B&M Super Shorts.......

Discussion in 'Big Bore Rifles' started by Michael458, Mar 23, 2019.

  1. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway
    Again, don't want to sell you anything, just telling Big Bore Stories..................

    Shortly after we started the B&M Adventure, I discovered a Winchester M70 WSSM. They come in 223, 243, and 25. Most likely the reason I had never paid them much attention I suppose. But that action, hmmmmm just so happens that a 1.65 inch cut and trimmed WSM case, fits perfect when you add .500, .474 and .458 caliber bullets to them..................

    [​IMG]

    The rifles are all Winchester M70 WSSM actions, 16.25 inch barrels, and Control Feed.

    You will see this a lot from me. How does one ENHANCE any cartridge? Bullet Tech, that is how. These are small cartridges, small rifles, but with the right bullets, can be extremely effective, and work way above their pay grade, and these do just that, with bullets designed specifically for them from Cutting Edge and North Fork..............

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The Super Shorts are truly in a Class of their own, there really is nothing like them anywhere.......

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    A friend of mine in Texas had this one built some years ago. 458 B&M Super Short. He later carried it to Africa and shot a huge male lion with it.

    [​IMG]

    Wes, from Accurate Innovations made this very nice Bastogne stock for me, specially designed for the Super Short rifles...... This is a 50 B&M Super Short below...... Which later went to Alaska for a bear guide, but not that stock.... I have it here.....

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Below is the first 50 B&M Super Short ever built........... Gun #1. I handed it down to my Daughter, Mercedes, she was a little small at the time to handle it, but I had VA Hydro dip a Pink Camo stock for her anyway. Its hers, shoot it or not, does not matter.......

    [​IMG]

    I really like the 458 B&M Super Short, I had this one done a few years ago, had it GunKote finished in earth Tone. I was into that color a few years ago. LOL.........

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I had a friend one time build a 50 Super Short on a Ruger #1....... He passed, I inherited it back here.....
    [​IMG]
     
  2. ronn47

    ronn47 Where's the Scotch? Charter Member Benefactor Life Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    3,447
    Likes Received:
    5,594
    Location:
    Heath Springs, SC
    Thanks.
    I don't know what it is, but that 475 speaks to me.
     
  3. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway
    To continue the Super Short Story........

    When folks ask about rifles and cartridges for the heavies... Meaning Buffalo, elephant, Hippo, I always steer them to the standard B&M Series. The 50 B&M or 458 B&M.......... 2.24 Inch RUM versions.

    However, I realized just how effective the Super Shorts were on a couple of different adventures with my boys, Matthew and Mark David. They both carried their own Super Shorts to Australia in 2012 for buffalo.

    This is my son Matthew, and our PH there, and good friend Paul Truccolo in the back ground. Matthew is the BIG ONE in front... LOL....... Matt took this extremely large bodied bull with the 50 B&M Super Short, and 375 gr North Fork expanding CPS and Solids......

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Mark David, a skinny little runt at this time, had his own 475 B&M Super Short and used it to great success on this buffalo bull...............

    [​IMG]

    Mark used a 325 gr Cutting Edge Raptor...........

    [​IMG]

    The boys shot a total of around 12-15 buffalo each that trip, and it was extremely impressive to watch them shoot, man could they handle those little guns, fast and furious and they were very effective, knocking most down on the spot.
    We were hunting with our friend Sam Rose, Sam was working with 500 NE and some of the new bullets we had designed for it. Our observations were that the Super Shorts were just as effective on buffalo as his 500 NE. His words, not mine. We were all impressed with the boys and the guns, and of course the Bullets that made them work.............
     
    ChickenHawk, Friday and ronn47 like this.
  4. Geezer

    Geezer Mama Tried Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    12,137
    Likes Received:
    44,270
    Location:
    Conway, SC
    @Michael458 you have some great skill with a camera, too. The pictures are amazing.

    I have noticed that none of your rifles are ported. What are your thoughts and findings on ported barrels? I know that you must have tested them. LOL
     
  5. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway
    Mark David started growing, and by 2014 he took his 475 B&M To Zimbabwe with us. He really showed out on that trip. He was working that little gun fast, and extremely accurate...... I had him shooting once again the Cutting Edge bullets designed for the cartridge, 325 Raptor for extreme trauma, and its matching 350 Super Short Solid.............

    He did not have one issue with this hippo.........
    [​IMG]

    Next up, and primary mission this trip was a buffalo with the 475 SS.... Mark shot the buff straight through the heart at about 20 yards, the buffalo took 5 steps and it was over............

    [​IMG]

    There was some troublesome elephant that were raiding the local village at night. For several days we would drive through, and they asked us several times if we could do something about it. Our PH and Concession owner asked Mark David if he wanted to give it a go. Well, of course, what do you think he would say. The plan was to shoot one of the medium bull elephants that were causing an issue, and hoping to scare the rest of the crowd out of the area......

    We did come upon this group, there were 5-6 of them being rowdy. When they started moving, we managed to get in front of them and set up an ambush. I was kinda hoping to get some shooting in myself, running a new 500 B&M and 450 Solids at 2500 fps, these would hammer down on anything. Mark David loaded up with 350 CEB Solids at 2200 fps in the 475 Super Short. I had instructed him on which shot to take, before hand, instructed on frontal brain, side brain and heart shot, depending on what was presented. Mark was primary shooter, I was only backup if required.

    Elephants started coming by at 10 yards in a line. The PH instructed Mark David which one to take, about 3-4 th one in line as I recall. Mark lined up on a side brain shot that was presented, and executed it perfectly. When an elephant is brain shot, his rear end always drops first, followed by the front, and this is exactly what happened. As I watched the rear end drop, I knew there was no reason for me to shoot at all. Soon as the elephant hit dirt, Mark put an insurance shot up through the heart, and it was over at that point. We discovered the next morning that the bullet entered perfectly for the side brain shot, and then EXITED the far side............ This is a 350 Gr .474 caliber solid, they are not supposed to do that according to the experts..... HEH HEH....... Well, I think the experts need to do a little more homework when it comes to Bullet Design, especially SOLIDS...............

    We were impressed to say the least.............. I still recommend the larger B&Ms for heavy work, but the Super Shorts have most certainly proven themselves extremely capable, in the right hands, and with the right bullets.......

    [​IMG]
     
    ChickenHawk, ronn47 and Geezer like this.
  6. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway

    Thanks Geezer......... No ports, they make unnecessary noise in the field, damaging hearing to those around you. No ports, no brakes........ We learn to handle recoil the old fashion way, hold on tight! LOL.....
    In the field you never feel recoil.
     
  7. 11B CIB

    11B CIB Administrator Staff Member Charter Life Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    5,440
    Likes Received:
    8,201
    Location:
    Gilbert, SC
    Some amazing family memories you have, sir
     
  8. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway
    Wes at Accurate Innovations called up one day and told me he had something that might interest me. A stick of Zebra Wood. But the blank was only long enough for a Super Short Stock. YES, absolutely! I put it on a brand new 475 Super Short. Wes also made some 1911 grips out of the Zebra wood for me.................

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Crazy Carl, ChickenHawk, NKD and 3 others like this.
  9. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway
    There are several 50 B&M Super Shorts in Alaska currently. The Alaskans like them as back up rifles for bear. I just sent this one to Alaska a couple of weeks ago.........

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    ronn47 and Geezer like this.
  10. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway
    One of the big projects we are working on here is with RCC... Roberson Cartridge Company out of Texas. They make proper head stamped brass for various cartridges. Head Stamped brass has always been a major issue. We have done quite a bit in the past with Quality Cartridge and Horneber out of Germany. There have been many problems with both of them. In the end, we did get some good brass for the 50, 458, 416 B&M. But the 500 MDM has always been a issue, and we have never worried much with the Super Shorts.

    And further, if you talk to Starline, or any of the other larger brass manufacturers they all say SURE, no problem, we need a minimum order of 100'000 ! OK, well that is not going to happen.....

    RCC CNC machines the brass to specs. And they will make small lots, down to 20 pieces. Its not cheap, anything from or around $5 each. However, this is a small amount to pay for some comfort when traveling to other countries with
    loaded ammo, that sometimes gets checked against what is marked on the barrel, and they have to match in some way.

    Somehow, RCC got started with the Super Shorts for the B&M cartridges. I have a 458 B&M SS hooked up for pressure work, so we have been concentrating on getting that right. If we get the 458 sorted out, then the 50 and 475 SS will be the same. But we are having some issues. SAAMI WSM and RUM specs are different from real world brass. B&Ms were designed around WSM and RUM real world brass. RCC cut the first Generation from SAAMI specs, and the brass had some dimensions and geometry issues. And, it would only go to around 58000 PSI before reaching max pressures. This brass must be able to go to 65000 PSI and hold.

    I just finished testing the Second Generation run, where specs were much better and matching real world brass. However, after firing two loads at full 65000 PSI the brass expanded, moved so much that it lost its elasticity. It would not size back down. After a report back to RCC I got a call from their chief engineer. He explained to me that the brass from Winchester... WSM.... had a tensile strength of 88000 lbs. The brass they used was 80000 lbs. He had ordered 4 tons of brass that he was having hammer forged to 92000 lbs and that should solve the issue. They are determined to get it right. He told me that if they could do the B&Ms and get it right, then everything else was going to be easy for them, and they wanted to have the best brass that is available. So we wait now for the Third Generation brass. They also do not have another customer that is set up to test as extensively as we are here, so it is helping them in other areas as well.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    ChickenHawk, MacEntyre, NKD and 4 others like this.
  11. Friday

    Friday Polite-Knock raid Charter Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,097
    Likes Received:
    5,967
    Location:
    Worlds Edge WNC
    Ok I have some questions.
    -I personally love the traditional cut of the accurate stocks you seem to prefer. Straight as a line front to back with virtually no drop in the comb. Why do you gravitate towards that, and have you tried any other type of stock?
    -If brass cases present expansion issues, can you use steel cases? Is reloading spent cases a must? (sorry if that's a stupid question, but you'll get a lot of those from me)
    -I imagine buying one of these guns is like buying a Prevost motorhome. You call Prevost and design the entire coach down to the color of the bathroom faucet. Eight months later they call you to come pick it up.
    But on average, if I wanted one of these awesome rifles to carry around in my Prevost to clear my campsite of squirrels, how much would it cost me?
    -Gotta have bullets! If I take a 20 count box of ammo to the range to test/practice, how much does that cut into my beer budget? (fridge #3 in the Prevost is getting low)
    -Most folks have shot a 30.06. How do your B&M rifles compare in recoil? How many shots can the average person take back-to-back before they set the rifle down?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  12. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    8,365
    Likes Received:
    20,193
    Location:
    Conway, S.C.
    Let me translate this for ya'll….HE did All the R&D and spent what it took to get the results he was looking for. Those 2 companies all Very grateful to manufacture them once he showed them what they would do.
     
  13. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway
    Hi Friday.......... There are no Stupid Questions.......... Lets see how I do for you with some answers.....

    Stock design is extremely important for Big Bore rifles, and controlling recoil. The Straight in Line with the Bore design, reduces Muzzle FLIP tremendously, and felt recoil. If that stock has DROP in the rear, when fired it will raise up far higher. It takes you much longer to get back on target this way. The worst thing in the world is to have drop in the rear of the stock on a big bore rifle. Being straight in line with the bore, you tuck that rifle TIGHT into your shoulder, you pull it hard with your off hand, your off hand is what holds the rifle tight, not your trigger hand. Tight to the shoulder, straight in line with the bore stock, and you can control the rifles recoil and muzzle flip. Very important in the field when doing battle with buffalo or any other dangerous game.

    Brass is not really a problem, only for some of the smaller brass manufacturers. The B&M Cartridges are all designed from Winchester WSM brass for the Super Shorts, and all the others from Remington RUM brass. There are Zero issues with this, and Winchester/Remington brass handles far far more than 65000 PSI. It is the other, smaller manufacturers that are having issues. But, with RCC, we will get it right, they are more than willing to go the distance with me. They just have to get the right materials to handle those pressures, and they are working on it........

    Now, big news about this, they have asked me to work with them on a very special material, not brass. This metallurgy was developed 25 years ago by the US Navy, and they have access to this material. It has a tensile strength of 150'000 lbs. Extreme. This stuff, you never resize. It springs out to release bullet and fire, springs back to its original dimensions. Time after Time. Never size, bullet tension remains high, basically a MIRACLE Cartridge Case.
    They asked if I would help out, and they could make some of the B&M cartridges with it for testing...... Naturally I said Oh Hell Yes, Count me In............. So that will be extremely interesting, just imagine...........

    Well, sorta, but only to a point. There are some things that I will not allow you to waste $$ on. Basic B&M comes with standard length barrels, that have been tested, and proven. NECG Front Barrel bands and rear adjustable are standard. There is a fellow close by to SSK that does what is called a GunKote finish, it is a little costly at or around $200 per gun, but MORE than worth it in the end.

    I don't have say in price, I am not in the business, nor do I want to be. Basic cost is send SSK a rifle, if you are in those specs above SSK will charge around $1200-$1500 or so, depending on exact specs. If it is a Super Short, that does not require a AI Stock, then you can get by pretty reasonable. Some rifles do absolutely Require an AI stock, and you can spend as much money as you want and more on Wood! I do want all to use a Control Feed gun, not the cheap ass push/control feed. Those guns are getting harder to come by now and more expensive. Recently I only saw one on GunBroker. Taking a guess, you would maybe have from $2000 total to $2300 in one, with Ultimate Stock. To find out for sure, just call Brian at SSK. Do not speak to anyone else, Brian only..... he handles all the B&M series, and has the most experience with them............

    I keep dies on hand for everything, I bought 20 sets at a time from Hornady, so prices are reasonable, around $100 per set, but that I would have to check to make sure, depending on which B&M. I keep some brass on hand, but with Winchester not making it anymore, the Nosler Hornady Norma is a bit expensive for me to keep. Brass for the super shorts lasts forever. 50-100 pieces and you would never need anymore under any sort of normal circumstances. Bullets and Load data plenty available, and of course I would help you get started with your loads.........

    I am the wrong person to ask this. To me, they are nothing, but I have shot 1000s on top of 1000s. I can tell you this, most shooters that have come by and shot to a man have all stated this "That is not as bad as I thought it was going to be!"............ The Super Shorts because of stock design, are far easier to shoot than a Marlin Guide Gun with that drop in the rear and heavy 45/70 loads. Much Easier to shoot than that. 30/06, I don't know, don't own one, but have many 308s, and they are more than 308! LOL.......... We are talking big bore, not rat guns! I like Rat guns, especially for Rats. HEH.........

    That help?
    M
     
    ronn47 and Friday like this.
  14. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway

    Yes. True. CEB was not even in the Big bore bullet business at all. Dan Smitchko became a very good friend during this process, that was months on end to get things right with both the solids and the Raptors. My deal was that I had the Rifle, I had the Cartridge in .500 caliber, but there were NO bullets that would accomplish the mission requirements I had. We had to design them here. It was an incredible undertaking. One that big bore hunters and shooters are now using all over the world, where dangerous game is involved, and with incredible success.......

    You see, we went through 8-10 generations of design just to get the Solid at the point we wanted........ That means making the small run of test bullets, testing those, getting data, and going back to the drawing board and tweaking the
    design.

    When we finally got it right, we called Dan up, and there was much hooping and hollering and patting on the back and so forth. Dan asked, "Michael, what do you want for the design and how do you want to handle this?" I told Dan that day, I don't want nothing, the design is yours, go with it. He was some astounded, and so pleased that he stated he would make bullets forever for me and Sam for free. OH HELL NO YOU WON"T, I replied. I explained to him that if he did that, in one month the company would be broke and out of business, and I could not have that, I needed someone to make these damn bullets I need for my hunting endeavors. We all got a laugh, but there was a lot of truth in that, as we were doing a lot of shooting. YEs, I get a hell of a discount, below wholesale, and below dealer. But at least my guys are in business and I can get bullets now................

    Bullets Do All The Heavy Lifting...............
     
  15. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Nuts Over Lil D. Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    10,244
    Likes Received:
    28,500
    Location:
    Julian, NC
    Since I don’t own a big bore rifle, I have nothing to add to this thread except the paper towel I’m suing to wipe the drool off me chin
     
    BatteryOaksBilly likes this.
  16. MacEntyre

    MacEntyre Shoot on Sight! Charter Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    3,291
    Likes Received:
    4,924
    Location:
    under a rock on the East Fork of Deep River, NC
    #metoo
     
  17. foopid stucker

    foopid stucker Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    506
    that's some fine guns there. It is so interesting to hear all this backstory, makes me feel like I missed out on an incredible niche to be working in.
    Thanks so much to Michael for taking the time and effort to share all this with us. I am envious.
     
  18. BBD280

    BBD280 God, Guns, and Guts

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,212
    Likes Received:
    8,809
    Location:
    Lumberton, NC
    What bases and rings do you typically use on these thumpers?
     
  19. Michael458

    Michael458 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2019
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Conway
    My Pleasure............. No thanks needed..........Glad you enjoy.

    I use nothing but Leupold QRW Rings and bases on everything....................... For that quick change out should you need it when in the field.
     
    BBD280 likes this.
  20. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    8,365
    Likes Received:
    20,193
    Location:
    Conway, S.C.
    You would starve to DEATH. Michael has never made ONE PENNY off this entire project. He does this like I do here. FREE...nothing to be made but the satisfaction of helping Serious Shooters.
     
    Oneofsix, ncav8tor and BBD280 like this.
  21. foopid stucker

    foopid stucker Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    506
    there is a great satisfaction to be had sharing in the joy of others. thanks to you both
     
  22. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    8,365
    Likes Received:
    20,193
    Location:
    Conway, S.C.
    Not to high jack Mike's thread but he will agree with this, it has been my mantra for years.....you will never know true happiness until you do something for some one you are Certain can never repay you.
     
    Oneofsix and BBD280 like this.