John Travis said:
JMBs last employer was Winchester. After that debacle he was never again an employee of a gun manufacturer. He was an independent contract who had a exclusive agreement with FN and Colt which the Browning Bros gave exclusive rights to produce pistols designed by JMB in exclusive territories. Colt and FN agreed to protect the patients in the others territory. This is detailed in R Blakes Stevens The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol.
John Travis said:
It's hardly surprising that there are European P35s rollmarked as Browning pistols. FN Herstal is in the business of selling guns. If a shipment is requested with a BHP roll mark, that's what they'll get. The customer is always right, even in Europe.
The Browning name and that rollmark stating Browning's Patent Depose has been on the guns which became the BHP from day one. If you look back some of the earliest pistols for the French Trials 1922, they are in the Browning Museum in Utah show this roll mark. It had nothing to do with what someone requested. It was documentation of the origins of the pistol. Of course it makes sense because JMB was working directly on the pistol until his death in 1926. At the time the pistol in development was still called the Grand Rendement.
Saive picked up the ball and ran with it after JMBs death. By 1928 the 17 year patent protection granted to Colt on the 1911 had expired. So Saive integrated the the 1911 take down system into the Grand Rendement. That gun for contractual reason and out of respect for JMB was called the Browning Model 1928. The Great Depression killed production of this gun and by the time the Depression was over only about 2500 were left.
Saive continued to refine the pistol and by 1934 it was ready for production in form familiar to us today. It was called the High Power pistol and it still bore the Browning's Patent Depose rollmark. The pistol did not get the P35 designation until May of 1935 when the Belgians not the French, who originally contracted for its development, adopted it. It was known as the Browning's P35 High Power often referred to as the P-35. FNs contractual obligations with Browning Bros Arms in Utah and their respect for JMB kept his name associated with the pistol. These were known as the FN Browning Model 1935 GP or Grand Puissance. Some later runs of the pistol have different rollmarks. For example the FN rollmarked pistol like the SFS models which were marketed to the US make no mention of Browning on the rollmark. Many contract guns had varying rollmarks depending on time of production. This does not take away from the original designation and naming of the pistol. IMHO
John Travis said:
Browning marked P35s are highly sought after there the same way that Nazi or Belgian High Powers command a premium here. The official designation is P35, regardless. We refer to Colt's Government Model as the 1911, even though it's technically incorrect on two levels.
Way back in the early 60s, my father was an engineer for Western Electric. In some sort of "Exchange of Ideas/Technology" program, a German engineer from West Berlin wound up working closely with him. He was also former Wehrmacht and gun enthusiast. My father...US Army veteran of the ETO and gun enthusiast, and inevitably, the two former enemies became friends though they spoke little of the war.
He and his wife were invited to supper and the talk turned to guns. The collection came out, and when Herr whatever the hell his name was spied the Nazi P35, he picked it up and announced proudly with a heavy German accent that he had a Browning P35. It was his pride and joy.
And while there 's no doubt that the Belgians had no problem in honoring Browning by attaching his name to their products, the original reason for calling it the Browning High Power for American markets was primarily a marketing strategy. It still is.
Poor Dieudonne. He did all the grunt work and Browning gets the glory.
Interesting story. Yes there were a fair amount of Browning P35s that were brought back from WWII. They were the only side arm to serve on both sides of the war as an issued weapon. The Germans designated it the Pistole 640(b) IIRC. They made some small production changes like the removal of the magazine disconnect. As a side note the Nazi proofed guns are some of the worst guns ever produced at Liege. The urban myth was that the forced Belgian labor at Liege sabotaged the pistols which shotty workmanship. Others believe it was simply the speed of production during occupation that produced poor quality guns. This does not take away from their collectability but they are not as refined as their pre and post war brethren.
As far as all Belgian BHPs being more sought after I personally believe that it is something that owners and sellers of older pistols have talked up to improve the value of their guns. There were several changes in production methods and design over the years which makes a difference in the guns but for me the main attraction of the older BHPs is the blueing. The all Belgian designation gets really fuzy post 1972-1974 but that is a story for a different thread because technically all BHPs are made in Belgium.
Again I disagree that the "Browning" designation is a pure US market thing. His name was just as power a marketing tool in Europe as it was in the States. This is why FN had the agreement with JMB and Colt. As I stated in my first response to you marketing played a huge part but the patient and respect also factored in.
I agree 100% Dieudonne Saive does not get the credit he deserves.
Great discussion I enjoyed it.
