BCM Triple 5 Range Drill
- Thread starter Amp Mangum
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Same crap, different day....
OP
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Yep, you stepping in a thread with nothing to say or add.
Please post some videos of your shooting prowess.
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jmccracken1214
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Competition Electronics Pocket Pro II Timer Blue CEI-4700 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008KMOSAI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_a7nUCbY07Z6P5
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OP
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fieldgrade
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Have you noticed that stick?
Amp, I think we'll try this with a handgun and see what shakes out. Thanks again...……….
Looks like it would be good for for a handgun, too.
I shoot Hackathorns BFM drill a few times a month. I like it for handguns, too.
OP, Im gonna give this one a whirl next time I go out...
OP
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It's a great starter drill and a way for shooters to find where they stand. I typically run .2 per shot +.1 per yard to find an end par value. not a starting par value. I like this drill for its closing time to teach time pressure to a shooter.
An example to find my bottom par, 5 shots is 1 sec and 5 yds is .5 sec's so a par of 1.5 sec's on a 8" round target should be the goal. Any faster is not of real value, looks cool but one can get so fast they can not stop or disengage if needed.
If one uses my scale of time, its adjustable for each shot group and distance.
An example to find my bottom par, 5 shots is 1 sec and 5 yds is .5 sec's so a par of 1.5 sec's on a 8" round target should be the goal. Any faster is not of real value, looks cool but one can get so fast they can not stop or disengage if needed.
If one uses my scale of time, its adjustable for each shot group and distance.
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Thanks to the shooting God's even at my advanced age I can still do this. Since I'm such a "show off", I enjoy doing these things. Everybody should have goals AND [to disagree with Clint] a timer. A timer is nothing more than a yardstick when used properly. Usually when people poo poo timers it's because they don't like the results.
I have an iPhone app called Shot Timer that works OK but it is just a backup. I have had a timer for many years. It is a very valuable tool for dry fire and at the range. And for timing shooters in matches of course.
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Slappy McTrigger
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I forgot to add, my way of finding a bottom time (par) has one extra piece to it. If its a handgun or a slung rifle, meaning both guns are "stowed" not hands-on add .8sec's.
I have also found, that good enough is just that. When someone reaches good enough in EVERY aspect, they are unstoppable. But to silo in a few techniques is bad, bad, bad.
I have also found, that good enough is just that. When someone reaches good enough in EVERY aspect, they are unstoppable. But to silo in a few techniques is bad, bad, bad.
FYI: I train with a timer weekly, have been for years.... any other concerns??
Electronic timers were a costly item 35 years ago. No reason today for any serious shooter not to have a timer. They are very "techy" compared to what we had in the 1900s.
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Kinda hard to miss at 5yd with a carbine. From my old guy POV, you let the baddies get that close, you dun effed up so this stuff is just for fun, games, and braggin rights. Maybe I'm old school, but this is handgun range.
But all of the "drills" are the same basic just with different colored gloves. I guess if someone tweaks at least 2 things then it's a NEW drill and boobtoob worthy..
Chuckman
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Very, very hard to miss at 5 yards. But very, very easy to miss a bullseye with five shots in 2 seconds. This is not a combat marksmanship drill, this is a speed/accuracy drill.
For anyone who thinks they are Delta Force commando ready to go, simply extend the range to 10 yards and then once you master that then to 15 yards and so on.
Chuckman
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But doesn't make it any less effective of a drill? Teaching similar techniques through different methods is a validated teaching tool. If the point is become a better shooter, then take the old standard drills and add a couple twists to them to increase the challenge.
Aaaannnnddd my point-
Lots of folks will spend lots of money on ammo and "instructors" and will never have taken the time and put in the effort on basic marksmanship. I've seen it plenty of times. Tacticool Tim shows up at the range decked out in the latest 5.11 operator chic, got lots of ammo and a shot timer but still can't hit a standard B27 in the 10 ring at 50yds without baggin up off the bench. Last time I bumped into a Timmy, he was baggin up to take head shots at 100yd on a B27. Asked him if he minded me going old school on his target since he was packing up. 10 shots later offhand with a paper cartridge 1863 Sharps carbine yielded 10 canoe head B27s. Yeah, you could tell his hits from mine. Ain't no 5.56 hole going to be mistaken for 54cal.
Learn and MASTER the fundamentals first, THEN speed it up. Eat yer peas before dessert
Lots of folks will spend lots of money on ammo and "instructors" and will never have taken the time and put in the effort on basic marksmanship. I've seen it plenty of times. Tacticool Tim shows up at the range decked out in the latest 5.11 operator chic, got lots of ammo and a shot timer but still can't hit a standard B27 in the 10 ring at 50yds without baggin up off the bench. Last time I bumped into a Timmy, he was baggin up to take head shots at 100yd on a B27. Asked him if he minded me going old school on his target since he was packing up. 10 shots later offhand with a paper cartridge 1863 Sharps carbine yielded 10 canoe head B27s. Yeah, you could tell his hits from mine. Ain't no 5.56 hole going to be mistaken for 54cal.
Learn and MASTER the fundamentals first, THEN speed it up. Eat yer peas before dessert
I like this drill. Who cares if it’s at 5 yds. It’s not working on long range accuracy it’s designed to work on trigger control and recoil management.
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Good one!! You're kidding, right?? Trigger control and RECOIL management from a 223?? You're kidding, right??
As a matter of fact I’m not. Yes there’s not much recoil on a 223 but it’s still there and when your working under time constraints it’s something to understand. Some comps push the muzzle down when you fire, others up so knowing how your gun reacts when fired ( under recoil ) is important. I guess you could shoot it with a 45/70 if you like [emoji849]
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Learn and MASTER the fundamentals first, THEN speed it up. Eat yer peas before dessert
So I had my peas can I now have permission to shoot to your liking?
PLEASSSEEEEEE
I never said that type of shooting wasn't to my liking, reading is fundamental.
My point- there are lots of gullible folks out there willing to part with their money thinking they'll be able to do John Wick shooting if they take this course when they'd be better off doing an Appleseed event first. But hey, pew pew is cool and some guys like to play at operator.
What you posted was judgmental to someone elses effort. As you posted reading is fundamental, so is observation.
The drill in question is a process to interrupt time management and exacute a task.
From my point of view most fundamental marksmanship training is not outdated, nor is it useful, is damn dead wrong. Quality instructors have to unprogram alot.
In every aspect of fundamental marksman training, each step only works in a controlled environment. Once you place a shooter in a real environment most of that "art" or "skill" goes clean out the window. This is the disconnect from practice to use, or round peg, square hole.
Oh, back at the video, 5 yds is 15feet. Few locations in my home is longer then 15feet. So training to shoot on a human head sized target at my reality distance is more better for my home defense then standing hasty sling supported at 200yds.
John
Chuckman
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Classes like this and Appleseed are apples and oranges, no pun intended. But success in one of these courses should set you up to be better in the other.
That said, I tend to agree that there are a lot of people who need work on fundamentals, but really all the so-called advanced stuff is just really faster application of fundamentals.
Chuckman
Senior Member
Not everyone can hit a bull's-eye at a million yards with a .458 like you can. Some people need to work on recoil management when shooting under stress.
As I get older I have a different point of view on this and its still developing. I feel a lot of what anyone who is formally trained would identify as the fundamentals struggle with the application of them because they do not always apply when using a firearm.
Or at the least, the fundamentals are miss placed and/or dead wrong in the communication aspect for training.
Its something to think about.
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Poo Pooing drills is easy to do if you want to. As far as that goes all Any practice is point the gun and discharging bullets down range. To put them all in the same basket is pretty simplistic.
The first thing I do every day is the Wizard..COLD. Then on to other stuff..or not. I don't kill the Wizard every day..maybe half the time. I would stop and try another "first cold" drill if I could kill him every day for a week. I can't. I don't know anybody else who can either..and I know A lot of Good shooters.
I don't ever look at things as completely useless, especially if I haven't tried them.
I Do Not give classes or "train" people to shoot any particular way. I am the world's worst Teacher. I ask folks to look around and take classes that they even think might help in their everyday life. While I can shoot a carbine ok, it's not my tool of choice. That being said I would Never disparage carbines.
A Good trainer can offer you one thing that I always tell folks..He or She will compress time and help you learn today what you would probably have figured out on your own after A Lot of Range time.
The fact that there are folks making a living at this should indicate there is some real world need for this info.
As for folks saying a particular "drill" is useless or not, most of the time there is some degree of competency needed to do them. Hackathorn says the Wizard is His Gold Standard for concealed carry in a 5 shot challenge. When people tell me it doesn't mean anything, my first thought is they either haven't tried it, or even worse they did.
The first thing I do every day is the Wizard..COLD. Then on to other stuff..or not. I don't kill the Wizard every day..maybe half the time. I would stop and try another "first cold" drill if I could kill him every day for a week. I can't. I don't know anybody else who can either..and I know A lot of Good shooters.
I don't ever look at things as completely useless, especially if I haven't tried them.
I Do Not give classes or "train" people to shoot any particular way. I am the world's worst Teacher. I ask folks to look around and take classes that they even think might help in their everyday life. While I can shoot a carbine ok, it's not my tool of choice. That being said I would Never disparage carbines.
A Good trainer can offer you one thing that I always tell folks..He or She will compress time and help you learn today what you would probably have figured out on your own after A Lot of Range time.
The fact that there are folks making a living at this should indicate there is some real world need for this info.
As for folks saying a particular "drill" is useless or not, most of the time there is some degree of competency needed to do them. Hackathorn says the Wizard is His Gold Standard for concealed carry in a 5 shot challenge. When people tell me it doesn't mean anything, my first thought is they either haven't tried it, or even worse they did.
BOB, give us the exact sequence for "The Wizard" .......
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Stage 1) 3 yards, one head shot strong hand only
Stage 2) 5 yards, one head shot using both hands on the gun
Stage 3) 7 yards, one head shot using both hands on the gun
Stage 4) 10 yards, two body shots using both hands on the gun.
At the completion of the exercise, you should have three head shots and two body shots on your target. Each string of fire must have started with the gun in the holster and must be completed within the 2.5 second time limit. Any misses or shots after the time limit indicate a failure of the drill. How do you think you would do?
Longer article here: https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/ken-hackathorns-wizard-drill