Brand new Kimber LW Dark Patrol troubles…..

Bull Durham said:
I’m feeling the same way John.
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I am not a guy who fixes stuff. nor am I a guy who builds stuff.

I have no interest in figuring out why something works. For me, it does or it does not work.

With that typed, I enjoy the hell out of design, and creating things. LOL
 
JBoyette said:
I am not a guy who fixes stuff. nor am I a guy who builds stuff.

I have no interest in figuring out why something works. For me, it does or it does not work.

With that typed, I enjoy the hell out of design, and creating things. LOL
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JB's design and 230 grain ball ammo to feed it work well. Only when everyone decided to 'improve' on his design and different ammo and mag choices came out that there started to be issues. Of course, everyone can produce a turd. This particular manufacturer got a bad rep about 15ish years ago for turds and I am not sure they ever fully recovered.

I have had $400 1911s that ran like a top, and $2K 1911s that were, ah, finicky. It should not be that way.
 
JBoyette said:
Posts like this drive me away from the 1911.

John
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Most commercial, price-point 1911s are not sold as finished products. Extractors aren’t finished and tensioned, undersized firing pin stops, ejectors aren’t fitted and finished, barrel links are apparently selected at random, undersized slide stops, poorly fitted thumb safeties…

Production guns are a long way off from following the original military spec sheet and gauges. I believe, in WWII, one of the established QC checks was assembling guns with parts from mismatched manufacturers. They had to run, and they did run, because everything was the correct size.

Buy one that’s had the time put in, or pay someone competent to put the time in, and it runs like a sewing machine with any in-spec ammunition.

ETA: that’s not to say you won’t get lucky on a budget gun or spending over a grand guarantees anything out of the box. If you buy a decent production-grade gun (Springfield, Colt, Ruger) in the $700-900 range—one that’s a conventional size and caliber—and have another $200-300 in parts and shop time put into it, you’re basically guaranteed reliability on par with most striker-fired duty guns:

- If the extractor has proper tension, doesn’t clock, and has the right nose/hook dimensions,
- If the ejector is the right size and clears the magazine
- If the barrel link, slide stop, and lower lugs are fitted for no slop and full contact

Then there isn’t really anything to go “wrong” with the feeding or extraction cycle.
 
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Ben Jefferson said:
I know that Kimber has gotten a bad rep but I have never had an issue with my TLE / RL
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I think a lot of the Kimber hate comes from brand new guns that are just not broken in yet. I get it, a new gun should just work, and a loose gun will. Kimbers are built tight on purpose and often need some break in.
 
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Flashpoint said:
I think a lot of the Kimber hate comes from brand new guns that are just not broken in yet. I get it, a new gun should just work, and a loose gun will. Kimbers are built tight on purpose and need some break in.
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Ive not had any problems with my Target 10mm longslide, but before I ever even took it out to shoot the first time, I made sure the extractor had tension ( it didnt, but was easily fixed).
 
Desolo said:
Ive not had any problems with my Target 10mm longslide, but before I ever even took it out to shoot the first time, I made sure the extractor had tension ( it didnt, but was easily fixed).
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Yeah I edited my post. Didn't mean to imply they ALWAYS need breaking in. Has a lot to do with ammo I expect. When a gun is built to tighter tolerances it becomes more finicky to variations in ammo. IMO it comes down to possibly dealing with a break in period and some ammo finnickyness if you want a tight accurate gun, or chose a looser platform that will be more reliable out of the box but probably less accurate. Even if it's not more accurate (more things affect accuracy than close tolerances) the feel of handling a precision built weapon has its own rewards.
 
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If it is built to spec it will run. The problem as @JRV pointed out most of the 1911 builders these days treat JMBs spec as more of a suggestion than a blueprint. They have taken a 100+ year old design and adapted it to modern manufacturing techniques. They did this so they can meet price point for a mass produced pistol that people will buy. These days for most guns that means in the $500 to $1000 range. In order to get that done they had to change the spec. They get them to run more often than not but they are often teetering on the edge of reliability. Having a good smith tune a 1911 goes a long way IMHO. It does not have to be a full house custom but getting the extractor, ejector, barrel link, bushing and few other things right goes a long way. Good magazines are also a must. That is another place where some of the "improvements" are solutions looking for a problem.

The other option is to just pay upfront to have someone do it right. For my money Dan Wesson is the sweet spot when it comes to value in 1911s but as @fieldgrade will tell you even they make a dog every now and then.

3hOm014.jpg
 
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wvsig said:
If it is built to spec it will run. The problem as @JRV pointed out most of the 1911 builders these days treat JMBs spec as more of a suggestion than a blueprint. They have taken a 100+ year old design and adapted it to modern manufacturing techniques. They did this so they can meet price point for a mass produced pistol that people will buy. These days for most guns that means in the $500 to $1000 range. In order to get that done they had to change the spec. They get them to run more often than not but they are often teetering on the edge of reliability. Having a good smith tune a 1911 goes a long way IMHO. It does not have to be a full house custom but getting the extractor, ejector, barrel link, bushing and few other things right goes a long way. Good magazines are also a must. That is another place where some of the "improvements" are solutions looking for a problem.

The other option is to just pay upfront to have someone do it right. For my money Dan Wesson is the sweet spot when it comes to value in 1911s but as @fieldgrade will tell you even they make a dog every now and then.

3hOm014.jpg
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We have a member here, and I can't remember his screen name, on the other forum it was "1911 Tuner," who told me once, "It's a machine, if it is in spec, it will run. It has to, it doesn't have a choice. It's a machine." He told me that probably 15 years ago, and I remember it to this day.

Now since people brought up Kimber, I will add my two drachmae: in order to keep production costs down and sell at a lower price point they introduced a whole lot of MIM parts, and while there's nothing wrong with MIM parts, they had a whole lot of cheap ones that broke, so they had a whole lot of guns that were turds that had to get fixed. They never quite got rid of that stigma.

Then several agencies that contracted for pistols ended up turning them back in because they weren't in spec or had other problems...LAPD, the Marines, some others. This was mid-2000s?

Now I'm not going to say that in 2022 they are not good guns. I've never owned one and the ones I've shot have been okay, not spectacular, but not bricks either.

For better or worse, right or wrong, their reputation has taken a hit because of things that happen a long time ago.
 
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Chuckman said:
We have a member here, and I can't remember his screen name, on the other forum it was "1911 Tuner," who told me once, "It's a machine, if it is in spec, it will run. It has to, it doesn't have a choice. It's a machine." He told me that probably 15 years ago, and I remember it to this day.

Now since people brought up Kimber, I will add my two drachmae: in order to keep production costs down and sell at a lower price point they introduced a whole lot of MIM parts, and while there's nothing wrong with MIM parts, they had a whole lot of cheap ones that broke, so they had a whole lot of guns that were turds that had to get fixed. They never quite got rid of that stigma.

Then several agencies that contracted for pistols ended up turning them back in because they weren't in spec or had other problems...LAPD, the Marines, some others. This was mid-2000s?

Now I'm not going to say that in 2022 they are not good guns. I've never owned one and the ones I've shot have been okay, not spectacular, but not bricks either.

For better or worse, right or wrong, their reputation has taken a hit because of things that happen a long time ago.
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If I’m not mistaken, the guy that ran Kimber in those days runs Sig these days. But my memory fails most the time.
 
Chuckman said:
Now since people brought up Kimber, I will add my two drachmae: in order to keep production costs down and sell at a lower price point they introduced a whole lot of MIM parts, and while there's nothing wrong with MIM parts, they had a whole lot of cheap ones that broke, so they had a whole lot of guns that were turds that had to get fixed. They never quite got rid of that stigma.

Then several agencies that contracted for pistols ended up turning them back in because they weren't in spec or had other problems...LAPD, the Marines, some others. This was mid-2000s?
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LAPD SIS contracted for Kimbers. They ended up sidelining them because they wouldn’t run.

MIM is actually a great manufacturing process, but part of the sintering process is that parts shrink a tiny bit. So you end up with undersized components like slide and firing pin stops if you haven’t accounted for that shrinkage.
 
Chuckman said:
We have a member here, and I can't remember his screen name, on the other forum it was "1911 Tuner," who told me once, "It's a machine, if it is in spec, it will run. It has to, it doesn't have a choice. It's a machine." He told me that probably 15 years ago, and I remember it to this day.

Now since people brought up Kimber, I will add my two drachmae: in order to keep production costs down and sell at a lower price point they introduced a whole lot of MIM parts, and while there's nothing wrong with MIM parts, they had a whole lot of cheap ones that broke, so they had a whole lot of guns that were turds that had to get fixed. They never quite got rid of that stigma.

Then several agencies that contracted for pistols ended up turning them back in because they weren't in spec or had other problems...LAPD, the Marines, some others. This was mid-2000s?

Now I'm not going to say that in 2022 they are not good guns. I've never owned one and the ones I've shot have been okay, not spectacular, but not bricks either.

For better or worse, right or wrong, their reputation has taken a hit because of things that happen a long time ago.
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1911Tuner=@John Travis
 
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I got an RMA from Kimber today.
I still cannot find the logic in purchasing a brand new weapon and having to spen $300 or so more on ammo to get it to run as it is expected to.
The CSR lady that I spoke to this afternoon about sending it back agreed that it would take me “forever “ to get through the suggested 500 break-in rounds that Kimber suggested in the manual.
If that’s the case, if they ship me the 500 rounds-I’ll be glad to put forth the effort/trouble to make the thing run. Otherwise, am I wrong to expect that a new, in box weapon, to at minimum go into battery with brass cased ball ammo?
 
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Bull Durham said:
I got an RMA from Kimber today.
I still cannot find the logic in purchasing a brand new weapon and having to spen $300 or so more on ammo to get it to run as it is expected to.
The CSR lady that I spoke to this afternoon about sending it back agreed that it would take me “forever “ to get through the suggested 500 break-in rounds that Kimber suggested in the manual.
If that’s the case, if they ship me the 500 rounds-I’ll be glad to put forth the effort/trouble to make the thing run. Otherwise, am I wrong to expect that a new, in box weapon, to at minimum go into battery with brass vases ball ammo?
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Dan Wesson tells you to run 600 to break them in...
Les Baer, no telling how many, they are so tightly fitted.

but, as you observed, it ought to at least go into battery.
 
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I worked the slide a counted 500 times last night in the recliner.
Today, I loaded a Wilson 47D mag
With 7 rnds of Blazer Brass and attempted to slingshot the slide to chamber a round.
No good. It wouldn’t go into battery again.
The pistol is boxed and waiting on the shipping label.”, ready to be shipped to Kimber Customer Service in Troy, Alabama.
 
Ben Jefferson said:
I know that Kimber has gotten a bad rep but I have never had an issue with my TLE / RL
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There is good reason they got a bad name. I’ve had 2. I have zero now.

Quality manufacturing doesn’t need break in rounds. They might as well say “we have shitty quality control. Hopefully shooting it will solve it.” Never had a CZ, Glock, or Dan Wesson need shooting to function. I’ll also add their mags are junk. MIM parts stink. It’s what made Colts unreliable the last two decades. My guess is CZ will fix that issue within two years given they are new owners.
 
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The notion of having to run through 300 or 500 rounds of ammunition just to get the gun to function is...IMHO...bordering on criminal. The thing should work straight out of the box, period.

On the go to/return to battery issue...more and more these days I see excessive extractor deflection, and about 75% of the time, when there's a go to battery problem, that is the cause. It's almost like nobody knows how to make an extractor within spec any more...or properly cut an extractor channel for that matter.

With the right tools and a little understanding, it's most often a simple fix that takes about 15 minutes, including disassembly and reassembly. Now, if Kimber's armorers are smart enough to spot it and know what to do about it, you'll get a functioning gun back. If they're not...and you don't...You're only about an hour away.
 
Thank you Gentlemen for all of the responses and the generous offers to help.
It is boxed up, and heading to Alabama in hope that the factory guys can get it running.
When it gets back, I understand that it’ll take some time to get smooth and hopefully turn into what my idea of a 1911 should act like.
Y’all have given me a lot of insight and advice thst is appreciated and will be utilized when the pistol returns.
Thanks again Gents.
I’ll update the thread as things progress.
 
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All this has made my head spin. Have I reached the right conclusion?

“We make high precision firearms that are too tight to run. Please beat them up until they reach a level of precision that allows them to function.”

🤔
 
Got an email from UPS that the pistol would be delivered to my house tomorrow by 9:00PM.

Hopefully, it will at minimum go into battery this time! It would also be great if there was a note or something telling what was done to correct the problem.
Maybe I ask too much…….we shall see.
 
The Kimber was delivered to the farm today. When I got home, I unpacked it and read the shop sheet from the Service Center.
It said that they adjusted the extractor, replaced the recoil spring, reamed and polished the barrel’s chamber, refinished the barrel, and clean and oiled it.
They also test fired 4 mags through it.
I loaded up 8 mags and headed to the pond dam. It ran like a sewing machine. I’m pleased. I was surprised that they got it back to me as quickly as they did.
The only thing that they did that I wasn’t real happy over was to remove my grip tape from the front strap. Not a big thing as I had more.
I am looking forward to running some more rounds through it in the coming days.

I’ll attach the shop sheet.
Thanks to Ash and all of you guys who replied with advice and hard gained wisdom!

JD
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fieldgrade said:
@Bull Durham You know, regarding that grip tape removal. I wonder if they sent you back the same gun.
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I thought about that but the serial # is the same.
It sure doesn’t shoot like the same one.
 
Bull Durham said:
I thought about that but the serial # is the same.
It sure doesn’t shoot like the same one.
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IIRC and the forum’s FFLs maybe able to shed more light on this. But if they replaced the pistol they could use the old serial number as long as they destroyed the defective one.


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