COMING TO THE AID OF A POLICE OFFICER

This is a tough one. LOTS of risk coming to the aid of a police officer.

Some of my friends are LEO, so I've thought about this a bit. What if one of them were in trouble? Easy response: they would recognize me and know I was there to help.

What if the officer was a stranger? I'd still do my best to help.

It is very likely that, in trying to help, I'll get injured or killed. I've thought about it and know that is a possibility. Especially when other officers show up.

There is no such thing as no risk or even low risk when you try to help. I know this going into it. I've got no kids, but the officer might. I'm not so important or vital to the world that I wouldn't assume some risk if it meant saving someone else.
 
Studentofthegun said:
This is a tough one. LOTS of risk coming to the aid of a police officer.

Some of my friends are LEO, so I've thought about this a bit. What if one of them were in trouble? Easy response: they would recognize me and know I was there to help.

What if the officer was a stranger? I'd still do my best to help.

It is very likely that, in trying to help, I'll get injured or killed. I've thought about it and know that is a possibility. Especially when other officers show up.

There is no such thing as no risk or even low risk when you try to help. I know this going into it. I've got no kids, but the officer might. I'm not so important or vital to the world that I wouldn't assume some risk if it meant saving someone else.
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That happened not long ago , good guy killed by arriving police officers .
 
Toooooooo many situational variables to say what I’d do. In a city setting … be a good witness and call 911. In a rural setting (especially if you and the department know each other) it is more likely to actually “help”. It depends on communication with the LEO in need, the communication with those responding (dispatcher better be damn good at their job) along with other possible “Good Samaritans” who might not know your intent. To me there is no yes or no answer and while I’d like to say I’d jump in … sometimes it just might not be the smartest or safest thing to do especially since LEO’s today are already leery of anyone they do not know when crap is going down.
 
I have considered and do have a plan for this. Get me and mine away and out of there. I can't even imagine how I might help, much less figure it out on the fly.
 
Walkabout Dan said:
That happened not long ago , good guy killed by arriving police officers .
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That guy made some grave mistakes. As in picking up the assailants weapon after he had neutralized him and no backing away from the scene. Best case scenario, shoot the perp, holster and call the police while standing back from the scene. But hindsight and all that.
 
I think this is gonna bleed into that other thread...
But in the old days, I think you might have been fine helping out. Cops tend to shoot a little bit faster these days without asking so many questions. Look up the case of Steven Mader - who was fired from his job as a cop for NOT shooting a guy. Protocol said he was supposed to shoot, but he didn't see the guy as a real threat and was still trying to talk the guy into putting his gun down when 2 other cops rolled up and terminated the dude.
 
Considering their shoot first ask questions later attitude these days...I am going to let them deal with their situation. Unfortunately the good guys in blue are surrounded by a bunch of ill prepared quota hires and superiors that think leftist politics are more important than catching criminals. That is why many of us are no longer in the game.
 
Given the number of comments, including in the link posted by Reeldoc, that being seen with a weapon makes you either a bad guy or a threat, what does this make cops? It looks to me like an extension of the us versus them mentality.
Studentofthegun said:
There is no such thing as no risk or even low risk when you try to help. I know this going into it. I've got no kids, but the officer might. I'm not so important or vital to the world that I wouldn't assume some risk if it meant saving someone else.
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I don't have kids either, but I have a wife and a duty to her that is more important to me than any other person in the world.
 
If I’m driving down the road and see a traffic stop gone bad with a person obviously shooting at a LEO, I’d swerve over and clip him.

Beyond that I have not considered, but think it unlikely that I could be of much help given the speed at which these things tend to develop.
 
Walkabout Dan said:
That happened not long ago , good guy killed by arriving police officers .
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Yes, he picked up the rifle that the bad guy used.

www.buzzfeednews.com

Police Killed A "Good Samaritan" Who Fatally Shot A Gunman Who Had Killed A Cop

Johnny Hurley "undoubtedly saved many lives" when he killed a shooting suspect, only to be fatally shot himself by police responders in Colorado.
www.buzzfeednews.com www.buzzfeednews.com

I'd help if the officer asked for it.

abcnews.go.com

Video shows passer-by shooting Florida deputy's attacker

Ashad Russell shot the attacker three times, killing him.
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com
 
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www.foxnews.com

Washington deputy accidentally shoots off-duty officer dead at his home, investigators say

A Clark County Sheriff's deputy fatally shot off-duty Vancouver Police Officer Daniel Sahota, 52, at his home Saturday night after the officer tried to apprehend an armed robbery suspect trying to get inside.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

Another example of cops showing up and executing everyone with a gun. There is no way the off duty cop threatened the uniformed officer with a gun, yet he is dead. If they are running wild killing their own then you know there is a problem.
 
Murtaugh said:
www.foxnews.com

Washington deputy accidentally shoots off-duty officer dead at his home, investigators say

A Clark County Sheriff's deputy fatally shot off-duty Vancouver Police Officer Daniel Sahota, 52, at his home Saturday night after the officer tried to apprehend an armed robbery suspect trying to get inside.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

Another example of cops showing up and executing everyone with a gun. There is no way the off duty cop threatened the uniformed officer with a gun, yet he is dead. If they are running wild killing their own then you know there is a problem.
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Oh crap. I read that this morning before all those details were released.

I was wondering what the story was.
 
Tough one, I guess it would depend on the circumstances.
 
Murtaugh said:
www.foxnews.com

Washington deputy accidentally shoots off-duty officer dead at his home, investigators say

A Clark County Sheriff's deputy fatally shot off-duty Vancouver Police Officer Daniel Sahota, 52, at his home Saturday night after the officer tried to apprehend an armed robbery suspect trying to get inside.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

Another example of cops showing up and executing everyone with a gun. There is no way the off duty cop threatened the uniformed officer with a gun, yet he is dead. If they are running wild killing their own then you know there is a problem.
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define "problem"
It wasn't a "problem" when cops were shooting regular people with video game controllers, cell phones, sandwiches, or shiny toy trucks.
So it must not be a problem when cops are shooting people brandishing firearms, regardless of the fact that they're other cops.
Don't get me wrong, i feel bad for his family and i wish it wouldn't have happened, but only to the extent that i would for any "civilian" who had the same thing happen.
if cops have to shoot other cops before they rethink their methods... that's a whole other issue. we "civilians" want to get home safe too.
 
Reading the article, sounds like a chaotic situation. Scuffle with suspect, officer stabbed, suspect ruining toward occupied house while wife on phone with 911, and officer chasing with gun in hand probably in civilian clothes. Would hate to be the responding officer and have to make a split second decision. Odds are probably 50 50 in that type of situation that you make the correct call.
 
I reread the article, in particular the part about the responses in the order of how many times they were given and there are a few common themes here, none of which are positive.
1) There is a mentality that us peasants should do nothing, call dial a prayer, and wait for government. This is a very unfortunate thought pattern that has permeated into just about every aspect of life.
2) The cops think that everyone is a threat that wants to hurt them.
3) A person having a gun automatically makes them a threat and a "bad guy".

As Herschel Smith at The Captains Journal likes to say, you're never in as much peril as you are when the cops are around.
 
I was a Marine, not a cop - I'm not trained for their job no how, no way. But I'd try to help by getting on the phone to 911 and asking them "what can I do here?" At least, I hope I'd have the presence of mind to do that. If the fighting is over (and often these things happen in a matter of seconds), I'd want to give first aid if needed, with 911 on speaker so they could coach me and tell any arriving officers that I was there.

Most likely though, I'm gonna just GTFO and stay out of the line of fire.
 
DrScaryGuy said:
define "problem"
It wasn't a "problem" when cops were shooting regular people with video game controllers, cell phones, sandwiches, or shiny toy trucks.
So it must not be a problem when cops are shooting people brandishing firearms, regardless of the fact that they're other cops.
Don't get me wrong, i feel bad for his family and i wish it wouldn't have happened, but only to the extent that i would for any "civilian" who had the same thing happen.
if cops have to shoot other cops before they rethink their methods... that's a whole other issue. we "civilians" want to get home safe too.
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My point was, there is always some excuse when some trigger happy cop kills regular people with video game controllers, cell phones, and shiny toy trucks. It has been a problem (with cops) for a long time now.

Well here we have a case where an off duty cop, who should know how to conduct himself around a uniformed cop, gets executed for simply having a gun. As I said in the first post you misunderstood, there is no way the off duty cop threatened the uniformed cop and yet the off duty cop is dead. There was no split decision, there was no choice to make. The answer is easy, cops should not be executing people for simply possessing a gun. If two cops can't keep from killing each other then there is a problem...to elaborate...a problem (and a serious one at that) for regular people with the right to keep and bear arms when cops come rolling onto their property executing everyone in sight with a gun. These cops need to be getting into a position and ordering people to drop weapons like we did in the old days. Too many people in and out of uniform being killed because of poor training and poor hiring decisions.

That help?
 
This is what happened when an off duty NYPD officer and retired detective got involved in the drug store armed robbery while a BATF&E agent was picking up his father's cancer prescription.

www.nytimes.com

Intervening After Robbery, an Off-Duty A.T.F. Agent Is Killed (Published 2012)

The special agent for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was fatally shot after confronting a robbery suspect outside a pharmacy.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
Murtaugh said:
My point was, there is always some excuse when some trigger happy cop kills regular people with video game controllers, cell phones, and shiny toy trucks. It has been a problem (with cops) for a long time now.

Well here we have a case where an off duty cop, who should know how to conduct himself around a uniformed cop, gets executed for simply having a gun. As I said in the first post you misunderstood, there is no way the off duty cop threatened the uniformed cop and yet the off duty cop is dead. There was no split decision, there was no choice to make. The answer is easy, cops should not be executing people for simply possessing a gun. If two cops can't keep from killing each other then there is a problem...to elaborate...a problem (and a serious one at that) for regular people with the right to keep and bear arms when cops come rolling onto their property executing everyone in sight with a gun. These cops need to be getting into a position and ordering people to drop weapons like we did in the old days. Too many people in and out of uniform being killed because of poor training and poor hiring decisions.

That help?
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I think you missed a heavy dose of my sarcasm.
note the italics i used when i said "It wasn't a 'problem' when..."
I actually did believe it was a problem then, but the whole qualified immunity and wide latitude thing told me I was wrong.
 
Not sure I will be getting involved unless the likelihood of death awaits the officer. Officers are enforcers for the government. The rule he or she is enforcing, because it is their job, could one day be a rule that makes the honest into criminals. Many will also enforce those laws, without question. I have no allegiance to people with blind trust.
 
Sit down with a LEO or two you know and ask … you’ll be surprised at what range if answers you’ll likely get especially if you can ask an old-school LEO and a next-Gen LEO.
 
NCFubar said:
Sit down with a LEO or two you know and ask … you’ll be surprised at what range if answers you’ll likely get especially if you can ask an old-school LEO and a next-Gen LEO.
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I bet you are correct.
 
Elenaidan said:
I bet you are correct.
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Had lunch with a 20-some year LEO and he said even up to maybe 10 years back it would likely have been okay. But today … DO NOT do it unless a LEO is begging for help and if you even do then you‘d better be ready when the units he’s called roll up to be real compliant real fast for your sake. Unless you are well known by sight by responding units your a threat automatically. I’m still waiting on a kid I know who has about 2 years under his belt …
 
Chuckman said:
I'd LIKE to say yes, but if some other po-po sees me in my hoodie at a scene with a weapon I am not liking my chances of coming out alive.
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Different but related topic -- I have this same mentality about truck ARs. Seeing an active shooting, going to your vehicle to retrieve a rifle and then returning to the scene is about as smart as walking into a lions' den covered in steaks.
 
Cops need to stop and think, before reacting. Cops need to be evaluating the situation before they just start shooting. Cops need to have ingrained in their brains that a person with a gun is not always a threat, no matter what the call they are responding to. Does this mean more cops are going to get hurt, sure. But, and the same time, it will save a lot of citizens from being wrongly shot. I would rather a cop get shot, then a citizen get wrongly shot my the cops. We pay the police to risk their lives to protect us, start risking their lives not the citizens lives.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
Cops need to stop and think, before reacting. Cops need to be evaluating the situation before they just start shooting. Cops need to have ingrained in their brains that a person with a gun is not always a threat, no matter what the call they are responding to.
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Why would they when they have immunity.

Shooting someone that's unarmed, in the back, while they are walking away is NOT the same.
 
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Again, one LEO's perspective for what its worth. Ask another officer and they may have different thoughts, which is part of what makes this situation tough, but I'll engage this conversation with my thoughts...thats all they are...know the law and take ownership of your decisions...this is not legal advise.

Most the LE I know would say they would appreciate assistance...but will quickly say they have internal conflict. We all know that when adrenaline gets going and cognitive function diminishes in a fight for life, any number of things could happen. People thinking about this issue do well to fully appreciate that fact. There are too many circumstantial variables to give a canned answer here. The "Do I help?" question, when answered in the affirmative, should be accompanied by "How do I help?" in advance. There are plenty of cases where if a friendly citizen hadn't helped, the officer would likely have fallen. On the other hand, without doubt, there have been situations where officers have perceived friendly aid as a threat. The later is a tragic situation and I respect the view of those who just stay out of it and do not increase the risk to their selves. I knew the risk getting into this line of work and have already made the decision to enforce the law knowing what the risks are to me. Whereas most officers would definitely appreciate assistance, I for one, would rather fall at the hands of a criminal and others stay a safe distance away and report what is going on to dispatch than someone else get hurt or worse coming to my aid.

A phone call to 911 may be the best thing you can do to give aid and if time allows is the first course of action you should consider. Officers don't always have time to radio in. In the event that the officer didn't have time to radio in, information you report about the where, what, and who, is critical. If an officer is in a fight and has radioed for help (or your call has triggered further response), just know that officers inbound will be coming in hot and the information they have may be limited. Having reported the location and what is going on there, you should also described yourself accurately and clearly stated your intent to help so that responding officers can anticipate your presence on scene, if after weighing the cost/risk/law, that is what you decide to do. Alternatively, a person with you could call 911 while you are going to give aid. Forethought, and threads like this may be something you talk about with your loved ones, so if you happen upon a situation like this everyone knows what to do. You can bet that when the fecal matter spontaneously impacts the pneumatic oscillator what is "ideal" goes out the window.

Sometimes it's helpful to be a helper, but as others have mentioned, the truth is, sometimes it only creates another layer of complexity and "help" means not making the situation confusing and increasing the risk to all parties, including yourself.

Studentofthegun said:
This is a tough one. LOTS of risk coming to the aid of a police officer.

Some of my friends are LEO, so I've thought about this a bit. What if one of them were in trouble? Easy response: they would recognize me and know I was there to help.

What if the officer was a stranger? I'd still do my best to help.

It is very likely that, in trying to help, I'll get injured or killed. I've thought about it and know that is a possibility. Especially when other officers show up.

There is no such thing as no risk or even low risk when you try to help. I know this going into it. I've got no kids, but the officer might. I'm not so important or vital to the world that I wouldn't assume some risk if it meant saving someone else.
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God bless your soul Studentofthegun!!! This post brings up several important considerations. Everyone has a decision to make. If I'm in another county or state where I have no jurisdiction or law enforcement authority, and see an officer engaged in a fight he/she is loosing, I am assuming the risk of being hurt/killed by the cop or the bad guy, on behalf of the officer in need. I won't hesitate to do what makes sense in that situation to help that officer and I'll live with the consequences of that decision. I see all sides on this, we have personal decisions to make that come with lasting or fatal consequences not to mention legal. For me, I'm with Studentofthegun, sacrifice is premeditated, I'm inbound.

Is the officer asking for assistance, and for what? If so, situation and state law depending, this may apply: https://www.ncleg.gov/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/BySection/Chapter_15A/GS_15A-405.pdf

To reiterate Studentofthegun's point: Are you known to the officer and recognizable as a friendly? Are you calling out their name so they know you at least know them? This is where community policing programs and good ole' relationship building with the LEOs in your area may pay off. Also, are you communicating loudly and clearly saying things like, "I'm Friendly... Can I help" so they have a greater chance of understanding your intentions to provide aid should that be what you choose to do.

Lastly, there is another scenario that needs forethought, that of the injured officer. An armed and injured officer who has just been in a fight and may be loosing consciousness is a very dangerous person to approach even for uniformed officers that are familiar.

Sorry for another long post, but I felt the topic was too important not to give a thorough response.

Respectfully, Philosofarmer
 
I was involved in an officer's request for help in a parking lot one night when I lived in Canada. I will save all the details. But I and another man responded to the officers very loud request for help. He was clearly in trouble. The first thing was to request someone call 911. This was pre cell phone normalcy. After that it all happened so fast but I do remember once we had become a part of the struggle looking to see where the officers gun was. Yes Canadian law enforcement carry real guns. Knowing where the gun was probably should have been a higher priority before becoming involved. The situation turned quickly with the aid of the other gentleman and the officer was able to cuff the guy. He said to me and the other guy that had helped. Get out of here now. Go inside the store which we were outside of and wait there. He did not want any confusion about who was who when other cops showed up. I would imagine unless an officer requests help specifically stay the heck away. And if he or she does, start with 911. We were not identified specifically in the report. I suppose you could request Samaritan status if you are worried about liability.
 
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