne Brennan, one of the developers of the 6.5 Grendel, DID in fact briefly shoot it in competition to 1000m, but he used a custom bolt gun with a 26" barrel and ran at much higher pressures than an AR15 could tolerate. For long-range competition, he switched to a more powerful cartridge, the 6.5x47 Lapua, which is comparable to the 6.5 CM.

The 6.5 Grendel is indeed a good cartridge, it just has its limitations. It was designed to fit into an AR15-based rifle and still have decent bolt life. You could push it a little harder some bolt guns.

Although you mentioned that you like 6.5's, if you were determined to shoot at 1000 yards with an AR15, I would have suggested you move down to 6mm and the 6mm ARC. The ARC is closely related to the Grendel (based on the same case, just necked-down, with the shoulder pushed back 0.030"). For what it is worth, Hornady publishes two sets of reloading data for the 6mm ARC. The "Gas Gun" loads are limited to 52,000psi, but the "Bolt Gun" loads are for 62,000 psi. I would imagine that a bolt 6.5 Grendel could handle similar pressures if it has enough chamber support. The Grendel's case walls are relatively thin near the base.
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@Fess thanks for the reply. I do not want to stray too far away from the main cartridges that used to be gotten with some ease.

Back when I was in college (72-76), I knew nothing about rifles except 22 LRs and had a friend that I shot with a lot had a 6 MM and 22-250. I fell in love with them. When I got back into reloading, I bought a set of used 6MM and 22-250 dies. I have no idea how that 6MM compares to all the 6mms out there now,
 
The 6mm ARC is a cousin of the 6.5 Grendel and 6mm PPC specifically optimized for long distance shooting from the AR15. It is slower than the 6mm Remington and 243 Winchester, but significantly more compact. Hornady says it designed the 6mm ARC for a military agency. Hornady set the case dimensions to work with their long, high-BC 103 to 108 grain bullets. It can stay supersonic to well over 1000 yards when shot from an AR15's with 18 inch barrels. I have seen reports of 2550-2700 fps with 105-108 grain bullets when fired from AR15's with 18 inch barrels. 58-grain bullets can get up to around 3300 fps from those rifles. As mentioned earlier, bolt guns can run the 6mm ARC at higher pressures and Hornady claims that a bolt gun with a 24" barrel get about 300 fps more than the above numbers.

I suspect that the 6mm ARC will be around for a while since it is pretty much the best long range cartridge for the AR15 that has factory ammo. Similar wildcat cartridges have been around for a long time, so Hornady had the advantage of letting others do most of the development work. The 6mm ARC can be viewed as a slightly longer version of the 6mm PPC or a slightly shorter version of the 6mmAR and 243 LBC, all of which have been used in competition for well over a decade.

A lot of hunters still prefer the 6.5mm Grendel and its larger diameter bullets, but the 6mm ARC is becoming more popular for shooting targets at long range.
 
The reason the 6.5 g is not higly supported in a bolt gun is for a few reasons. It has an oddball bolt face , *obviously the 7.62x39*. That limits your availability of chamberings down the road if you want to have a barrel spun for a different chambering.

The other is that sometimes you will have problems with ejection in a bolt action. The grendel case is really short which creates more of an angle when the case clears the chamber. If the spring tension on the ejector is too high then it will push itself off of the bolt face before being ejected. I've seen this quite a few times in savages and 700s when using 6 br and dasher.

The 6.5 g is great for an ar15 which is what I believe it was made for so it is limited by design. But there are many other chamberings I would use for a bolt gun to get more efficiency out of my loads.
 
I'm in a similar spot, with a related cartridge. For 6mm ARC I started with the AR and I'm currently trying to figure out what my bolt action strategy will be. Howa mini with the option to go prefit down the road.. or bite the bullet and go Zermat and build from there. Both 6ARC and the 6.5 Grendel are the PPC bolt head, and thanks to the growing popularity of 6 ARC in bolt gun configurations you should be seeing more general availability PPC boltheads on actions. Most of the platforms that are 6ARC but don't offer a 6.5G and have prefit barrels should be an easy swap if you decide to go that route.

I will also say.. depending on what your needs are, 6ARC sounds like it might be a sweet fit for what you're doing. The factory ammo availability isn't great (pretty much limited to Hornady 103/105/108 match contour bullets) but reloading for bolts seems to be very forgiving, with the AR being a bit pickier which is odd given the goals of Hornady with the cartridge. Loading with 29.3g LeverEvolution, cci 450's and Berger 105vlds I've got my 18in AR throwing pills at 2665fps, grouping about .8-.9in at 100 and ringing steel out to 1000. Factory 105 Hornady blacks hold about an inch and the other two (match 108 and the "hunter" 103) open up quite a bit for whatever reason.

I'm looking at getting rid of my 6.5CM bolt and going to all 6ARC just to make the reloading stash a little more uniform and from everything I've seen, it'll be doing just as well at the longer range with a longer barrel life and a good bit less recoil
 
KnotRight said:
I was thinking that I was going to build an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel and then started thinking about a bolt action rifle. Buy the time I buy everything for the upper (less BCG) I will have about another $800 in the gun. For $800, I can buy a nice bolt rifle and build the AR over the next year.
I am not sure that I want to run through loaded rounds as quickly as an AR shoots. I do have a brass catcher that will mount on the gun to catch the brass.

I would only be shooting steel and hoping to reach out to 1000 yards.
Any suggestion?
Click to expand...
I started down the same road about 3 1/2 years ago. I started out with a Howa mini action bought from another member here to learn the cartridge with. It also turned out to be an excellent little deer rifle. Over the last year and a half I have put together a Grendel AR out of a no name upper I picked up from another member here with a PSA lower upgraded with a Hiperfire Elite trigger. Not counting the scope (Athlon BTR Gen 2) I have just under $700.00 in it. Not bad for the money, and it has turned out to be a shooter.
Two things to know. First, if I was buying the bolt action again I would probably go with the Ruger American, just because it takes a standard AR magazine instead of the propitiatory 5 round sold by Howa. Second, if you don't reload, ammo is going to be expensive. It's out there, but the cheap Russian stuff is about 66 cents/round and the Hornady 123 grain is about $1.50 if you can find it.
 
@Stick Thanks. I did build the AR with a lower that I have put together with parts that I had laying around. Did put a Timey trigger in it. The upper is the PSA special that they offered a couple of months ago. My guess is that I have a little over $800 in the gun. I have only shot it one time and was not completely satisfied. It has to do with the adjustable gas block that came with the upper. I lost the adjustment screw and did not know it. I have since replaced the gas block. Second, I am not sure about the scope mounts that I am using. It is hard to get on the right plane with the scope.
Since I started thinking about doing this build, I have yet to find any factory ammo on the shelf. I do reload everything that I shoot. Also, thanks for the info about the Ruger American.
 
KnotRight said:
@Stick Thanks. I did build the AR with a lower that I have put together with parts that I had laying around. Did put a Timey trigger in it. The upper is the PSA special that they offered a couple of months ago. My guess is that I have a little over $800 in the gun. I have only shot it one time and was not completely satisfied. It has to do with the adjustable gas block that came with the upper. I lost the adjustment screw and did not know it. I have since replaced the gas block. Second, I am not sure about the scope mounts that I am using. It is hard to get on the right plane with the scope.
Since I started thinking about doing this build, I have yet to find any factory ammo on the shelf. I do reload everything that I shoot. Also, thanks for the info about the Ruger American.
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SG Ammo usually has some of the Russian, and occasionally they will have a little of the Hornady Black 123 grain. Best bet on brass I have found is to get on the mailing list from Creedmoor Sports, but you have to act fast.
 
I might be a complete fanboy but I just don’t see the appeal or hype surrounding the 6mm ARC, all of the gun rags seem to compare the 108 gr 6mm ARC to the 123 gr 6.5 Grendel which shows the ARC to be superior, ok fine, but when you compare both cartridges shooting 108 gr projectiles, there isn’t much of a difference at all, sure the ARC is ever so slightly flatter out to 1000 yards, but not enough to make a significant difference imo, but the 6.5 Grendel allows you to shoot up to 140 gr bullets which the ARC doesn’t appear to be able to do, so unless I’m missing something, the 6.5 Grendel does everything the 6mm ARC does equally as well while playing within the ARCs “sweet spot” and then exceeds the ARCs capabilities by offering superior performance with heavier bullets, if someone thinks I’m way off base here I won’t be offended with other opinions, and I’d definitely be open to opinions that differ from mine.

To me, one of the biggest selling points of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge was its flexibility, the ability to smoke small critters out to 1k with 80 grain bullets one moment and then having the ability to take medium game with 123 to 140 grain bullets out to 300 yards the next and being flatter shooting than a .308 out to 1100-1200 yards was just an added bonus.
 
Tarowah said:
To me, one of the biggest selling points of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge was its flexibility
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Thats what drew me to the Grendel, also...then I built two lol.
A 20" for longer distance. Im personally only at 500 yds now but hoping to be at 700 by the end of summer.
A 13" SBR that thumps. Very versatile little package. Home defense gun and woods walker in case the local pigs wanna get aggressive.
With an optics change on the SBR, either one is a more than capable game getter, with an expected shot range of about 150 being the interchange point.
Im not as experienced as others with the cartridge, but I really like how it fits to a few different roles.
It works for me, others mileage may vary.

20220211_110318.jpg
 
KnotRight said:
What bullet weight are you using to shoot 5-700 yards?
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I’ve shot my 123gr ELD match over 31.5 grains of BL-C(2) hand loads to 1200 yards out of my self built 24” barreled 6.5 Grendel while at Bang Steel up in VA, I ran out of elevation adjustments on my 6-24 Vortex Diamondback Tactical scope mounted in a Warne 20 MOA mount so I didn’t bother even attempting anything further, if (and this is a huge if) the weather and wind was absolutely perfect I firmly believe 1300 is possible but 1200 is already pushing the round well beyond its intended purpose, the 1040 yard target was doable literally all day long and as long as I did my part, the Grendel makes 1000-1100 yards seem routine, my best string was 8 hits out of 10 rounds fired, I’ve also shot various 108, 120, 123 & 130 grain bullets & powders out to 600 yards with absolute ease, I have no doubt that an 18” to 20” barrel is more than capable of 1k shots, based on my personal experience, shots beyond 1k may be asking a bit much, but I’m by no means an expert so I’m probably wrong because I’ve read posts from people who claim to be able to make 700-800 yard shots regularly with 10.5” barrels with this cartridge.
 
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Just broke a Larue Grendel in yesterday that really shocked me with the accuracy. Probably set up a dozen this year and all were impressive, but this upper was very impressive. With Hornady Black it shot one hole groups one after the other. Then changed to my reloads with 123 SST AR-comp and no change. Never saw such accuracy like that other than bolt guns mostly in benchrest. Mounted a Hogster thermal with the same type accuracy. Been into AR rifles a long time and never saw the likes of this before. I have always laughed about one hole rifles but this was my first in the AR, a three round group would be about the size of a penny.
 
I’m very pleased with my howa mini 223 as well as my howa short actions. However the mini actions. (6.5G, 7.62x39, .223) come with a magazine system thats best described as trash. Mine nosedived the last round of the mag. the plastic bottom housing is a joke. id be much happier if howa / LSI sold the rifles with the same nice bottom metal / internal mag as the rest of howa 1500 line. The factory plastic stock is also worthless.

my howa 223 is setup with the following
-Oregunsmithing bottom metal / 4 rd internal mag
-Bell & Carlson M40 stock
-game reaper low mount
-trijicon credo 3-9x40

the oregunsmithing bottom metal and a stock replacement are IMO essential. The rifle then feels and shoots like it should. Unfortunately that brings the cost up another ~ $500. Flip side is I only paid $475 for the mini action so it still keeps the overall cost around $1k (not including optics or mount of course).
 
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Tarowah said:
I’ve shot my 123gr ELD match over 31.5 grains of BL-C(2) hand loads to 1200 yards out of my self built 24” barreled 6.5 Grendel while at Bang Steel up in VA, I ran out of elevation adjustments on my 6-24 Vortex Diamondback Tactical scope mounted in a Warne 20 MOA mount so I didn’t bother even attempting anything further, if (and this is a huge if) the weather and wind was absolutely perfect I firmly believe 1300 is possible but 1200 is already pushing the round well beyond its intended purpose, the 1040 yard target was doable literally all day long and as long as I did my part, the Grendel makes 1000-1100 yards seem routine, my best string was 8 hits out of 10 rounds fired, I’ve also shot various 108, 120, 123 & 130 grain bullets & powders out to 600 yards with absolute ease, I have no doubt that an 18” to 20” barrel is more than capable of 1k shots, based on my personal experience, shots beyond 1k may be asking a bit much, but I’m by no means an expert so I’m probably wrong because I’ve read posts from people who claim to be able to make 700-800 yard shots regularly with 10.5” barrels with this cartridge.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say if this is even relatively possible, 1K yards with a 20" barrel on a Grendel is no prob. It's more about the shooter, the scope, the scope settings and quality, and weather conditions. In my humble opinion...

CL
 
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