Consumed, possessed and obsessed/ The Windom and Ground

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Lawless

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I am one of those people who seem to lock onto a topic, read about it and experiment with it for weeks sometimes before I feel I understand it as well as my level of brain capacity will allow. Radio has been like this and as such a broad and expansive subject, I find myself simply buried in reading. I have to pace myself and separate subjects to keep from overloading my CPU LOL

Antennas, grounding and propagation going hand in hand in hand is my subject of obsession right now. My G5RV is a place holder and has gotten me on the air, but I know it's a compromise. I also know i have a simple but not ideal installation of my coax, antenna and the way it is connected to the radio.

I keep coming back to the Windom antenna and feel it is probably the best solution for me. It should remove any common mode RF from my feedline with its 4:1 balun and reduce the job the tuner has to do. I also need to address my grounding and make a better overall grounding system. An excellent place to read about the Windom Antenna is here :
http://www.packetradio.com/windom.htm

The Plan:
  1. I am going to use a PL259/SO239 bulkhead connector and some stainless to make a ground for my coax shield where it comes into the shack and/or install a lightning arrestor (depends on the design or the aresstor). This will require a jumper of LMR400 or RG213 to go from the ground assembly into the shack. I plan to build or buy a box to house it to minimize weather on the connections. The ground rod will also need to be connected to the service ground in my shack to remove any voltage potential due to failure. This will be a work in progress I am sure but I understand the basics and will get it done in a quality manner, if I update it later it will be to use nicer stuff.
  2. I am going to buy a genuine BuxxCom Windom antenna with 4:1 balun and get the G5RV down. I plan to also ground the coax at the antenna. I will take the G5RV and disassemble it to use some of the components to build a NVIS antenna for the CFF NVIS Preparedness Network (no really we are planning a group, see the other post on it ).
  3. Build a ground bar for in the shack to eliminate daisy chaining the chassis grounds.
Here are some things I need to get from BuxxCom. (20% off til Jan, use coupon BUX10)
  1. Antenna- https://packetradio.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=49&products_id=2704
  2. Jumper- https://packetradio.com/catalog/ind...ucts_id=1314:c2deaa0744d98316929f3c74f4125e8b
And from DX Engineering
  1. https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/alf-att3g50ub

I have come to understand that HF ham is a journey with no end in sight LOL. It is a hobby, like guns and shooting, that rewards practice and doing things right. I again want to thank htperry , Howard you have no idea how much you helped me. I transitioned from a outlaw CBer with a passing interest into a licensed Amateur Radio Operator obsessed like a crazy man. Thanks for giving me another bottomless hole to throw money into and for many late nights reading about this shiz.
 
There's no single answer to an antenna question, but let me ask what it is you're aiming for before recommending antennas.

Some questions that'll help with a recommendation

* What bands will you operate?

* What is your goal (DX, contest, ragchewing, just leaarning about HF, etc...? )

* How much room do you have?

* Do you have any homeowners covenants?

* Do you have trees, or a tower or something high to hang wires from?

* How much work / debug do you want to do? Do you have an elmer nearby to help you?

* Do you have a "tuner"? If so, is it internal to the rig or external?

There's no wrong answer to any of the above.... it's just that "what antenna should I install" is somewhat like "what kind of vehicle should I get"?

Looking forward to your answers and it's great that you're heading to HF!

Johnk K#xx
 
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I will say, I do not like Buxxcom assemblies. I will buy components from Buck. but his assemblies are lacking in quality, IMO. Plus, Buck is a dick.

I'll read this thread completely in a bit. I have family coming over this evening.
 
I've been running a RadioWorks 80m Carolina Windom and have been quite pleased with it. It may be a slightly different Windom design than what you're looking at. There are some variations.
I don't know if I would dismantle the G5RV unless you have to. It has its place as a decent functional multi-band antenna. You never know when you might need it to replace a downed antenna, set up another station or even as barter material.
 
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htperry;n24859 said:
I will say, I do not like Buxxcom assemblies. I will buy components from Buck. but his assemblies are lacking in quality, IMO. Plus, Buck is a dick.

I'll read this thread completely in a bit. I have family coming over this evening.
Click to expand...

I agree on both. I got one of his packet interfaces many yrs ago and while it worked, it was extremely sketchy in construction quality. I've heard the "dick" comment enough from enough different people that I believe that too!
 
JohnFreeman;n24837 said:
There's no single answer to an antenna question, but let me ask what it is you're aiming for before recommending antennas.

Some questions that'll help with a recommendation

* What bands will you operate?

* What is your goal (DX, contest, ragchewing, just leaarning about HF, etc...? )

* How much room do you have?

* Do you have any homeowners covenants?

* Do you have trees, or a tower or something high to hang wires from?

* How much work / debug do you want to do? Do you have an elmer nearby to help you?

* Do you have a "tuner"? If so, is it internal to the rig or external?

There's no wrong answer to any of the above.... it's just that "what antenna should I install" is somewhat like "what kind of vehicle should I get"?

Looking forward to your answers and it's great that you're heading to HF!

Johnk K#xx
Click to expand...

80-10

DX, chatting

150' or so

No HOA

Yes, trees

No one physically close by

MFJ939
 
htperry;n24859 said:
I will say, I do not like Buxxcom assemblies.
Click to expand...

Wow, never read this.

Edited* I did just read some negative stuff on Eham.
 
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Another reason a Windom would work well for me is that it is offset fed. The trees in my back yard favor this for such a long antenna.

I am not ordering an antenna however until we hash this out LOL. I want a good one. A Buckmaster from DXE is $229! It must be pretty well made LOL.

A NI4L OCF antenna is $139 with a 3KW balun and pretty nice components. Dual core balun too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271896149201...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

NI4L website
http://www.ni4l.com/ocf-windom-dual-core-current-balun-3kw-flex-weave/
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.ebayimg.com\/images\/g\/AJgAAOSweW5VdupC\/s-l1600.jpg"}[/IMG2]
 
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I looked up Balun Designs that Howard mentioned. Very nice looking stuff.
Looks like if I followed his lead, I could build an OCF antenna with very nice wire and insulators for about as cheap as I can buy one.

http://www.balundesigns.com/4/
 
I used the 5kw version of their 4:1 OCF Balun and 10 Gauge THHN wire. I'm of the feeling that 1500 watt Baluns are not for 1.5kw use unless the antenna stays in ideal operating condition at all times. I feel the 5kw gives a measure of greater heat tolerance capability when matching with possibly negative radiator conditions. So, I run 1.3kw in the 5kw Balun and never expect cracked toroids.

I've had a 6" tree fall across my OCF and the antenna held up the tree and wasn't damaged.

 

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htperry;n25195 said:
I used the 5kw version of their 4:1 OCF Balun and 10 Gauge THHN wire. I'm of the feeling that 1500 watt Baluns are not for 1.5kw use unless the antenna stays in ideal operating condition at all times. I feel the 5kw gives a measure of greater heat tolerance capability when matching with possibly negative radiator conditions. So, I run 1.3kw in the 5kw Balun and never expect cracked toroids.

I've had a 6" tree fall across my OCF and the antenna held up the tree and wasn't damaged.
Click to expand...

Very cool Howard, that 10G wire is stout!

Balun designs has this PDF that is a nice help to us newbs.
http://www.balundesigns.com/content/OCF Antenna.pdf

Did you use crimps or zip ties or knots for securing the wire to the eyelets and insulators?

You used the balun I looked at the hardest, the "hybrid" with a coax choke built in. Does yours work well on 80M? I assume it's 130+ feet.
 
OK.... good info .

I think you mentioned you had a G5RV up now. That's a similar installation (a quasi-all band antenna requiring a tuner). While I think the windom would work ok too, I doubt you'd see a huge difference in performance other than on 80 and perhaps 40 (I'm not sure how high up your G5RV is)

The thing about non-resonant "all band" antennas is that regardless of what the tuner transforms the impedance of you antenna into (hopefuilly, something looking like 50 ohms resistive ) a coax fed antenna with a tuner at the shack is going to be lossy, and some what fiddly to get matched. Yes it will work and yes it will make contacts but I might suggest another thing to try. Things like "choke baluns" work to a point in keeping reflected RF under control, but they work by turning RF to heat, as does a bunch of RF bouncing back and forth on your feedline from mismatched loads. You don't want heat....!

For the next couple of years at least, 10 /12 M is going to be pretty quiet, unless you hit an opening just right. I'd consider focusing on 15-80. I'd probably try a resonant fan dipole for 20 with another element for 15/40

I'd also install a inverted L for 80 (and thru the tuner for 40).

The fan dipole for 20 and 15/40 would require just 2 elements, and they're pretty foolproof. The beauty is that being resonant , there's not a lot of fiddling you'd need to do to change bands. Likewise, a dipole at 40-50 feet on those bands is going to get out really well. You'll learn some practical knowledge about wire length vs length of antenna that will be handy too. You can just use some cheap 2-3' lengths of PVC to separate the far end of the dipole elements so that you don't have to futz with them interacting .

An inverted L on 80 can be tuned on other bands (some easily, some grudgingly) :) With some ground radials, it'll rock for the next few years in the evening. Plans area everywhere.

All of these involve rope, a pulley or 5 , wire and some PVC. Of course you'll need more than 1 feedline (or a remote coax switch...which is a really handy item) and will work very well.

If you're near the triangle , I'd be glad to consult :) .... this is pretty cookbook stuff though... if you build it, it'll work. If I was stuck on store bought "all band" (remember that with a tuner, any random length is also "all band", I'd look at the Alpha Delta offerings. They're REALLY well made... I've got one of their 160/80/40 m slopers and it's been up 10 yrs.

My $0.02 as a EE and a 40 yrs of actively being a ham. Whatever you do, get some wire up and get on the air! :)

John
 
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JohnFreeman from what I read, the OCF antennas don't need a tuner except on 15 and 17.

Thanks for the suggestions. More reading.
 
Lawless;n25205 said:
Did you use crimps or zip ties or knots for securing the wire to the eyelets and insulators?
Click to expand...

Works great on 80/40/20, but I prefer my Butternut HF9V on the other HF bands and 6M.

I stripped the 10 gauge, created a loop through the eyelets, lineman's wrap and soldered the loops at the balun and at the ends. On the long end I left 2 feet hanging and on the short end I left 1 foot hanging to trim. I think my exact starting lengths were 46.5' and 89.5'

I can use my OCF on all bands without an external tuner and on 20m, no tuner at all. My tuner adds 0 capacitance and inductance on 20M. I'm very happy with my materials, build and performance. It is up as an inverted V, with the balun at 35 feet and ends coming down to about 10 feet off the ground. The angle between the legs is about 110-120 degrees.
 
My Carolina Windom noticeably out performed my G5RV set up in the identical configuration.

YMMV
 
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Yup , the G5RV is a good way to get on the air but it's not ever going to be the leader of the pileup! :)
 
Howard, I'd imagine your useable bandwidth is much better on the OCF than the Butternut on the low bands. That's a good set of antennas you have.
 
georgel;n25345 said:
My Carolina Windom noticeably out performed my G5RV set up in the identical configuration.

YMMV
Click to expand...

Your G5RV is now my G5RV LOL.
 
JohnFreeman;n25421 said:
Howard, I'd imagine your useable bandwidth is much better on the OCF than the Butternut on the low bands. That's a good set of antennas you have.
Click to expand...

Yes. The OCF bandwidth is excellent, especially on 80/40/20. The Butternut is good on most bands, but I have it tuned for mid-band on 75M. I learned a lot about the Butternut tuning the bugger. I use the HF9V as my noise antenna with a MFJ-1026 noise canceling device. That setup is great.

My current antenna project is a 80-10M magnetic loop made from .750" LDF and using a Jennings 5kv 10-750 pm vacuum variable. I'm making it remotely tunable using a 30 ram gear motor PWM reversible speed controller. Once perfected I'll put it on a rotator.
 
Lawless;n25960 said:
Your G5RV is now my G5RV LOL.
Click to expand...

Oh, that's where it went. I didn't put 2+2 together. Don't get me wrong, thats a good one and it served me well. I talked all over the world on it, including a guy in Tasmania, but mostly in to Europe. (Italy, France, England, Estonia, etc.) Some people deride them, but they work. Don't forget to wind a 1:1 air balun on the feed line. Unless you want to run a series of chokes. Howard and I both believe it's better to use a form with consistent winds rather than bunched loops, like some do. I think I used a cheese container, because I'm cheap.

Kinda miss the old rig too. It was my first and a work horse. But, now I've found an even older classic rig to play with. With tubes even! Read, another endless project.
 
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OK, I ordered a MFJ-815D cross needle SWR/pwr meter and another LMR400 jumper. I also ordered 2 antenna end insulators for my coming antenna.
I will be working on my grounding setup and want to build a little shelf assembly for everything.

Once I get the station like I want it I am going to get my Balun Designs balun and construct my OCF antenna.
I plan to make it just like Howard's, no sense in reinventing the wheel. Then the NVIS antenna...

mfj-815d_xl.jpg
 
What the heck, I went ahead and ordered my balun, just gotta get some 12 or 10 guage THHN wire from Lowes now.

HF be spensive yo!


4116-1__74254.1481975076.1280.1280.JPG
 
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Lawless said:
What the heck, I went ahead and ordered my balun, just gotta get some 12 or 10 guage THHN wire from Lowes now.

HF be spensive yo!


4116-1__74254.1481975076.1280.1280.JPG
Click to expand...
4 to 1 works good if the apex is under 40 ft. I tried it and had to go with a 6 to 1 for a lower SWR.
 
I am curious why you recommend a 6:1 Balun. Depending on the antenna height, if you transform the impedance too far below 50 ohms, it is much more difficult, if not impossible, for the tuner to match. It is much easier for the tuner to match down than up. At about 35-40 feet height the feed point impedance of an OCF is about 200 ohms.

I'm also curious why you recommend putting a feedline choke just before the radio room and not at the feed point.
 
Raider21;n28604 said:
Save some money and roll your own.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I am building my own OCF 80m antenna. All I need is end insulators (ordered) and wire, as the balun I ordered is the center of the antenna.


Raider21;n28604 said:
I have the 260, works great, you will need a 1 to1 balun at the entrance to your radio shack, coax in to the tuner. DX engineering has the balun for about $110 so you are talking about under $200 for the entire thing.
Click to expand...
The antenna I am building will have the Balun Designs 4:1 at $90, about $30 of wire and $5 for 2 end insulators.
The beauty of a offset center fed antenna is that with the 4:1 balun the coax is pretty close to perfectly matched to the feedline.
This means the tuner will not have to work very hard. The balun I chose has a choke built in so I should not have to worry about any common mode.
It will have a low SWR (no tuner needed) on 80,40, 20 & 10 and will be easily tunable on 30,17, 15, 12....

I am thinking about a straight up 40m dipole for my NVIS antenna I will do next and one of those kits might be a good idea.
I like this kit too and think I will use it for my NVIS build. Gonna put it about 8' in the air so I can talk on HF to my neighbors LOL
 
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htperry said:
I am curious why you recommend a 6:1 Balun. Depending on the antenna height, if you transform the impedance too far below 50 ohms, it is much more difficult, if not impossible, for the tuner to match. It is much easier for the tuner to match down than up. At about 35-40 feet height the feed point impedance of an OCF is about 200 ohms.

I'm also curious why you recommend putting a feedline choke just before the radio room and not at the feed point.
Click to expand...
You are confusing the two types of antennas I am talking about. The OCF impedance varies with height above ground yes, below 40 feet is is closer to 200 ohms, above 40 feet it rises nearer to 300 ohms. I've built and tested both at 40 feet, where mine is located the SWR with the 4 to 1 was as high as 3 to 1 depending on band/frequency. With the 6 to 1 balun it is 2.5 to 1 or less on all bands and no tuner is needed. The other antenna I was speaking of is the Doublet. which is a non resonant length of wire such as 135 feet or 260 feet (half on either side of the feedpoint) an fed with 300 or 450 ohm ladder line. With this antenna a 1 to 1 balun is used to isolate/eliminate RFI in the shack by putting the balun outside and running a short length of coax in to your tuner. I have both types of antennas in use here along with many others.
 
Lawless said:
Raider21;n28604 said:
Save some money and roll your own.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I am building my own OCF 80m antenna. All I need is end insulators (ordered) and wire, as the balun I ordered is the center of the antenna.


Raider21;n28604 said:
I have the 260, works great, you will need a 1 to1 balun at the entrance to your radio shack, coax in to the tuner. DX engineering has the balun for about $110 so you are talking about under $200 for the entire thing.
Click to expand...
The antenna I am building will have the Balun Designs 4:1 at $90, about $30 of wire and $5 for 2 end insulators.
The beauty of a offset center fed antenna is that with the 4:1 balun the coax is pretty close to perfectly matched to the feedline.
This means the tuner will not have to work very hard. The balun I chose has a choke built in so I should not have to worry about any common mode.
It will have a low SWR (no tuner needed) on 80,40, 20 & 10 and will be easily tunable on 30,17, 15, 12....

I am thinking about a straight up 40m dipole for my NVIS antenna I will do next and one of those kits might be a good idea.
I like this kit too and think I will use it for my NVIS build. Gonna put it about 8' in the air so I can talk on HF to my neighbors LOL
Click to expand...
Hold up on building/installing the second antenna. I think you'll find the first one will work in all situations and ranges except for very long range DX requiring very low angle take off.
 
My DX Engineering stuff came yesterday. I like the SWR/power meter. Good size and nice display.

My Balun Designs 4:1 balun came today.

I hope to get the "shack" (which is in reality a barn...) up to snuff shortly.



I read that green and blue are the best wire colors for dipoles to make them hard to see. Thoughts?
 
Lawless;n32706 said:
My DX Engineering stuff came yesterday. I like the SWR/power meter. Good size and nice display.

My Balun Designs 4:1 balun came today.

I hope to get the "shack" (which is in reality a barn...) up to snuff shortly.



I read that green and blue are the best wire colors for dipoles to make them hard to see. Thoughts?
Click to expand...


I can tell you white disappears pretty easily.......
 
Bare copper, once it gets its patina is virtually invisible. Before then, it's bright shining star. :eek:
 
georgel said:
Bare copper, once it gets its patina is virtually invisible. Before then, it's bright shining star. :eek:
Click to expand...
Too much chance of leaf and limb contact in this install, plus a bird or squirrel could make me have a bad day.
 
Remembered my wire when I was in Lowes today. I got a 500' roll of blue 12G stranded.
This should be enough to make 3 or more antennas.
Prolly won't get to mess with it over the weekend due to the weather though.
 
I am going to try to measure out the wire for my antenna today. htperry how long of a "tail" on each end for adjustments should I leave? Maybe a foot on the short side and 2 on the long? Or do you think it will be fine at the established lengths for 80m (cut to be resonant in the voice portion, see diagram)? The finished length should be the below, not counting what little length it takes for attaching to the balun and end insulators right?

OCF_Diagram.gif
 
I started with 1 foot additional on the short end and two feet additional on the long end. Be sure to trim in the same proportions. If you take 1" off the short, take 2" off the long.
 
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