Arrest made in tactical training shooting that left victim paralyzed, cops say

So these paintball glocks are indistinguishable from the real thing in looks and weight? That's hard to believe.

uh, found one. So, yeah, don't put me on the Jury.

glock_19_6mm_pistol_3_large.jpg


wait, does look like they make one without the orange. Can't imagine the weight is even close.
 
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ugggh.....that's horrible.

I think if I ever take a class like that, I'd want the entire course content to be simunition, with no switching between live and paint.

Thats not what happened at all.

This is the quote
After returning from lunch, Saylor never secured his Glock pistol in the designated lockers, and never retrieved his assigned simunition gun before beginning the next scenario,”

So Saylor bypassed all the safety steps in place, and the staff never did a lineup to verify.

Oh and before anyone jumps on the qualification bandwagon the training group was https://www.rockwelltactical.com/
 
So these paintball glocks are indistinguishable from the real thing in looks and weight? That's hard to believe.

uh, found one. So, yeah, don't put me on the Jury.

glock_19_6mm_pistol_3_large.jpg


wait, does look like they make one without the orange. Can't imagine the weight is even close.

Those are airsoft guns.

Simunition guns are real guns with conversions, if I am not mistaken.
 
Can't help but think that two of those charges are bogus. Not assault and unless the shooter was outside of the building shooting in not firing into occupied property.

Horrible situation and a couple of people just got a new defendant for life.
 
Can't help but think that two of those charges are bogus. Not assault and unless the shooter was outside of the building shooting in not firing into occupied property.

Horrible situation and a couple of people just got a new defendant for life.

Is your analysis based on PA law or NC law? Its gets tricky quickly
 
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Odd that they would be able to levy those charges. I would think intent would be an element that would need to be proven. Doesn't seem like it's there, at least from the information that is being put out.

In either case, that situation is an absolute tragedy. As an instructor I couldn't imagine being responsible for someone sustaining such crippling injury when they were just looking to better prepare themselves.
 
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Was that a three Martini lunch? I find it hard to believe that somebody can forget that he is still using his real gun?
 
Was that a three Martini lunch? I find it hard to believe that somebody can forget that he is still using his real gun?

It happens entirely too often and can typically be traced to arrogant "instructors" believing they know more than they actually do and not following simple, well established safety protocol for reality based training sessions.

Here is another tragic and preventable example:
https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/eye-...ill-serve-no-jail-time-0RA2hz8L3EyMlftBOg47Tw

If you are an instructor, conducting this type of training, and can't tell the difference between live ammo and non-lethal training ammunition, you have no business in that position.
 
It happens entirely too often and can typically be traced to arrogant "instructors" believing they know more than they actually do and not following simple, well established safety protocol for reality based training sessions.

Here is another tragic and preventable example:
https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/eye-...ill-serve-no-jail-time-0RA2hz8L3EyMlftBOg47Tw

If you are an instructor, conducting this type of training, and can't tell the difference between live ammo and non-lethal training ammunition, you have no business in that position.
Complacency kills.
 
It happens entirely too often and can typically be traced to arrogant "instructors" believing they know more than they actually do and not following simple, well established safety protocol for reality based training sessions.

Here is another tragic and preventable example:
https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/eye-...ill-serve-no-jail-time-0RA2hz8L3EyMlftBOg47Tw

If you are an instructor, conducting this type of training, and can't tell the difference between live ammo and non-lethal training ammunition, you have no business in that position.

Dang. I wonder if it was a .38 wadcutter? To the ignorant they look..... different (edit: especially if old and patina'd). So much dumb in this story. But, as you note, stunning arrogance.

download.jpg
 
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It happens entirely too often and can typically be traced to arrogant "instructors" believing they know more than they actually do and not following simple, well established safety protocol for reality based training sessions.

Here is another tragic and preventable example:
https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/eye-...ill-serve-no-jail-time-0RA2hz8L3EyMlftBOg47Tw

If you are an instructor, conducting this type of training, and can't tell the difference between live ammo and non-lethal training ammunition, you have no business in that position.

Came to post this.

Cop KILLS woman, pleas out for probation.

Wonder if the non-officer will get a plea bargain
 
I am going to be the fly in the ointment here. We all talk about safety and the "rules" of firearm safety.


In my day the rules were 4 simple rules.

  1. All guns are always loaded
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target
  4. Identify your target, and what is behind it


In todays world that has been sanitized to read like this



  1. 1. always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction.


    2. treat all firearms as if they were loaded.


    3. keep your trigger finger outside the guard and off of the trigger until you are ready to fire.


    4. be certain of your target, your line of fire, and what lies beyond your target.


    5. always wear appropriate eye and ear protection when shooting and maintaining your firearm.




    Same general theme, different order with the addition of one for the safety of the shooter.



    If you follow these rules then things will be pretty safe so my question now is how can you follow these rules(specifically no 2 in the first set and the more sanitized version no 1 in the second set) and engage in a type of training that requires you to violate that rule. I have often given thought to that with regard to playing paint ball. Seems like fun (although I have never tried it) but it violates that rule.

    I am gonna go get my flame suit on and grab a bag of popcorn. I am sure it will be done in no time.

    And just for the record I am not trying to bust anybodies chops here I am asking a serious question.


 
I am going to be the fly in the ointment here. We all talk about safety and the "rules" of firearm safety.
In my day the rules were 4 simple rules.
  1. All guns are always loaded
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target
  4. Identify your target, and what is behind it
In todays world that has been sanitized to read like this

  1. 1. always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction.


    2. treat all firearms as if they were loaded.


    3. keep your trigger finger outside the guard and off of the trigger until you are ready to fire.


    4. be certain of your target, your line of fire, and what lies beyond your target.


    5. always wear appropriate eye and ear protection when shooting and maintaining your firearm.



    Same general theme, different order with the addition of one for the safety of the shooter.



    If you follow these rules then things will be pretty safe so my question now is how can you follow these rules(specifically no 2 in the first set and the more sanitized version no 1 in the second set) and engage in a type of training that requires you to violate that rule. I have often given thought to that with regard to playing paint ball. Seems like fun (although I have never tried it) but it violates that rule.

    I am gonna go get my flame suit on and grab a bag of popcorn. I am sure it will be done in no time.

    And just for the record I am not trying to bust anybodies chops here I am asking a serious question.

Yes. He broke all of these rules.

Don't think you are going to get too much of an argument!
 
I am going to be the fly in the ointment here. We all talk about safety and the "rules" of firearm safety.


In my day the rules were 4 simple rules.

  1. All guns are always loaded
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target
  4. Identify your target, and what is behind it


In todays world that has been sanitized to read like this



  1. 1. always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction.


    2. treat all firearms as if they were loaded.


    3. keep your trigger finger outside the guard and off of the trigger until you are ready to fire.


    4. be certain of your target, your line of fire, and what lies beyond your target.


    5. always wear appropriate eye and ear protection when shooting and maintaining your firearm.




    Same general theme, different order with the addition of one for the safety of the shooter.



    If you follow these rules then things will be pretty safe so my question now is how can you follow these rules(specifically no 2 in the first set and the more sanitized version no 1 in the second set) and engage in a type of training that requires you to violate that rule. I have often given thought to that with regard to playing paint ball. Seems like fun (although I have never tried it) but it violates that rule.

    I am gonna go get my flame suit on and grab a bag of popcorn. I am sure it will be done in no time.

    And just for the record I am not trying to bust anybodies chops here I am asking a serious question.

I think the biggest issue in the rules you posted is the word “firearm” there should not have been any actual “firearm” involved in this training scenario.
 
I think the biggest issue in the rules you posted is the word “firearm” there should not have been any actual “firearm” involved in this training scenario.

That right there is the key term. Not only should actual firearms not be used during any type of reality based training, but actual firearms and/or live ammo should not even be allowed to be present in the training area AT ALL. Now, will those training firearms be handled AS IF they were real firearms, other than the scenario dictates? They should be, just to reinforce good firearms handling. But, we do that with the understanding that these are in fact "training tools" being used, not firearms.
 
That right there is the key term. Not only should actual firearms not be used during any type of reality based training, but actual firearms and/or live ammo should not even be allowed to be present in the training area AT ALL. Now, will those training firearms be handled AS IF they were real firearms, other than the scenario dictates? They should be, just to reinforce good firearms handling. But, we do that with the understanding that these are in fact "training tools" being used, not firearms.
Simmunitions uses real firearms. You just change out the barrel and the magazine. I was an instructor and we used real Beretta M9s with sim barrels and real Mk18 rifles with sim uppers.

And Sim ammo is live ammo. It uses a primer to ignite propellant which forces a projectile down and out the barrel. Only, the projectile is made of soap instead of lead and copper. It could still kill you if you took one point blank to the eye ball...
 
Bottom line is this.

As a trainer you are 100% responsible for all elements of the training. no one else is. Laziness and assumptions do not fly. no amount of certification, past history, trust or understanding points to responsibility. All that needed to happen to fix this issue is a simple system of single focus on safety. This is why when I did force on force I had a process.

simple steps like a table to issue and turn in all gear solves this life threating issue.
You have to care more about the student then the dollar sign floating over there heads.
 
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Simmunitions uses real firearms. You just change out the barrel and the magazine. I was an instructor and we used real Beretta M9s with sim barrels and real Mk18 rifles with sim uppers.

And Sim ammo is live ammo. It uses a primer to ignite propellant which forces a projectile down and out the barrel. Only, the projectile is made of soap instead of lead and copper. It could still kill you if you took one point blank to the eye ball...
Save it for the semantics dome E.B.White
 
Complacency kills.
Absolutely. This situation is an example of why range nazis are the way they are, and why I stopped hating on them. If you let a safety procedure creep away from standard because the last 999 times you ran through it nothing bad happened, that 1000th time is gonna get you.
 
I find much agreement to all of the above, and is also one reason I have struggled with the efficacy of simunitions unless under >extreme< controlled situations. I.e. firearms that are specifically designated, color coded, and so forth. The "just swap out the barrel", concerns me. And again, I am sure that year after year millions of rounds of simunitions are used with absolutely no problem. But it is something that will always concern me. I am not a fan of pointing firearms at people or objects that you aren't willing to destroy regardless of what is loaded or not loaded in them.

At a point we also have to accept that firearms, though fun, are dangerous. Its just part and parcel. There have been cases of people being killed by blanks even if used incorrectly. And a common denominator in every single instance is "someone messed up". Complacency, as said above, kills. If you ever find yourself becoming too comfortable around a certain firearm, or performing routine actions with one, it is time to have a serious mental check about your actions.
 
I find much agreement to all of the above, and is also one reason I have struggled with the efficacy of simunitions unless under >extreme< controlled situations. I.e. firearms that are specifically designated, color coded, and so forth. The "just swap out the barrel", concerns me. And again, I am sure that year after year millions of rounds of simunitions are used with absolutely no problem. But it is something that will always concern me. I am not a fan of pointing firearms at people or objects that you aren't willing to destroy regardless of what is loaded or not loaded in them.

At a point we also have to accept that firearms, though fun, are dangerous. Its just part and parcel. There have been cases of people being killed by blanks even if used incorrectly. And a common denominator in every single instance is "someone messed up". Complacency, as said above, kills. If you ever find yourself becoming too comfortable around a certain firearm, or performing routine actions with one, it is time to have a serious mental check about your actions.

Agree and why I used airSoft and I painted the frames BLUE. Plus I controlled EVERY aspect of the training right down to what each person did, how they did it and where the action took place at.
 
Took the words right out of my mouth. Simple concepts are often the most difficult to grasp for some folks. *shrug*
Don't be mad at me for correcting you...

You can't say "real firearms and ammunition" shouldn't be allowed in the training area if you know exactly what sims are.

My point was that firearms are dangerous. And they are still dangerous when converted to fire sim rounds.

I am in agreement that the instructor messed up. He didn't follow policy. He was lax and didn't check his own weapon.

But don't blame the weapons or the training weapons when a instructor is the one who messed up...
 
Don't be mad at me for correcting you...

You can't say "real firearms and ammunition" shouldn't be allowed in the training area if you know exactly what sims are.

My point was that firearms are dangerous. And they are still dangerous when converted to fire sim rounds.

I am in agreement that the instructor messed up. He didn't follow policy. He was lax and didn't check his own weapon.

But don't blame the weapons or the training weapons when a instructor is the one who messed up...

The instructor is not the one being charged. The role player is.
 
The instructor is not the one being charged. The role player is.
The instructor messed up by not lining up every participant and checking their weapons, mags, and ammo before starting the next evolution of training...
 
The instructor messed up by not lining up every participant and checking their weapons, mags, and ammo before starting the next evolution of training...

True,
Thats what i have been saying the whole time. But in stage 1 of the criminal stage the instructor is not being charged at this time.

When it goes civil the two companies will be in hot water. The facility and the training group.
 
Don't be mad at me for correcting you....

Don’t be so arrogant to assume that I’m mad, nor that you corrected me on anything, as both of those points are incorrect.

Generally speaking, we were saying the same things, just from different perspectives. But, with your responses to me and others on this post it’s obvious that your ego requires you to be “right”, even if that means redefining what a firearm and ammunition capable of causing lethal wounds are. So be it, you be correct in your version of reality.

On a side note, your use of the term “sims” when referring to Non-Lethal Training Ammunition tells me all I need to know about your (lack of) expertise on the topic. There are several companies or manufacturers of NLTA, not just Simmunitions. UTM and Umarex also have NLTA options. But, what do I know, I’ve only facilitated a few hundred training evolutions in my time as an instructor.
 
Don’t be so arrogant to assume that I’m mad, nor that you corrected me on anything, as both of those points are incorrect.

Generally speaking, we were saying the same things, just from different perspectives. But, with your responses to me and others on this post it’s obvious that your ego requires you to be “right”, even if that means redefining what a firearm and ammunition capable of causing lethal wounds are. So be it, you be correct in your version of reality.

On a side note, your use of the term “sims” when referring to Non-Lethal Training Ammunition tells me all I need to know about your (lack of) expertise on the topic. There are several companies or manufacturers of NLTA, not just Simmunitions. UTM and Umarex also have NLTA options. But, what do I know, I’ve only facilitated a few hundred training evolutions in my time as an instructor.

You sound mad. Haha.

You can be right this time. There is no reason for this silly back and forth.

You absolutely do know more than me on this subject. You are correct on all points. I was wrong...
 
In my day the rules were 4 simple rules.

  1. All guns are always loaded
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target
  4. Identify your target, and what is behind it
Cooper's Gunsite Safety rules are infallible. We have them posted here in several places. IF observed you can have a safe experience.

Number 3 has been a problem. You can't watch Too Close.

Three is in jeopardy when people shoot faster than they can. We implore people here to shoot as fast as they can. Most shoot Faster than they can.
 
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