At what cost?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by chiefjason, Apr 4, 2020.

  1. chiefjason

    chiefjason Vendor and Leather Hack Vendor

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    A little thought experiment that I posted on FB.

    Are you helping a man if you save his body but destroy his....

    Soul
    Career
    Income
    Mental Health
    Self reliance
    Self esteem
    Self determination
    Well being
    Savings
    Mortgage
    Family
    Liberty
    Freedom
    Future

    There is a cost to everything. And there is a risk to everything. Are the people who don't understand risk creating such an aversion to taking any that it is costing us as much, or more, to avoid the risk? Is one damage so preferable to another? There will be a death toll associated to this risk aversion as well. You can count on that. And there may be generational repercussions for some families based on the financial disaster they will have to endure. Is the cure as bad as the disease?

    I get in a truck every day. I drive 500+ miles every day. I've had close calls and wrecks. I weigh the risk vs the reward, man up, and go to work because I have a family to support. The risk of not going is greater than the risk of going.

    We are stripping our fellow citizens of that choice. And I think it may have as dire consequences as allowing them to do their own risk assessment. Each day we strip away something from the list above and that comes at a cost to the individual.

    I'm seeing friends of mine getting financially pummeled. And I'm just not convinced it's worth it. The price isn't figured just yet. But it's not getting any cheaper with each passing day. At some point, this economy has got to get back up and running. And for a lot of folks, that simply cannot come fast enough.
     
  2. noway2

    noway2 Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    I assume you’re referring to the stay home directives. I have said from before they came about that we should look at nationally suspending much economic function, especially related to major cost drivers for the consumer and specifically debt payments. Rather than drive everyone into insolvency (and in this environment possibly kick off a civil war if you think Johnny Average shows been stocking up on guns and ammo is going to give up his house or business to a bunch of rich bankers over this) because it’s not a normal economic cycle. It’s a national disaster. Suspend things for three months, make sure those in need have food, let everyone get back on their feet and start back up. But no .... America is doing the stupid thing again.
     
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  3. concepthomes1

    concepthomes1 When do we start? Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I’m really torn about this whole “cure being worse than the disease” mindset.
    Even with this morning’s news that Walmart will start limiting capacity at all stores, I’m torn up.

    By doing this, Walmart will force buyers into the smaller footprint grocery stores, thereby increasing transmission risks off their property.

    They’ll also be forcing buyers to queue in long lines in the heat, potentially creating hazardous health situations not related to COVID-19. Now consider a terrorist wants to drive his truck into that large group of people waiting in line to buy groceries.

    Walmart’s decision is going to upend a grocery market that has seemingly stabilized over the last few days compared to mid-March.

    I just can’t help but consider we’re playing with fire here. Someone will snap and it won’t be a quiet snap.

    https://corporate.walmart.com/newsr...opping-process-to-encourage-social-distancing
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
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  4. LizardKing

    LizardKing Alright Alright Alright Charter Member Supporting Member

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    The wife is burying groceries to take to her parents this morning. She got to Wal-Mart at quarter til 7 and the line is already wrapped around the building... So now instead of people bunched up in the store they're bunched up in the parking lot... I'm not sure what the answer is honestly but I don't see how that policy change helped.
     
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  5. concepthomes1

    concepthomes1 When do we start? Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    What’s worse is Walmart’s decision to arbitrarily choose 20% as their capacity goal. One shopper per 1000 sq ft of space? Who even came up with that number? I’m really pissed at this today and it’s not even 7:15.
     
  6. Bailey Boat

    Bailey Boat Senior Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    Sheep, their trying to get us used to acting like sheep..... line up for your food and water, and what ever else they may have in mind....

    @chiefjason, I'll circle back and respond to your part later....
     
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  7. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Supporting Member

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    And the costs are not be shared by society either are they? Are the elected politicians still being paid 100% of their salaries? How about the teachers and administrators that are not working? Bus drivers? What about public offices that are closed? Are they being paid?

    What would happen if these groups had to take a 20% pay cut now? Or take some furlough time? Bet they might change their tune.

    It is easy to support an idea or action when there is zero downside risk for yourself.
     
  8. concepthomes1

    concepthomes1 When do we start? Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    If Congress had to take a pay reduction for this, which they should since they’re not at their job doing their job, all lockdowns would be lifted in days.
     
  9. Chdamn

    Chdamn Dungeon Master Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    To answer the original question I would say that unless you were asked to save that person’s life by that person then doing so to the detriment of anything on that list is wrong. Nobody asked you to get involved and “help” that person so what business is it to you.

    You can save their life and then walk away patting yourself on the back while that person is left to deal with the consequences of your actions.

    I subscribe to the idea that if you save a life then you are responsible for it for this exact reason. That is a concept that his been around for longer than most organized religion.

    With modern medicine being what it is this has become a question even more complex. How many times have we seen people’s physical life saved from traumatic brain injuries only to leave them mentally handicapped to the point they can’t even use a bathroom. Leaving them a financial and emotional burden on their families. If you were able to ask the person they were, would they want to be that burden or would they rather be dead?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  10. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Stock Market seems to be operating just Fine. Always follow the money.....always.
     
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  11. Bailey Boat

    Bailey Boat Senior Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    The market will eventually bounce back to "normal" but "we" never will.....
     
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  12. chiefjason

    chiefjason Vendor and Leather Hack Vendor

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    That kinda cuts to the root. As a society, yeah we probably come back. As individuals, not so much. And that’s fine when individuals are making their own choices. But it’s the Gov picking the winners and losers. And the individuals that are suffering for it.

    This makes a great general question. But mine is more specific to our current situation. It’s not sustainable. No matter how much fear is involved. At some point we gotta be cut loose. And imo NC jumped the gun on starting this. With too much time shut down on the front end.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  13. Red Marley

    Red Marley Authorized person Charter Member Supporting Member

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    What @chiefjason said. I am certain this pandemic could be managed in ways that would not destroy the economy and contravene individual freedom and self-worth - or at the very least minimize the damage. I fear the economic and social destruction much more than the potential for illness, and I'm in the group most susceptible to it. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a dry run for full-on socialism. I believe the President is looking for ways to restore a degree of normalcy but virtually all of government (including state and local) is against it; they're enjoying their power too much.
     
  14. Geezer

    Geezer Mama Tried Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    We were having a washer and dryer delivered this morning so I went to Walmart early. They open here at 7AM. I got there at about 6:55 and there was a long line of people waiting for the store to open. Actually, there weren't that many people but 6 feet apart made it look like a long line. It was overcast this morning and it was still gray outside with a light, cool breeze.

    As I walked up to take my place at the end of the line, I was truly saddened at what I saw. Everyone was looking straight ahead, no one was saying a word, faces showed no expression. Only one person was looking at their phone. When the line started moving it hit me that it reminded me of some of the German death camp pictures I have seen.

    I got my things and got out in about 20 minutes. When I got home I told my wife that I had just seen something that was very sad and scary. How much more can we take? How much more will they try to push us? There will be a breaking point, or, at least I think there will be a breaking point. I'm honestly surprised it has gone this far.
     
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  15. Chdamn

    Chdamn Dungeon Master Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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  16. concepthomes1

    concepthomes1 When do we start? Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    How do we break local/state/federal governments’ death grip on our ways of life?

    Rhetorical question here, please don’t truthfully answer in public.
     
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  17. Jeppo

    Jeppo Loves Burt Gummer to a fault! Staff Member Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    @Geezer I think you’re exaggerating. ;)

     
  18. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    6 on 1....looks about right...normal that is.
     
  19. Bailey Boat

    Bailey Boat Senior Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    Same way we have always done, obey what you feel like and ignore everything else, it's worked for years.....
     
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  20. charliesgrave

    charliesgrave cosmoline enthusiast Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    That's a bit over dramatic.

    Having to stand in line at a store reminds you of the time an entire ethnic group was targeted for extermination, had their property seized, were rounded up, shipped off to death camps where they were starved and beaten and eventually executed by gas or firing squad and had their remains burned in huge ovens?
     
  21. fieldgrade

    fieldgrade resident crank Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    No need to take it personally.
     
  22. concepthomes1

    concepthomes1 When do we start? Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    It’s not over dramatic. It’s his personal observation and opinion. Geez, loosen your granny panties.
     
  23. Geezer

    Geezer Mama Tried Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Maybe it was over dramatic, maybe not. But, that's the first thing that came to my mind. Those people were targeted, had their rights taken away and, met an awful end. We, as Americans are being targeted, having our rights slowly taken away and, I don't like the looks of where we are headed.
     
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  24. random

    random Active Member

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    I don't agree. As individuals, as always, it will be an individual issue - I know my family will be fine. But I think the real damage is to society.
    This is going to change society in ways we can't even begin to predict.
    My grandmother raised children through WWI and the Great Depression, my parents grew up through the Depression and survived WWII (One in England and the other serving under Patton) - I can't begin to imagine what they would say about how our nation is dealing with this. Probably good they're not here to see it.
     
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  25. chiefjason

    chiefjason Vendor and Leather Hack Vendor

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    My point is this will break some people that would have otherwise been fine. And my issue with that is the Gov mandates are a big part of the issue. I'm not big on one size fits all decision making. It works for some, fits poorly for most, and screws as many as it fits. We deserve better leadership than that on the state and local levels. Unfortunately, that is sorely lacking. And it's replaced by knee jerk, feel good decision making. It feels like this is based on the premise that Gov can do whatever it wants, force you to do "what's best for you", and when it's over they will make folks whole. It's never going to work like that. And some folks and families won't survive to see any help that is offered.

    And I'm not saying society will be the same. There will be changes for good and bad. But as long as Gov does not hinder the recovery, we will bounce back. Like above, some folks won't make it there and some folks will get left behind on the bounce.
     
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  26. B00ger

    B00ger Bull headed and opinionated but really loves you. Charter Member

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    If you aren’t selling stocks, then the market coming back will be good.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  27. Lafayette Gregory

    Lafayette Gregory Les-ter not Ly-Chester

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    Maybe its just nature doing its job. I am sure some will never recoup mwhat they have lost. Then others, and that would be most of us, wil dust off our shirts and get to going again looking to make prosperity ours again. Struggled from the day I married in 1978. Worked hard- The wife ad I both making low wages for a thigh degree professional woman and me a skilled degree welder. I lost everything in penny stocks black Friday in the late 1987. I lost again when after I had invested what I had recouped, into my home. A loan at 15% interest and all my equity was lost in the devalued recession. Had to take cash to the closing just to get out from under the house. Should have just let the bank have it but I thought I was doing the right thing at the time. Since the early 1990 I have learned my lessons and avoided bad mistakes. A few losses here and there but without risk no gains.
    We will regain our position financially. It will be tough for a while, we will learn important lessons, we will grow and then prosper again.
    Right now we all need to do our part to NOT spread this disease. DO NOT LISTEN TO TH POLITICAL TALKING HEADS!!! As much as Trump it trying to make it one---This is not a political issue. Dig deeper and search for science and from many sources not just one talking head on TV. Stay at home folks, Keep your distance, take the money and use it to survive and hopefully some more will come along soon. Work from home - make something and sell it on ebay etc//// Do what you have to legally to survive. Don't be tempted by crime, it could cost your family everything and you your life. We will get through this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
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  28. DrScaryGuy

    DrScaryGuy Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    And yet, I could link you to all sorts of articles where government agents state that if you break the rules that are in place for your protection, you'll be arrested and sent to a place that is MUCH more dangerous than being within 6ft of your live-in spouse in a public place.
     
  29. 12151791

    12151791 schadenfreude | \ ˈshä-dᵊn-ˌfrȯi-də Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Not quite death camp lines but soup lines
    upload_2020-4-4_21-28-36.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  30. wsfiredude

    wsfiredude Can't starve us out; Can't make us run Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Agree 100%.

    This is being used as a test run to see how far they can push and how much folks will accept.
     
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  31. JimB

    JimB Picking it up slowly. Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    The world is not as we would have it, just take that for granted and stop looking back, there is no opportunity in the past.

    Opportunity is like merging into traffic at high speed. You look for the opening as early as possible and you accelerate into it. I had a crazy week and ended it spending 18 hours staring at the computer yesterday, right now my back hurts and I have a migraine from it, I had to forgo planning for my wife’s birthday this week, but with a little luck I squeezed into a space that will help us come out of this better than we went in. I already see my next merge, or rather a drunk semi is merging into me and I need to make space without getting bumped off the road, but I’m taking tomorrow off for some rest.
     
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  32. Grits

    Grits I'm a Dirt Bag. Charter Life Member

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    Just one question.

    What happens next year when a outbreak occurs?



    Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
     
  33. Long_Hunter

    Long_Hunter Embrace the Suck Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    ...all just my worthless opinion...

    The market is an illusion...had its worst week and best week back to back. Really?
    I am a bit old-fashioned and very opinionated when it comes to "money" and things of value...I need to be able to touch it for it to be real and of physical value...when we came off the gold standard our "money" ceased to be real and became simple traders paper.

    The FED told banks to use their reserves to free up liquidity for loans...what do they have left when that is gone?

    Unemployment is headed somewhere that can flat out wreck our society, and roll out a socialist red carpet welcome wagon.

    If this current virus runs it course over the next few months, the markets will bounce back and many will make a killing in that action...if the virus ebbs and flows, or comes back in a second wave after the all clear is sounded and before a vaccine is fully developed, what then?

    What happens when one of the H5 flu strains mutates into efficient human to human transmission with a 60% mortality rate?

    A lot of doom and gloom out there...I sincerely hope and pray that this outbreak passes in the next 60 days...that we achieve some type of herd immunity...and that my grandchildren can play with other kids again.

    ...and I do worry about what our country looks like on the other side...Mark Cuban called it "America 2.0", and I don't like the sound of that.
     
  34. noway2

    noway2 Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    I’ve point to this guys videos a few times. He’s been tracking it for about 70 days now. In this video, after the update at about the 25-30 minute mark he discusses why the precious economy everybody is so concerned with is doomed. He also discussed how the Fed Reserve has been shoveling money into it in order to bail out the “We didn’t build that, because we don’t build anything at all” hedge funds that do nothing but make money off movement of others money like parasites and how the little people are going to pay for it. In then juxtaposes this on to how all the supposed stimulus is being used at the behest of the big lobbyists that are again screwing the little guy. For example, if you run your business well and don’t have it in debt (no loans) BOA (one of the banks chosen to administer the program says, “sorry, you don’t qualify”. Stagecoach? Nobody knows what they’re doing except probably cooking up another fraud scheme.

    We The People are getting screwed and having our real wealth, built with labor and ingenuity, stolen from us by a small class that is manipulating the finance system that many are indebted to. This started way back, but became a mortal problem with the elimination of the gold standard. The total national debt (to whom?) in the trillion s outweighs the GDP by orders of magnitude. You can’t constantly go with your debt exceeding your income as eventually you will fail.

    America 2.0 may sound ominous, but America 1.0 is dead and what we’re living in isn’t worth saving.

     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
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  35. Majicmike

    Majicmike Overweight lover Benefactor

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    I worry more about the Banana virus. Did you know that every person that has eaten a banana has died or will die.
    I don’t want to catch the Rona, nor do I want a paper cut or a sprained ankle. If I get either, I’ll deal with. Living in fear of anything isn’t living.
    BTW, all this shut down BS is more Political than anything.
     
  36. MacEntyre

    MacEntyre Shoot on Sight! Charter Member Vendor

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    Coronavirus is not causing Any of the bad things that are happening in our economy... it is just a trigger. Our system is a House of Cards, and was susceptible to the next trigger that came along.

    But it could not have been a worse trigger. Things will not return to what we call "normal" and that might be a good thing, in the long run.
     
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  37. Geezer

    Geezer Mama Tried Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I borrowed this from another place.

    Almost 10 million ( 10,000,000) people have applied for unemployment over a virus that on the high end is expected to kill 250,000 people,( in US) most of which will have underlying health conditions that would make them more likely to succumb to any number of viruses out there.
    The unemployment numbers are going to keep climbing. These are lives, families, businesses that are being devastated over something that is looking more and more like it will have a less than 1% kill rate.

    Governors are sending the NG door to door in some states looking for people with residences in other states.

    In California a man was arrested for paddle boarding. Sent a boat and a beach full of cops. His charge was violating the social distancing EO.

    All over the country people are giving up their liberty in the name of safety and security.

    Don’t wear masks/ wear masks this coming from the same 3 letter agency.

    For all the ranting about fake news and lying commie MSM, a whole lot of the country is now believing everything that spews forth from these lying scumbags now.
    Don’t be afraid. Get mad. Get informed. Don’t trade liberty for security.
     
  38. Geezer

    Geezer Mama Tried Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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  39. Geezer

    Geezer Mama Tried Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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  40. Geezer

    Geezer Mama Tried Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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