Are oils getting better, or were we lied to all along, or ?

Jayne

Jayne

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Had the 60k service done on my RAV4 (too many projects going on to get into car servicing again) and there were a bunch of "check and replace if necessary" fluids like the transmission fluid, transfer case, axles, etc. I expected them to come back with a laundry list of over-priced oil changes, but instead they came back with "it's all good, have a nice day".

I seem to recall on my old 4runner and my wranglers that there were pretty rigid service intervals for all the fluids, none of this "check and replace if necessary" stuff.

How do they 'check' the fluids? There is no explicit "change the XYZ" fluid in the manual at all other than engine oil. Are they really analyzing them somehow, or is it more of a "this looks burnt/dirty/whatever" so it's time to change it?

Have oils gotten better, or has the .gov cranked down on pollution so they're just running oils longer and who cares if the components fail, or were the service intervals we were given in the past just a scam?
 
Tranny fluid is "lifetime" on Rav4.
Most folks change it once. No substitute on the market, gotta buy the high priced Toyota factory fluid.

Not sure about the rest.
 
Manual transmission, transfer case, and differential gear oil doesn't need changed except in extreme circumstances at 60k miles.

Automatic transmission fluid/filter replacement intervals depend more on the daily use of the vehicle. Police cars, postal vehicles, etc.... are good examples of applications that require closer attention. Yes, lubricants have improved as tolerances have become tighter and tighter over the years.

Best thing to do is follow the owners manual. Some gear heads don't like that advice, but it's the correct advice in most cases.

Unless you drive in extreme environments, run very high mileages per year, or run your vehicle harder than the norm, I'd recommend changing the engine oil/filter twice a year, once in the spring, and once in the fall.
 
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From my anecdotal experience they're getting better. I remember working on cars as a kid and having to scrape out mounds of crud and buildup that I just don't see in anything now.
 
Oil and lubricants have got better, and engines have too. Better machining, tighter tolerances, better materials. Combined with modern, cleaner oils means that with care, most modern cars don't need to be serviced as often as they once did, and they will typically last longer too.
 
When I bought my Tacoma and the extended service agreement, I specifically specified that I wanted the service done according to the "Extreme or Special Condition Schedule" thats listed in the service manual.

ServiceP1.jpg

This one I found online from a Prius but gives you a idea. My guess is there is a similar one for the RAV4.

When I has my 1st service done, I had asked them change the oil, not because it needed but because of the potential for manufacturing contamination that I had read about with the Tacomas, however they said they didn't need to because they change the oil and basically do a 0 miles service when they sell it since that particular dealership has a lifetime powertrain warranty.

My 2017 Tacoma doesn't even have a dipstick to check the transmission fluid, so they seem pretty confident that it doesn't need any service, unless you get it heated up and cook it, should be fine.

Our ambulances and SUVs at work are on a 4000/ mile service schedule...if you find something that is on a harder use cycle vs someone's private vehicle, I'd be impressed.
 
NCMedic said:
When I bought my Tacoma and the extended service agreement, I specifically specified that I wanted the service done according to the "Extreme or Special Condition Schedule" thats listed in the service manual.

View attachment 46099

This one I found online from a Prius but gives you a idea. My guess is there is a similar one for the RAV4.

When I has my 1st service done, I had asked them change the oil, not because it needed but because of the potential for manufacturing contamination that I had read about with the Tacomas, however they said they didn't need to because they change the oil and basically do a 0 miles service when they sell it since that particular dealership has a lifetime powertrain warranty.

My 2017 Tacoma doesn't even have a dipstick to check the transmission fluid, so they seem pretty confident that it doesn't need any service, unless you get it heated up and cook it, should be fine.

Our ambulances and SUVs at work are on a 4000/ mile service schedule...if you find something that is on a harder use cycle vs someone's private vehicle, I'd be impressed.
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I'm in complete agreement with you on the hard use that first responder vehicles get. My last brush truck, at 80K miles, rattled and used oil like you'd expect a POV to at 200K.

The newer one seems to be holding up to it better. 50K miles and no major issues, aside from cam sensors and tire sensors going bad.
 
Slacker said:
Tranny fluid is "lifetime" on Rav4.
Most folks change it once. No substitute on the market, gotta buy the high priced Toyota factory fluid.

Not sure about the rest.
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Valvoline Maxlife should.... be compliant to the Toyota ATF. It's not cheap either, but cheaper than the Toyota WS. I haven't had any problems in about 25k (knock on wood).

Oils and fluids are better than what they were.... but they still need to be changed as needed. My transmission Dispstick states something about the factory fluid being lifetime fluid and should never have to be changed. At 120k.... the color of the fluid said otherwise.

Sometimes.... you can go the life of the vehicle (200+k) without changing the coolant, atf, gear oil, etc. Sometimes you will regret not changing it... corroded/clogged heater cores, water pumps, clogged valve bodies, burnt pinion bearings.... etc. I've seen some circumstances in which power steer steering fluid has gone bad. It happens...... However, a majority of the fluids other than engine oil... you may only have to change once or twice in the life of a vehicle. I've seen some Hondas in which the transmission went south around 250k, if someone had at least drained the pan a couple of times.... that transmission would have lasted a good while longer.
 
My mechanic tells changing ATF is good, if you do it regular. But you’ll regret changing ATF after ~100k miles... just let it ride he says. He ‘splained it to me but he couldn’t understand it for me. Something about disturbing old seals... maybe one of our wrenches can chime in and correct me?
 
Yeah the oils are definitely getting better. If you look at the API Service rating, I think we’re currently at SN. They started out at SA and then as time has progressed and standards for motor oil raised then the “S” rating has increased.


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The newer oils are better for newer cars but not so good for old ones. Most new oils contain very little zinc which older engines that run non roller cams and lifters need to prevent cam lobe and lifter wear. This is just the simplest way I could put it as it gets much more detailed and I am tired of typing.
 
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Catfish said:
My mechanic tells changing ATF is good, if you do it regular. But you’ll regret changing ATF after ~100k miles... just let it ride he says. He ‘splained it to me but he couldn’t understand it for me. Something about disturbing old seals... maybe one of our wrenches can chime in and correct me?
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The hydraulic fluid (ATF) breaks down and can't provide the lubrication it once did. So it starts to wear and small bits of trash get embedded on the clutches and wear in to the clutches. When you do a flush you run the high risk of flushing this debris out. Now the clutches have less surface area to clamp on to. The same trash gets in the seals and can tear them from the inside out. Burnt fluid just acclerates this process.
 
Djstorm100 said:
The hydraulic fluid (ATF) breaks down and can't provide the lubrication it once did. So it starts to wear and small bits of trash get embedded on the clutches and wear in to the clutches. When you do a flush you run the high risk of flushing this debris out. Now the clutches have less surface area to clamp on to. The same trash gets in the seals and can tear them from the inside out. Burnt fluid just acclerates this process.
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The same trash also gets flushed into the transmission cooler ultimately resulting in a clogged cooler. That will destroy an automatic transmission in no time at all.
 
My 16 F150 says for life on the trans fluid but I will be changing the filter and the fluid that comes out of the pan as soon as it hits about 50k. I tow mainly during the summer, a boat to the lake not super far and then a 20 ft enclosed that would be about 5-6k when we get 4 wheeling.
I know it wont do all of the fluid with this method but it should get a decent bit and then the filter will be clean to catch more contaminates as well.
 
Jeep recommends 9000mi on the initial break in oil on new Jeep Wranglers. I got paranoid and changed it at 6000, lol.
 
I don't trust those long term oil changes...Alot of manufactures are running high oil temps for emission. I use to build motors and drag race these were still streetable cars just not nearly as streetable, and only done at the track. Side note Ive worked in hydrualics for 6 years at CAT and my Dad and I own a 289 Skid Steer. The manual cause for 200 hours and then change the final drive gear oil (planetary gear set that drives the tracks) I changed it at 15 hours and got fine debris out. All engines are ran at the factory and cleaned out..but like any man made product there are cars that are built on Mondays and Fridays. I run my cars are 1,000-2,000 miles while change the load on the motor through gear section and rpm. Change the oil and I'll put a bottle of zinc for added measure.


Honda have OK transmission but I know my 5th gen Civic transmission is on the weak side for it's over all design. I literally change the fluid out every 30k. It's only 3 quarts as there is not drain pan like older cars. Pop the plug out, 3 quarts come out, pour 3 quarts in. This is one of the few cars you check the level with the motor off, like you do the oil. Every change since 90k has looked as clean as the day I put the oil in it. Oil is cheap.
 
Djstorm100 said:
I don't trust those long term oil changes...Alot of manufactures are running high oil temps for emission. I use to build motors and drag race these were still streetable cars just not nearly as streetable, and only done at the track. Side note Ive worked in hydrualics for 6 years at CAT and my Dad and I own a 289 Skid Steer. The manual cause for 200 hours and then change the final drive gear oil (planetary gear set that drives the tracks) I changed it at 15 hours and got fine debris out. All engines are ran at the factory and cleaned out..but like any man made product there are cars that are built on Mondays and Fridays. I run my cars are 1,000-2,000 miles while change the load on the motor through gear section and rpm. Change the oil and I'll put a bottle of zinc for added measure.


Honda have OK transmission but I know my 5th gen Civic transmission is on the weak side for it's over all design. I literally change the fluid out every 30k. It's only 3 quarts as there is not drain pan like older cars. Pop the plug out, 3 quarts come out, pour 3 quarts in. This is one of the few cars you check the level with the motor off, like you do the oil. Every change since 90k has looked as clean as the day I put the oil in it. Oil is cheap.
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You ain’t kidding about high temps. New transmissions run in the 190-210 range as normal. Fords response to temps are if you get the 6r80 in my truck to 250 you can run it there for about 30 minutes with zero issues.
The engine temp is about 200. My edge programmer has gauges on it and I believe it shows cylinder head temp which is running about 215-232
 
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