Cutting Edge Bullets

Michael458

Michael458

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I thought maybe some of you might like to see some more about Cutting Edge Bullets, after our discussion about the 300 BLK this past week.........

Here is direct link to the Website;

https://cuttingedgebullets.com

Here is a video from the website you might like........

You will see at 5:30 in the video the Safari Raptors and Safari Solids. Those bullets were developed here from scratch. Many thousands of bullets were tested here to get to this point. The Big Bore bullets were such a success, and so good, that all of the Raptors from 223 up were off shoots of the design of the Safari Raptors and almost all of them tested here before going into production. There were some calibers not tested here, those were tested by CEB in house. Calibers from above 6.5 and less than .308 were not tested here, as I have nothing to test with in those calibers, and not interested in them anyway. From .308 up to .620 were all tested here, except for .375 caliber which is another caliber I detest.

With the success of the Rifle bullets, CEB developed all the handgun bullets on their own, still using the same technology we used for the rifle bullets. They did an excellent job of it as well........

We also worked very close with North Fork Technologies on many of the big bore bullets they now have, recently sold to a company in Sweden, but the bullets are still going to be available.

Anyway, hopefully you can learn something from this as well...................

 
Thanks for sharing Michael
 
Let me tell you what Mike will Not. Every one of the bullets shown in that film was developed by him at The B&M Rifle HQ. The ESP Raptors were among the first designed and at the time about the only precision projectiles that could be loaded either as a HP or Solid simply by turning it over. I always said that alone was evidence he didn't care about making money off his research. Nobody that was in it for money would let you have both in one bullet.
He spent thousands of hours perfecting the correct meplat to diameter proportions. JD Jones told us when visiting B&M that Mike had done more to help Big Bore shooters than had been done in the last 50 years. JD knows a few things. All you 300 Blackout shooters should know that he did that Many years ago.
In any event Mike has spent untold Thousands of dollars and uncalculatable man hours worth even more money to develop what is readily acknowledged as the finest Terminal Ballistic projectiles made to date.
When folks ask what my part in this project consisted of my answer is always the same....Hell, I wanted a 50 caliber bolt rifle that had a 16-18 inch barrel, weighed 6 pounds all up and had more "thump" than Anything made at the time. 500+ Grains and over 2,200 FPS.
These little rifles have to be seen and held to "get it". 36 inches overall, 6 pounds with irons....easy peasy. I mean really all Mike supplied in total was a Quarter Million Dollars, more than that in time and I got my rifle. What's not to like about that???
 
ronn47 said:
We're always up for an "Interesting" story.
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B00ger said:
So...you like Big Beautiful Women so much you went through 13 of em..
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BBW #13 Solids.....................

My Test Partner, Friend, shooter, and big game hunter Sam Rose were testing and tweaking the designs of the solids for months on end. In search of the magic formula that makes Solid Projectiles Penetrate not only deep, but give Dead Straight Line Penetration during Terminals.

Solids? Well, I know most of you don't realize just how important Solid Bullets are when it comes to hunting large and dangerous game, and especially Elephant, Hippo and Buffalo. A big bore Solid bullet is required for these big thick skinned animals. Solids are the most important component of a hunt in these scenarios. For a 100+ years they have been available in the form of a Round Nose Full Metal Jackets, such as from Woodleigh and Hornady. Later Round Nose monolithic from Barnes and some others. The problem is, a Round Nose projectile is NOT Terminally Stable during penetration Once a Solid starts to penetrate Aqueous material, they become "Front End Drives", the front end determines their stability. Round Nose projectiles veer off course at some point, and there is no way to predict at what point they become unstable. It could be 10 inches, or 30 inches, but they will veer off course every time at some point. In the instance of an elephant, much of the time they may stay on course long enough to get the job done, but far too many times they may veer off course before reaching the brain or other vitals. I have seen Round Nose Solids turn 90 degrees and exit before reaching vitals.

So we were in search of the Perfect Solid, one that Would not veer off course, one that was 100% Terminally Stable, one that would penetrate straight and deep, one that would crunch and munch bone along the way, and still accomplish the mission you asked of it.

This endeavor ended up being the biggest study that has ever been done for Solid Bullet Technology. And the things and Factors of terminal penetration we learned had never been known or discovered, or cared about before. We tread ground that had never been tread. We discovered and learned things that had never been known.

This endeavor involved months of tests, 1000s of solids fired, so many different designs I can't even count. We were shooting two to three days a week for months on end, testing designs, tweaking designs, bands, nose profiles, meplat size, nose projections, and things you would never think about. Sam was a Genius and had his on lathe and was good at making bullets with it. We would test something, he would go home and tweak the designs and changes we learned in the test work, and always making a new tweak or design for us to try. If he could not make it back for a test session, he dropped them in the mail. I was getting several packages a week sometimes with test bullets. So much so, I could not load and keep up.

One day I got a batch, and accused him of using a "Bastard File" to make the bullets. This turned into me telling him that he, We, should open a new Bullet Business....... We could call it "Bastard Bullet Works".......... BBW for Short!

In the final designs of the Nose Profile of the Current Safari Solid, we tested angles off the nose from 10 degrees to 20 degrees. We learned in those tests that The very best angle off the nose was from 11 degrees to 15 degrees was good, outside of this the bullets were squirrelly. We decided to somewhat split the difference and we went with 13 Degree Angle off the nose as Optimum, or damn close to it.

Dan Smitchko with Cutting Edge Bullets had been assisting us all along. When we thought we needed more than just a few bullets that Sam could make on the lathe, Dan would help us make some smaller lots at 25 bullets. Without his help, it would have taken twice the time to reach our goals.

Sam and I are not and didn't want to be in the bullet business at all. Both of us wanted, and needed good bullets to go to the field with. In my case, I needed true .500 caliber bullets for the various B&M rifles in true .500 caliber. There were none at the time, only bullets for the 500 S&W, and those were not and are not suitable for the missions we intended for the .500 caliber B&M Rifles. So good bullets were vital to the mission required. After we finally tweaked the Solid bullet, after Sam and I got the right Formula we were very pleased, and called Dan that very day with the news. We have it! We have the Perfect Solid now! Dan had been following the work daily, and weekly from the beginning. He asked how much we wanted for the design! We told him nothing, it was his as he had helped us from the beginning. He was astounded at that I think. We were good friends by now too anyway. But then he said don't worry, I will make bullets for you and Sam for life, no charge!
Sam and I nearly passed out. Then I laughed, and told Dan how much we appreciated that thought, however there was a major problem with it. " First, I need the damn bullets. If you make them free for Sam and myself, you are not going to be in business a year from now, you will be bankrupt!" We kindly refused the offer, and I still tease Dan about that. We were shooting 1000s on top of 1000s of bullets it would bankrupt any small business. We do however get really good prices on the bullets, and I always order in bulk too to ease the burdens.

Dan agreed, and then asked what we wanted to call the bullet? The Name? I was on the phone with Dan, looked at Sam, smiled and said the official name of the Solid is "BBW#13" Some years later Dan really needed a more catchy name, so it became the Safari Solid BBW#13 Design.....

And there you have it, "The Rest of the Story".......................
 
Awesome story Michael. Like I said before, I could listen to this stuff all day, lol. It's amazing that so many "little" tweaks can make such a difference in something relatively small as a bullet. Again, thanks for the story.
 
Stick Man said:
Awesome story Michael. Like I said before, I could listen to this stuff all day, lol. It's amazing that so many "little" tweaks can make such a difference in something relatively small as a bullet. Again, thanks for the story.
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Do NOT encourage this behavior. He will always outlast your ability to listen....Beware!!!
 
@Michael458 and @BatteryOaksBilly :

This is some seriously impressive info! Thank you very much for sharing it, and - more importantly - for having done so much heavy lifting on our behalf! This is the first time in decades that I really regret that I stopped reloading. CEB sells a limited line of loaded ammo; any idea if they are going to expand their offerings, or if they are partnered with a commercial ammo manufacturer? I do not have the monetary resources to get back into reloading at this late stage, so I am going to have to rely on commercial offerings. Again, words cannot express my admiration for your efforts.
 
The ESP "Enhanced System Projectile" came much after the Safari Solids and Safari Raptors. You see the work was not done by a long shot, after the Solids were perfected, we immediately began work on the Raptors. Back in the beginning, they did not have a name, we called them "Non-Conventional Projectiles or bullets" . Non-Conventional because they did not adhere or behave like "conventional expanding bullets" Non-Cons for short. Dan came up with Raptors, which I LOVE, much later on.

We thought about just how neat it would be, to have a bullet that could be used on one side as a Solid, and the other side as a Non-Con, or Hollow Point trauma inflicting bullet! Just how would that work? With a #13 Nose Profile, the Solid portion was almost like a Boat Tail, when loaded as a Non Con, or Raptor.

The very first small batch we did was in .308 caliber and 130 gr bullet. The Solid end was really good,, it had a nice long Nose Projection which is needed in depth of penetration. The Hollow Point end was also good. Without looking up the data, I actually forget whether I tested those in 308 Win or 300 Win, but probably both, and later in 30/30 as well. In the very first tests, I shot the Solid end first, then I recovered the bullets, collected the data, and loaded them AGAIN as Hollow Points or "Raptors" and actually shot the same bullet twice for the two tests....................

Now there are ESP Raptors in most calibers. However, they are a BITCH to sort out, and rather difficult to load sometimes. There are a few of the ESPs that I really like, but for the most part I rather have a Flat Base Raptor and Flat Base Solid for most applications.

One that I do like was the very first .308 caliber ESP at 130 gr. It actually makes a very good 30/30 bullet, when not using the Raptor end with a Talon Tip. I like the Solid end a lot for .308 caliber. There is a 338 ESP I believe that is pretty good as well. I have used the 350 gr .500 caliber ESP quite a bit in the field for plains game, and even in Australia for buffalo. That 500 MDM will run that at 2750 fps and its a HAMMER.

One thing interesting about the ESP loaded as a Solid, you have that big hollow point down, creating a Hollow Base Bullet. These are very interesting, and actually need to be studied more. But, think about "Increased Internal Case Capacity" with the Hollow Base? Yes, you would be correct if you thought about decreased pressures, and other odd things that happen with that. We did some work with Hollow Base Bullets during the development of the solids. We learned that you could take the same exact Solid, put a hollow base in. This makes the projectile lighter, and reduces Sectional Density, which should decrease the depth of penetration. Same exact bullet, only hollow base, lighter, and at the same velocity penetrates the same distance as the heavier bullet? Time after time! It should not, but it does. Therefore, with the increased case capacity and lower pressures, you can add powder, increase pressures and velocity, and get deeper penetration because of increased velocity with the same physical size bullet! Hmmmm? Raises questions that requires more work to be done. However, by the time everything else was completed, this was put to the side. I still think about it, I still think we should investigate, but these days I am a little lazy for such an endeavor............
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
Do NOT encourage this behavior. He will always outlast your ability to listen....Beware!!!
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HEH HEH........ Oh yes, there is much much more to be told....... LOL.............

Stick Man said:
It's amazing that so many "little" tweaks can make such a difference in something relatively small as a bullet
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Thanks for the kind remarks, much appreciated from all of you.

Tweaks...... It is amazing, even to me. On this next post, I am going to show you the 8 Factors of Solid Penetration, and how they effect how a Solid bullet works, and what is essential for Deep Straight Line Penetration..................

Then Later, we might have a short discussion on how Raptors, Or Non-Conventional Bullets work, and why they do what they do.

Fist the Solids........
 
There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....


#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber

Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........


#2 Nose Profile

There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........


#3 Construction & Material

Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.


#4 Nose Projection

Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.



#5 Radius Edge of Meplat

We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......


All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........




#6 Velocity

Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........


#7 Barrel Twist Rate

Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......



#8 Sectional Density

Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............




These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................
 
JT said:
any idea if they are going to expand their offerings, or if they are partnered with a commercial ammo manufacturer? I do not have the monetary resources to get back into reloading at this late stage, so I am going to have to rely on commercial offerings. Again, words cannot express my admiration for your efforts.
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Good morning JT...

I don't really know at this point, but seriously doubt there will be new offerings of loaded ammo. I don't keep up like I used to as close, and I only speak with Dan every month or two these days, in particular mostly when I need some bulk supplies. Check further on the website, there may be something there, and I know some small ammo manufacturer was loading CEBs, but I forget exactly which one? I will look for that as well later.

Another source I know would be Superior Ammo in Summerville SC. I know Lonnie well, and have helped him on several projects since he Bought Superior, so he can custom load ammo for you if you want. If it is something I load or have loaded, I can give you or Lonnie the load information as well. Whatever it is, I am sure we can find a solution to it.
 
Michael, thanks for all the info you share with us.
This is interesting to me learning a little about something I have no personal experience working with.
Ron
 
ronn47 said:
Michael, thanks for all the info you share with us.
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You are welcome. I love bullets! Interesting to me too..........

When I first began this endeavor I received a lot of push back from the old conventional crowd! I knew that once these got in the field that the old conventional ways would fall to the side. In the beginning they would always try to defend the old traditional bullets by all sorts of excuses. "They have worked for a 100 Years" "So and So used RN Solids to kill hundreds of Elephants, good enough for Me" "The new bullets just don't look good in my double rifles" and all sorts of excuses they could come up with. Then after seeing how good they did work, that same crowd came up with, "They are Too Good" "Penetrate too much and have to be careful about hitting animals on the other side" and now the bullets were too good! HEH HEH.

Today, these same bullets are becoming "The Bullet to go to"...... very satisfying results to read about so many guys using them and with incredible success.
 
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Pink_Vapor said:
Thanks for sharing with us, why the .375 hate?
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This is the caliber/cartridge that all Newbie, Amateur African hunters lean towards. Its the caliber/cartridge they choose because they are not willing to put the effort into learning how to work with true Big Bore Rifles. They fall back on the excuse that .375 is good for everything and is best "all around"........ I can tell you, it is a PISS POOR stopping caliber, damn near useless. Buffalo pay very little attention to getting hit with .375 caliber bullets! Kill them? Of course it will, anything thru the heart lungs will eventually kill them. But getting their attention and stopping hostile actions... LOL... No.......... And then, those Newbie Amateurs believe and boast about "How Powerful" their rifle is. Gives me a nasty taste in my mouth. Many PH's recommendations are also 375 for the simple reason they know most Newbie Amateurs won't put the time into learning how to shoot. 99% of the time used by know nothing, and even sometimes loud mouth idiots.

I don't really care much for calibers/cartridges between .224 and .308. Another detest is 7mm. Much the same reason, back in the days when I used to hang out at gun shops and hear much stupid crap, every redneck hillbilly know it all wanted or had a 7mm Mag. Most powerful rifle cartridge ever invented, so powerful it could take down elephants and turn them to mush! Yeah, Ok! Don't care for 270 because I grew up with Elmer Keith as my shooting hero, and not Jack O'Conner! We see who even knows who those guys are here on the forum??? Ironically a few years ago I became acquainted with Jack O'Conners Son. We had a good deal of correspondence, and he even sent me a special addition of one of his Dad's books. Naturally I could never speak of not being a fan. I accepted the book of course and very proud to have it, although I don't recall reading it yet. Very nice fellow, getting up in age himself at the time.

When it comes down to it, probably nothing really wrong with any of the calibers/cartridges, when used properly of course with the right bullets, for the right sort of animals. For me it is just a "Personal Prejudice" based on the experiences above.
 
Michael458 said:
This is the caliber/cartridge that all Newbie, Amateur African hunters lean towards. Its the caliber/cartridge they choose because they are not willing to put the effort into learning how to work with true Big Bore Rifles. They fall back on the excuse that .375 is good for everything and is best "all around"........ I can tell you, it is a PISS POOR stopping caliber, damn near useless. Buffalo pay very little attention to getting hit with .375 caliber bullets! Kill them? Of course it will, anything thru the heart lungs will eventually kill them. But getting their attention and stopping hostile actions... LOL... No.......... And then, those Newbie Amateurs believe and boast about "How Powerful" their rifle is. Gives me a nasty taste in my mouth. Many PH's recommendations are also 375 for the simple reason they know most Newbie Amateurs won't put the time into learning how to shoot. 99% of the time used by know nothing, and even sometimes loud mouth idiots.

I don't really care much for calibers/cartridges between .224 and .308. Another detest is 7mm. Much the same reason, back in the days when I used to hang out at gun shops and hear much stupid crap, every redneck hillbilly know it all wanted or had a 7mm Mag. Most powerful rifle cartridge ever invented, so powerful it could take down elephants and turn them to mush! Yeah, Ok! Don't care for 270 because I grew up with Elmer Keith as my shooting hero, and not Jack O'Conner! We see who even knows who those guys are here on the forum??? Ironically a few years ago I became acquainted with Jack O'Conners Son. We had a good deal of correspondence, and he even sent me a special addition of one of his Dad's books. Naturally I could never speak of not being a fan. I accepted the book of course and very proud to have it, although I don't recall reading it yet. Very nice fellow, getting up in age himself at the time.

When it comes down to it, probably nothing really wrong with any of the calibers/cartridges, when used properly of course with the right bullets, for the right sort of animals. For me it is just a "Personal Prejudice" based on the experiences above.
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Gotcha.
I haven’t hunted large dangerous game, love my 7-08 for deer, along with my 300BLK, and felt a 358 Win is a great hog and brush cartridge for around here.
 
Pink_Vapor said:
felt a 358 Win is a great hog and brush cartridge for around here.
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I have always been a bit .358 caliber fan..... Always wanted a Win M70 358 Win. Had one built several years ago, excellent little rifle, 18 inch Feather Weight. Honestly, got a little bored with it, and quit messing with it, sold it.....

Want to talk about a wicked bullet that would work well in your 358 is the 150 Raptor. But, what is the Rifle Platform you have???

I still have 358 STA and had a 358 Ultra built, Running 150 Raptors out of the 358 Ultra at 3700 fps.... Wicked............
 
Michael458 said:
I have always been a bit .358 caliber fan..... Always wanted a Win M70 358 Win. Had one built several years ago, excellent little rifle, 18 inch Feather Weight. Honestly, got a little bored with it, and quit messing with it, sold it.....

Want to talk about a wicked bullet that would work well in your 358 is the 150 Raptor. But, what is the Rifle Platform you have???

I still have 358 STA and had a 358 Ultra built, Running 150 Raptors out of the 358 Ultra at 3700 fps.... Wicked............
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I never got one, I wanted what you had, an 18” Win 70, then Sako came out with the M75.
 
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