EDC: to laser or not to laser?

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jfanatic

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Hoping this is the correct forum thread: Wondering what your thoughts are regarding lasers incorporated into your EDC or not. I'm honestly on the fence about this as the laser grip(s) on my J-frame EDC adds unnecessary weight and bulk, but likely an unnecessary "reassurance". So, what say thee.............?
 
I’ll start. I have a laser/light on my nightstand gun. My reason is that a crash/bump in the night and I don’t have time to get my glasses, I consider the laser to be a big assist. I haven’t consulted Maas, Garand Thumb, MRGunsandgear so I could be wrong…..
 
I hear 'ya and it is somehow reassuring, fallacy or otherwise. So what if your/our EDC plays a dual role, EDC and nightstand (not saying mine does). So if we are talking dead of night, does the laser give away ones position? Again, not saying any of this is my scenario specifically, but do want to compel the group.
 
jfanatic said:
I hear 'ya and it is somehow reassuring, fallacy or otherwise. So what if your/our EDC plays a dual role, EDC and nightstand (not saying mine does). So if we are talking dead of night, does the laser give away ones position? Again, not saying any of this is my scenario specifically, but do want to compel the group.
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Yep and it's not hard to blind yourself temporarily with it in the dark by passing it over a reflective surface.
 
I would rather have a good set of fresh night sights on my handgun.
 
In the dark even tritium can look blurry without correction.I will keep my finger off the on switch until I need it. ThenI hope it’s too late for whomever. That’s how it plays out in my head. Again, I could be wrong….Jfanatic, do you wear glasses?
 
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Pops said:
In the dark even tritium can look blurry without correction.I will keep my finger off the on switch until I need it. ThenI hope it’s too late for whomever. That’s how it plays out in my head. Again, I could be wrong….Jfanatic, do you wear glasses?
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Pops: I do not on a regular basis. About mid-to late day, after looking at "x" number of finance spreads sheets on a screen, I'll pop 'em on.........this is corrected however by ensuring that I am well hydrated.
 
I guess I see no real negative to having one any more than having a light on an edc. If you ever need it, it will be nice to have, and if you don’t need it just don’t use it.
 
jfanatic said:
Hoping this is the correct forum thread: Wondering what your thoughts are regarding lasers incorporated into your EDC or not. I'm honestly on the fence about this as the laser grip(s) on my J-frame EDC adds unnecessary weight and bulk, but likely an unnecessary "reassurance". So, what say thee.............?
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Neither of mine are equipped with a laser. I will say, though, that my mom has CT grips on her 642. Due to her age (71) and eyesight, I can see the advantages of having them on her weapon.
 
B00ger said:
I guess I see no real negative to having one any more than having a light on an edc. If you ever need it, it will be nice to have, and if you don’t need it just don’t use it.
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As @JBoyette pointed put in a conversation, you’ll want a light to identify targets in the dark and a laser to aim, or something to that effect.they make EDC lights that are a combination of both. Something to consider.
 
noway2 said:
As @JBoyette pointed put in a conversation, you’ll want a light to identify targets in the dark and a laser to aim, or something to that effect.they make EDC lights that are a combination of both. Something to consider.
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I like having options. Whether needed or not. Having a light/laser won’t hurt, unless used wrong.
 
Nope … live by the K.I.S.S. when it comes to split second actions. Practice/train basics ‘til it’s ingrained and the pray you never need it.
 
I don’t live in a stash house and I have an alarm system plus a dog. Anyone coming in isn’t likely to intend to be shooting me, so I have a couple advantages, I have a clear mindset, I know the place in the dark, and my eyes are pretty well adjusted to the dim lighting. My thinking is that a laser costs me some advantage. My plan is not to hunt, but to wait, the family is safe until you cross a particular spot, my job is simply to be prepared to defend that spot before the bad guy crosses it. Yes there is stuff they could take and I won’t stop them, it’s not worth giving up my position.

For EDC, I tried a laser at the range and it seemed slower, but it was new and I wasn’t into it anyway so I’m sure it was self induced and probably could be trained around. My concern was/is that I can always find my sights, but what if I can’t find the dot, do I look for it, do I look for sights, do I trust muscle memory to be on target and fire or do I second guess myself in the moment.

No real world experience, just my thoughts. Oh, unless you have NV, then IR laser on a carbine at home.
 
Let's have a conversation. And I will bracket this in a way that shows how a laser is helpful. For starters, a laser is a third aiming device; the first is sights, the second is body position, and the last option is a laser.
How does a laser help? Only in the fringes, as a few examples.
  1. You are in a situation and have a firearm in your primary hand and need to open a door. Once that door is open, you can use the laser to aim and white light to identify the target before a primary presentation is created.
  2. You have suspect one under the gun, "the barrel pointed at his body," and you need to focus your vision on your environment. Bad guys can travel in packs; the laser allows you to not look through the sights on the firearm, you can keep an accurate laser/firearm pointed at the most impactful area on the detained suspect. All the while, as you are heads up, looking for more trouble in the environment.
  3. You are in a non-standard shooting position, supine, roll-over prone, or wounded. You cannot build a proper presentation that allows the use of the sights, so the laser aids you in raising your precision of bullet impacts.
  4. You are with your spouse/teammate, and the situation requires you two, or three, or more to have your firearm pointed are areas of interest. The visual of a laser pointed at X allows your team member to point at Y.
None of these four points are ideas or theories from me. All of them are real situations. In real life, I use a whitelight/laser combo to enhance my survivability.

Now, let's go down a training realism. When in a self-defense situation, you focus on the threat. You will not take your eyes off that threat when the situation elevates to a lethal encounter! Returning to the three types of aiming devices, the primary is the sights; the secondary is your body position. The third is a laser. When you are focused on the threat, it's not hard at all to see the laser dot on their body. Once it's in a suitable location, hammer them. IF you are using the primary sights to aim, the laser is a non-point, you really will not even see it as you develop a sight picture. BUT, if you do see the laser, you can start shooting sooner as you move into your sights.

Using a laser as a third aiming tool:
- This means that primary aiming failed
- Also, secondary aiming failed

The laser is your last line of accuracy. Every one of these situations, you can activate the laser with your white light. However, you must be able to identify the threat from the non-threat. It's not always so easy as your imagination has drummed up. This is why a whitelight/laser combo is the best solution. You press the button, and both activate at the same time.

I will take every advantage I can have in any situation.

We at Division Arms, support the Streamlight, ProTac Rail Mount HL-X Laser for home defense firearms. That sight / laser combo is proven.
 
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Research I've read and have been involved with several years back suggests that even iron sights are hardly used in shooting incidents. Even weapon mounted lights were hardly used when they (arguably) could have helped. Not too sure about red dot sights and lasers, but I'd guess they would also have a limited use.
 
Dan0311 said:
Research I've read and have been involved with several years back suggests that even iron sights are hardly used in shooting incidents. Even weapon mounted lights were hardly used when they (arguably) could have helped. Not too sure about red dot sights and lasers, but I'd guess they would also have a limited use.
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Ok, what situations are you talking about?

Bad breath distance?

Yeah, sure fully agree, but not all situations happen between 6 inches and 5 feet.
 
JBoyette said:
Ok, what situations are you talking about?

Bad breath distance?

Yeah, sure fully agree, but not all situations happen between 6 inches and 5 feet.
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The research was from every distance that there were armed encounters in that study, I don't remember the longest/shortest/average. The info was taken from all encounters in a given period (one year?). Most involved were moving and shooting while the target was moving and shooting. Of course most encounters were from closer ranges, as is the norm. Moving, often laterally toward cover, and shooting at a moving target hurts sight picture, sight alignment, and plays hell with "shot placement".
 
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Dan0311 said:
The research was from every distance that there were armed encounters in that study, I don't remember the longest/shortest/average. Most involved were moving and shooting while the target was moving and shooting. Of course most encounters were from closer ranges, as is the norm. Moving, often laterally toward cover, and shooting at a moving target hurts sight picture, sight alignment, and plays hell with "shot placement".
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Yes sir,
Fully agree with you. the goal is to move to point B from point A quickly in such situations. It takes a lot and I mean a lot to get good at moving and shooting in a gunfight. Moving and shooting is easier when the threat is not shooting back.
 
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JBoyette said:
Yes sir,
Fully agree with you. the goal is to move to point B from point A quickly in such situations. It takes a lot and I mean a lot to get good at moving and shooting in a gunfight. Moving and shooting is easier when the threat is not shooting back.
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When I used to train outside agencies, part of the day was to engage target(s) while moving to cover. For the vast majority of shooters, even competition shooters, this was the first time they ever did that sort of thing. Then it totally blew their mind when we made the target move laterally. Their rounds downrange were more like 'covering fire' than anything else. They were so used to static shooting - having to move and shoot or having the target move while engaging is a whole other world. Having the target shooting back at the same time is another universe. SIghts? What sights? :)
 
I ain't a high speed low drag dude by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not an instructor even though I've taught a whole bunch of people to shoot. Nor do I claim to be any sort of expert.

All of that said, I used to be "anti-laser" because I felt you should be using the sights. I've always been in favor of a weapon light. Well, a weapon light "gives away your position" or whatever you wanna call it. If you have a laser that is always on the entire time you've got the gun in your hand, like those Crimson Trace grips, that's another issue. But, if you can turn the thing off and on along with the light, that's a good thing.

What ultimately changed my mind about lasers was teaching older people to shoot. The folks that come to me are not young fellas that are in good shape. It is normally older folks that find my approach to be less intimidating. When working with those well-seasoned individuals out on the range, I found that many of them could not see very well. Some had bifocals. Some had corrected vision but quite frankly were still unable to see anything very well within arms reach. Getting them to get a good sight picture was a challenge.

The laser was better. I'm not going to say it was a world beater because those same people weren't exactly the steadiest hands you've ever seen. The laser was shaking quite a bit for some of them. But they could actually use it and make hits center of mass. Most importantly, it gave them confidence where a lot of what I"ll call mental arithmetic was stymieing them when they had three focal planes to deal with: rear sight, front sight, target.

When discussing concealed carry pistols, I found that most of them wanted to pocket carry. Not what I recommend honestly but I have to work within their parameters. Most of them already had purchased their firearms when they probably should have shot my guns and THEN went shopping.

Those that ultimately picked a bedside table pistol usually ended up with a weapon mounted Streamlight light/laser combo of some kind. Trying to get them to come to the range to practice a bit in the dark has always been difficult. I've always been pretty up front about the fact that I teach fundamentals and if they want anything more advanced they need to actually pay for a professional instructor.
 
I just shot a competition yesterday and most of the match was moving and shooting. On only one stage you stood in a static position to engage targets.
Pretty rare to have movement and moving targets, too. But it does happen in 3gun and uspsa very often.
 
I had a laser on my m&p shield 2.0. It was the built into the frame kind. I didn't care for it. You had to turn it on by pressing a button. I'm not likely gonna turn it on before the fight (not giving away my position and all that) and I don't see how I'm gonna have time to turn it on in the middle of the fight, or even have the wherewithall to think about it. Aiming the gun down the sights was just more intuitive to me.

All the rail-attachable lasers I've seen have had problems staying zeroed. Not sure which of those were Amazon chinesium or what. So I'm thinking you gotta, at the very least, buy a quality one.
 
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