Ammo shortage question

Lager

Lager

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,137
Location
Corn Field, Eastern NC
Rating - 100%
4   0   0
My local club is considering to allow folks to shoot 22 Lr pistols in a center fire action match for those that cannot find centerfire ammo. There has been some discussion as how to score such a match so that they compete fairly together. The idea of a 20% time penalty per stage for rim fire shooters has been brought up to even the scores. What do you think would be fair?
Im thinking of running some common bill drills using my 9mm 1911 and my Ruger MK3 in 22lr this weekend on a timer and submitting my results to the match director to give them some honest differences in times because right now,, the match director is just guessing at 20%. What do you all think ?
 
The IDPA 5x5 Classifier is a relatively quick, easy to set up test. You could run it a couple of times with centerfire and rimfire and compare scores.
 
I've noticed my club is doing the same with some of the friendly matches they host. I went to one on Saturday and only 2 people showed up with .22 so they skipped that round. At the same time, revolvers were supposed to be seperate from semi-autos and we ran them together because there were only 10 participants total anyway.

The shortage of ammo on shelves seems to be affecting this. Some folks can't buy any and don't have any. Other folks have plenty, but won't shoot any until they know they can replace what they shoot.
 
IMO, I think they should just add new .22 division.

People with 9mm shoot against people with 9mm.
.22 vs .22, etc.


Hard to quantify it. Zero recoil helps the .22, but maybe it's hard to reload compared to 9mm. Lots of considerations.
 
score 22 shooters the same as everyone else and separate shooters by making a new division. arbitrary handicaps are just something to argue over later.

The way this is going you may need to add a bayonet division before its over.
 
Last edited:
Everyone has got some good opinions but here is the problem. In this club, the shooters are actually competing for the end of year total score. This means, the highest scoring shooter at the end of year will actually win a good chunk of money. This is why we are trying to come up with a handicap scoring system for the folks that are forced to shoot a 22 due to this ammo problem. I dont know how to make it any more fair then a handicap other then to tell some folks " Sucks to be you because you didn't prepare" Personally, I still have reloading supplies to last me a bit longer but better shooters then me don't.
 
Lager said:
Everyone has got some good opinions but here is the problem. In this club, the shooters are actually competing for the end of year total score. This means, the highest scoring shooter at the end of year will actually win a good chunk of money. This is why we are trying to come up with a handicap scoring system for the folks that are forced to shoot a 22 due to this ammo problem. I dont know how to make it any more fair then a handicap other then to tell some folks " Sucks to be you because you didn't prepare" Personally, I still have reloading supplies to last me a bit longer but better shooters then me don't.
Click to expand...
If money is involved, good luck finding a system people can agree on. I would think the only fair way would be to move to .22 only shoots and/or combined with very limited round count center-fire shoots, like one round per target, 5 or 6 round stages so revolvers and shoot equally.
 
Money prize changes the calculus.

There is no way to change the rules mid season that will be seen a "fair" by all involved. it's already unfair because of the ammo shortage but that's not your fault. change the rules now and it becomes your fault.

Either soldier on and share ammo or end the season early. reduced rnd count matches can work. 22 mixed in or all 22 will not. just my opinion tho.
 
Another option, other than the handicapping, would be to make the rest of the matches rimfire matches. If anyone doesn't want to shoot rimfire then they accept the "handicap" of using a caliber with more recoil.
 
Me. said:
What do you tell people who run out of dollars in a poker tournament? Start using pennies?

Finish the year as a “last man standing” event, even if there is only one shooter in December.


Or cancel the season and refund the money. Like every sporting event or concert this year.
Click to expand...
This ^--
 
georgel said:
If money is involved, good luck finding a system people can agree on. I would think the only fair way would be to move to .22 only shoots and/or combined with very limited round count center-fire shoots, like one round per target, 5 or 6 round stages so revolvers and shoot equally.
Click to expand...
Im liking the idea of a single shot targets, this would eliminate any advantage that a 22 lr shooter might have over a centerfire. Thanks for the idea.
 
It is not wise to change the rules in the middle of a competition. Finish this year using the rules with which the match started. Money is involved, so this is not just an informal match people shoot for bragging rights. If necessary, change the rules next year and let people decide then whether or not they want to participate with the new set of rules.

Things can get real messy when money is involved.
 
Charlie said:
It is not wise to change the rules in the middle of a competition. Finish this year using the rules with which the match started. Money is involved, so this is not just an informal match people shoot for bragging rights. If necessary, change the rules next year and let people decide then whether or not they want to participate with the new set of rules.

Things can get real messy when money is involved.
Click to expand...
You have a good point there, Thanks for bringing it up..
 
JimB said:
There is no ammo shortage, there are only unprepared folks too cheap to pay the price for their lack of preparation.
Click to expand...
You can count me among them.

There is prepared, and there is prepared. I shoot a lot of calibers and have 1, 2 or 3K each so by most standards I would call myself prepared. But prepared to start regular competition is another thing entirely, and yes there is an ammo shortage. Isn't that what you "prepared" for?
 
Flashpoint said:
You can count me among them.

There is prepared, and there is prepared. I shoot a lot of calibers and have 1, 2 or 3K each so by most standards I would call myself prepared. But prepared to start regular competition is another thing entirely, and yes there is an ammo shortage. Isn't that what you "prepared" for?
Click to expand...

I just bought when it was cheap cause I knew it wouldn’t always be cheap. Politics, disasters, regulation, stupid stuff anywhere in the world was going to drive up prices. I wasn’t really preparing for a shortage so much as preparing for the inevitable stupidity of mankind to reassert itself.
 
Copper and brass prices are expected to have large increases in October based on purchases in the US during the Wuhan Chinese Flu. Ammo manufacturing prices will increase which will also reflect the percentage of markup from the distributor and the stores.

My son-in-law was at our house this weekend and runs the shipping and receiving department for a Dick’s Sporting Goods store. His store has not seen any 22LR in 6 months and very little 9mm. They had a one month shipment of 8 boxes of 9mm that he can recall.
 
NKD said:
IMO, I think they should just add new .22 division.

People with 9mm shoot against people with 9mm.
.22 vs .22, etc.


Hard to quantify it. Zero recoil helps the .22, but maybe it's hard to reload compared to 9mm. Lots of considerations.
Click to expand...
This is what I would do. Just run more sections for 22lr. It's fair to those who can and want to shoot 9mm while still being understanding and courteous of those who aren't so lucky in their preps. No need to reinvent the wheel. If it's a big enough thing to affect competition attendance, more 22lr sections should be an effective way to give more people a better chance to attend.
 
Looks like 22lr is just about gone also. Just checked on Ammo Seek and even cheap Federals are going for $80 for the 525 round boxes. That's just crazy !!!
 
  • Wow
Reactions: Me.
Lager said:
Looks like 22lr is just about gone also. Just checked on Ammo Seek and even cheap Federals are going for $80 for the 525 round boxes. That's just crazy !!!
Click to expand...
We always have ammo at FAIR prices here at all of our ZSA/USA matches for our shooters. We DO NOT sell to take home, we sell what you need for the matches. Many of our regulars are using their .223/5.56 on the longer distance stages, and using .22 LR on the closer distance stages during our rifle matches, and many are using .22LR PCC's and .22 conversions on their pistols during our pistol matches. We are always doing all we can to everyone having SAFE FUN with their freedom pill dispensers!!!
 
Lager said:
Everyone has got some good opinions but here is the problem. In this club, the shooters are actually competing for the end of year total score. This means, the highest scoring shooter at the end of year will actually win a good chunk of money.
Click to expand...

Not trying to be a dick here, but If I'm a real competitive shooter, and have a good chance of winning a good chunk of money, ammo would be the least of my problems. Most people that shoot at matches, especially the same place, usually know around about what the round counts will be yes? Now, take that, multiplied by how many matches there will/may be, and make damn sure you're covered. If I was in this deal, I can assure you I would have enough centerfire ammo for the year, and would not be cool with the 22 deal at all. Either everyone shoot's centerfire, or 22, no mixing. Like someone above said, when money is involved, and it turns out to be a good chunk of money, this will wind up going over like a lead balloon.
 
Stick Man said:
Not trying to be a dick here, but If I'm a real competitive shooter, and have a good chance of winning a good chunk of money, ammo would be the least of my problems. Most people that shoot at matches, especially the same place, usually know around about what the round counts will be yes? Now, take that, multiplied by how many matches there will/may be, and make damn sure you're covered. If I was in this deal, I can assure you I would have enough centerfire ammo for the year, and would not be cool with the 22 deal at all. Either everyone shoot's centerfire, or 22, no mixing. Like someone above said, when money is involved, and it turns out to be a good chunk of money, this will wind up going over like a lead balloon.
Click to expand...
I value your opinion and your thoughts have some good points. But, At this time the year is about over and the season has ended. I just wonder whats going to happen next year since I cant see any changes that will help the ammo shortage problem and many clubs count on attendance to help finance the land/ club.
 
Last edited:
Lager said:
I value your opinion and your thoughts have some good points. But, At this time the year is about over and the season has ended. I just wonder whats going to happen next year since I cant see any changes that will help the ammo shortage problem and many clubs count on attendance to help finance the land/ club.
Click to expand...
You are correct, most people have NO IDEA what it costs to set up and run a range. Clubs have the advantage of many members paying yearly dues and occasionally they have repair assessments that all members contribute to. Some of us have built what we have out of pocket with alot of sweat and tears and blisters, and YES, the attendance at matches is what keeps it going. So if some ranges are doing what they can to keep people coming out to shoot, please understand that, and if some of you only want to shoot your preferred sport in your favorite division and caliber, all the best to you. No one is happy with what is happening to the sport we all love, so let's band together and do what we can to keep everyone having FUN while being SAFE enjoying our 2nd Amendment.
 
Lager said:
I value your opinion and your thoughts have some good points. But, At this time the year is about over and the season has ended. I just wonder whats going to happen next year since I cant see any changes that will help the ammo shortage problem and many clubs count on attendance to help finance the land/ club.
Click to expand...

Ok, so the season is over, and you're trying to figure something out for next year, correct? How about this. You have two different classes, a centerfire class, and a rimfire. If you have a lot more in the rimfire, that's the class that's competing for the larger chunk of money. If there is enough centerfire competitors, they compete for whatever money there is for them. If I may ask, where does the chunk of money come from? Is it from entry fee's and sponsors, sale's from stuff from the club or sponsor's, etc. I think I would reach out to all the shooter's who are competitor's, and talk it over with them, and see who will be able to shoot what. You may wind up with your answer before even having to try and come up with a master plan.
 
It may be time to get back to the basics and the old fashioned style of shooting.. :)

The Creedmoor International Rifle Match 1874
The Irish International Shooting team arrived in New York on the 16th of September and proceeded to “take in the sights”, which was understandable, before some practice at the Creedmoor range. On September 26th they presented themselves for the match with confidence and in high sprits. The crowds that day were reported to be between 5,000 and 10,000 strong, which showed the huge support already growing for the fledgling sport in America.

The course of fire was 15 shots to each man at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. Unfortunately, the details of each mans scores at the individual distances have been lost to time but we do know that the Americans were well ahead after the 800 yard shoot. The Irish then caught up after the 900 yard and finished the 1000 yard shoot ahead by 1 point. The Americans still had one man left to shoot and it came down to his very last shot with which he scored a 4 giving the American team the win over the Irish by 3 points. The Americans were delighted with the result and the Irish were reported to have been graceful in defeat.

The following is a list of the members of both teams and their overall scores.


Creedmoor International Rifle Match 1874
America Ireland
Henry Fulton 171 John Rigby 163
G.W. Yale 162 J.B. Hamilton 160
John Bodine 158 James Wilson 160
Colonel Gildersleeve 155 J.K. Milner 154
L.L. Hepburn 149 Edmund Johnson 150
T.S. Dakin 139 Captain Walker 144
Grand Total 934 Grand Total 931


So the stage had been set, in 1874 Ireland and America had competed against each other in the first ever international long range shooting match. It is a fantastic piece of history between our two countries and you would be forgiven for thinking that that was it. But of course that was not it. The Americans, revelling in their new found roll as International Shooting Champions and grateful to the Irish for bringing the opportunity to there door, felt obliged to return the favour and challenged the Irish riflemen to a return match to be held in 1875 on Dollymount Strand in Dublin. The Irish, egger to reclaim the title and to continue this new found shooting tradition with their American cousins, jumped at the opportunity and accepted the challenge.
 
Stick Man said:
Ok, so the season is over, and you're trying to figure something out for next year, correct? How about this. You have two different classes, a centerfire class, and a rimfire. If you have a lot more in the rimfire, that's the class that's competing for the larger chunk of money. If there is enough centerfire competitors, they compete for whatever money there is for them. If I may ask, where does the chunk of money come from? Is it from entry fee's and sponsors, sale's from stuff from the club or sponsor's, etc. I think I would reach out to all the shooter's who are competitor's, and talk it over with them, and see who will be able to shoot what. You may wind up with your answer before even having to try and come up with a master plan.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply,, luckily I don't have to make any of those decisions.. IM going to leave all that up to the match directors but I can tell you , I don't envy them. Personally, I think I'm going to hold off this year and just see what happens with the ammo situation. Ive been competing for the past 30 years so its not really a whole lot of fun anymore. Last year when ammo was available, sometimes I just didn't feel like shooting but I would go to the match anyways to help with scoring and resetting targets ( which I noticed that a lot of folks are allergic to or something) and just hang out with old friends and tell them how much they suck at shooting .
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom