Explosion at Manchester Arena during concert

I am not the US govt. I have little to no say in the policies and actions it pushes. This is because I'm not part of what Hitler used to call the bourgeoise class, which is effectively the same thing as what @Lawless or rather the author quoted was referring to in his daily push thread in respect to those that are the deep state in DC. They absolutely and fundamentally do not represent the population of this nation and this is not a left/right dim/repug issue as they look down on everyone outside of their elite circle.

Here is the problem: because of the actions of this group, the populace here and in countries of our cultural cousins are being attacked by a populace of a nation that has declared war on us even if their official bourgeoise government has not. Unfortunately, this makes our bourgeoise just as much our enemy and as we've said in other threads, their day of reckoning is coming, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stand by and tolerate a bunch of inferior goat fornicating zeros, carry out these acts against our civilians who have no influence in the matter. I would rather leave them alone and stay out of their giant litter box, but if they're going to insist on coming here and making a statement I will willingly erase them from the planet if that's what it takes.

For all the talk about religious rights and everything, the constitution has already been shredded by the bourgeoise. Let's not let them use it as a noose around our necks. We are under no obligation to tolerate the muzzies, let them build mosques here or let them practice their bastardized religion in our territory. Let's round them up and show them what it means to really be terrorized - right out of existence, if that is what is is going to take. Let it be known that the choice is there's to make.
 
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SPM said:
What do you suppose regime change is?

Iran in the 50s?
Grenada and Nicaragua?
Iraq, Libya, and now Syria?

I'm not saying the Sailors, Marines, Soldiers and Airmen were the ones fighting for political goals.

Those that sent them were, and are. Hence the State sponsorship piece.

No, they aren't going to tell us that's why we're there (I deployed multiple times for OIF/OEF, both at sea and on the ground, so I'm not speaking out of turn). It's "aiding the drug cartels" or it's "weapons of mass destruction," or it's "Qaddafi tortured his own people" or it's "Assad gassed his own people."

Those are not reasons a country goes to war. Countries go to war for political, economic, and social goals.

They dress it up in romanticized language to ensure we proudly send our sons and daughters to die in it while enslaving our grandchildren with the debt in treasure.

And we do so, waving the flag and singing"God Bless America" while putting our dickskinners in all kinds of cookie jars they don't belong in with the self-righteous assurance that a government comprised of people who LIE to us daily are somehow virtuous and truthful about why we should go kill half-literate goat f#+ker's thousands of miles away that pose no real, creditable danger to these United States except as a result of the decisions made by the suits in Washington.
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Not sure the last time we bombed a nightclub, highjacked a plane, or cut off some heads on Youtube. I also recall ROEs so utterly restrictive to be operationally useless. We see it from different perspectives, and I am OK declaring a modus vivendi and move on.
 
The difference, albeit non-existent to the victims, is collateral damage and intended damage.

When "we" send a tomahawk to a house in burkaburkaville Iraq to kills Muji Muhajedin the leader of ISIS and others are killed it's because combatants have decided to hide out with civilians because they know the political currency they will gain. The pictures SPM posted is exactly that. They know that people will look at them with horror, but forget that in many cases those innocents were being used as human shields.

On the contrary, when they hit us back they go after our most vulnerable >on purpose< most of the time. They go into gay night clubs, concerts filled with children, schools in the balkans, and other places where "the crusaders" as Isis called them aren't a bunch of meat eating grunts, they are fidget spinning children watching a musician.

I don't condone any of the violence either way. But saying "we are no better because we kill innocents too" is missing out on the fact that "WE" don't target the innocent. But THEY do. And moreso THEY use innocents as shields and media fodder to gain support.

I in no way dispute that THEY use the currency gained by hiding behind innocents who are killed when they are targeted. This does lead to recruits. But that is even further proof of the manipulation that goes on.


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SPM, I know you mean well, and it sucks to see children in these situations, but unfortunately, children growing up in Islamic countries are often not children as we know them in the West. Women and children can carry suicide vests too.

This is a different war, and the reason the fundamentalist muzzies are winning is because they count on people's good intentions to further their cause.

If it's them or us, it's gonna be them.

Defending yourself is not becoming the enemy you hate.

I could tell you all some fun stories about Chicago and Detroit muzzies, including their punk kids.
 
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Guys,

In all these posts the moral high ground is mesured by how tall you stack the bodies.

For both sides.

The only way any of this will end is when we the US of A stop having assets worth protecting over seas.

Once we quit playing with others, lock this country down, and we can watch it all burn outside of our own boarders.

It's the only way.
 
JBoyette said:
Guys,

In all these posts the moral high ground is mesured by how tall you stack the bodies.
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Tell me another story about slaying bodies, John. Your bed time stories are the BEST :D


VrM7u8S.jpg
 
B00ger said:
The difference, albeit non-existent to the victims, is collateral damage and intended damage.

When "we" send a tomahawk to a house in burkaburkaville Iraq to kills Muji Muhajedin the leader of ISIS and others are killed it's because combatants have decided to hide out with civilians because they know the political currency they will gain. The pictures SPM posted is exactly that. They know that people will look at them with horror, but forget that in many cases those innocents were being used as human shields.

On the contrary, when they hit us back they go after our most vulnerable >on purpose< most of the time. They go into gay night clubs, concerts filled with children, schools in the balkans, and other places where "the crusaders" as Isis called them aren't a bunch of meat eating grunts, they are fidget spinning children watching a musician.

I don't condone any of the violence either way. But saying "we are no better because we kill innocents too" is missing out on the fact that "WE" don't target the innocent. But THEY do. And moreso THEY use innocents as shields and media fodder to gain support.

I in no way dispute that THEY use the currency gained by hiding behind innocents who are killed when they are targeted. This does lead to recruits. But that is even further proof of the manipulation that goes on.


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We, the People don't target civilians.

They, the government does.

We bomb weddings and funerals. They can say they're after the 1 jihadi at the party, but the several hundred not-jihadis make that little more than semantics.

I know what you're saying. But I'm saying we aren't the government, and the government is not us.

The government does a great deal of evil in our name without our permission.
 
SPM said:
We, the People don't target civilians.

They, the government does.

We bomb weddings and funerals. They can say they're after the 1 jihadi at the party, but the several hundred not-jihadis make that little more than semantics.

I know what you're saying. But I'm saying we aren't the government, and the government is not us.

The government does a great deal of evil in our name without our permission.
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Oh, I totally agree. It is a matter of semantics that doesn't really matter to those killed. But in the "grand scheme of things" at least we have a "military" target, and weddings and funerals aren't a "normal" target. Their "normal" targets are the most vulnerable.

While I am not a gung ho "we never do anything wrong" flag waver, I do believe that at least at a certain level the military has some level of restraint when it comes to civilian targets. Just ask some veterans and their "shoot/noshoot" requirements.
 
IrishCannon said:
SPM, I know you mean well, and it sucks to see children in these situations, but unfortunately, children growing up in Islamic countries are often not children as we know them in the West. Women and children can carry suicide vests too.

This is a different war, and the reason the fundamentalist muzzies are winning is because they count on people's good intentions to further their cause.

If it's them or us, it's gonna be them.

Defending yourself is not becoming the enemy you hate.

I could tell you all some fun stories about Chicago and Detroit muzzies, including their punk kids.
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What does Libya or Syria have to do with defending these United States?

Serious question.

For that matter, what did Iraq have to do with defending these United States?
 
SPM said:
A completely honest view of American foreign policy towards the Middle East since World War II would have to accept that the United States government is a State sponsor of terrorism.

Before folks get their jimmies in a wad (or hell, afterwards - the truth doesn't care about one's feelings), take a breath and think about it objectively.

Fundamentally, a Hellfire, GBU-38 (JDAM) OR Tomahawk that kills predominantly women and children, seemingly at random, unleashed by one country against another in which they are not at war is no different than a suicide bomber or car bomb or pressure cooker bomb to the guy that has to bury his wife or children.

If the Chinese were targeting "radicalized Americans" as "terrorists" who maybe posted to websites calling for the destruction of China, drone struck a house of one and your kid was playing in the yard and was also killed - in your mind, it that just unfortunate collateral damage or terrorism? Especially if those strikes result in 40-50 unrelated deaths for every "radicalized American" killed?

I certainly think Western foreign policy in general and American foreign policy in particular has lead to Americans being targeted by jihadis - it's called blowback, and regardless of our government's position that it doesn't exist and we're the "good guys," the recipients of American "good will" certainly don't feel that way, just as we would feel if we were the recipients of Chinese "good will."

Unfortunately, what 70 years of such disastrous foreign policy has left us is only 2 real options if we're going to end this: back out of the Third World shithole a and live with the results (random attacks from time to time) until they die off - or utter annihilation and genocide.

Our government has no intention of doing either, because the dollar is now backed by military interventionism and derives it's value from debt and the blood of our children.

The war was never and is never meant to be won; it is meant to be continuous.
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They need no reason to kill and subjugate. Look at their history from inception till now.

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B00ger said:
Oh, I totally agree. It is a matter of semantics that doesn't really matter to those killed. But in the "grand scheme of things" at least we have a "military" target, and weddings and funerals aren't a "normal" target. Their "normal" targets are the most vulnerable.

While I am not a gung ho "we never do anything wrong" flag waver, I do believe that at least at a certain level the military has some level of restraint when it comes to civilian targets. Just ask some veterans and their "shoot/noshoot" requirements.
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Right. I'm not saying those fighting the fight are the ones targeting civilian centers.

But the Deep Staters most certainly do. The pilot gets a target package that says truck park or training camp....when it's maybe that during the day but is a hospital or shelter at night.

Part of what separates the good guys from the bad is warfare is the actions taken to accommodate such shitty situations.
 
SPM said:
We, the People don't target civilians.

They, the government does.

We bomb weddings and funerals. They can say they're after the 1 jihadi at the party, but the several hundred not-jihadis make that little more than semantics.

I know what you're saying. But I'm saying we aren't the government, and the government is not us.

The government does a great deal of evil in our name without our permission.
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BS. We don't target innocents. As an innocent you don't want to be accidently killed then don't hang with jahadi's.

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Qball said:
This is childs play. NOTE: That comment is not intended to make light of this terrible act. I'm really surprised that it's been over 15 years since 9/11 and there hasn't been another terrorist attack resulting in massive casualties and thousands of deaths in this country or any other. All of the tools necessary for such an event are out there and the perfect circumstances are in place for it to occur, and have been for some time now.
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Patience....

They will wait days, months, weeks or even years for the perfect opportunity and they spend those days/weeks/months/years planning for such a time. They're highly motivated and have proven they're meticulous in their planning, with great attention focused on the details. I think a lot of times, we underestimate just how sharp they are...they ain't stupid by any stretch; their planning and execution proves otherwise.

It's been said before that we have to be right every time...they only have to be right once. Can you stop some of it? Yeah. All of it? Not a chance, which is why we and by "we" I mean all of us have to be just as sharp, just as motivated to stop their sh*t as they are on committing it and have just as much attention to detail.

It's coming....table that "if" bullsh*t and WHEN it comes, who'll be there to stand in the gap? .Gov, cops, security folks cannot be everywhere all of the time...so who can be?

Citizens. Alert, armed citizens who realize that evil walks among us....that "there's a little good in everyone" is complete and utter nonsense. Citizens who have invested the time/effort into being as ready as they can possibly be.
 
wsfiredude said:
Patience....

They will wait days, months, weeks or even years for the perfect opportunity and they spend those days/weeks/months/years planning for such a time
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I agree completely. Also, my post wasn't intended to sound like I am for increasing government intrusion in the name of safety at the expense of our own liberties, such as the Patriot Act, TSA, and DHS for example.

I was simply pointing out my surprise that a major catastrophic attack hasn't occurred since 9/11 mainly because of the bad policies of the last administration in this country. That was what I meant by "tools" and "circumstances".
 
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Jeff82 said:
Total war. Dresden anyone? Back when we fought to win. The population must be made to understand their philosophy is wrong.

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The population doesn't have a philosophy. Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, designed to make the government rethink their philosophy. Make it so bad they don't want to play anymore.
 
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Jeff82 said:
BS. We don't target innocents. As an innocent you don't want to be accidently killed then don't hang with jahadi's.

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Jeff82 said:
You can't be that rectal, can you?

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Hey Little Buddy, the adults are talking about big people stuff, ok?

Please stop interrupting and go play nicely with the other kids...
 
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CZfool68 said:
If it is homegrown Muzzie terror they are screwed. They have let too large a footprint develop there to have any chance of controlling it. That is without some serious changes in attitude and violence level.
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Homegrown? I was nowhere near there n I can prove it !
 
Chuckman said:
To your second point first, I agree. I do not believe in partial conflict; either all-in, or all-out. This is excepting that grey area of FID/advising/and SOF shooting booger eaters in the face.

To your first point: I fully accede there has been tremendous collateral damage to non-combatants which only bolster 'the other side', and which they use in effective propaganda for their own benefit. You (not 'you' you, but the royal 'you') can label anything you want...terrorist, freedom fighter, insurgent, guerrilla, etc., but at the end of the argument, they all have some very special definitions which set them aside from the others. It's been a while since I have worn a uniform but don't know of a single operation in which the goal was the purposeful killing of non-combatants to achieve a psychological or political goal, but concede the booger eaters could spin almost any non-linear/asymmetrical operation to paint that picture to their constituents.
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How did we not "target" noncombatants during Shock and Awe of Baghdad?
 
SPM said:
Right. I'm not saying those fighting the fight are the ones targeting civilian centers.

But the Deep Staters most certainly do. The pilot gets a target package that says truck park or training camp....when it's maybe that during the day but is a hospital or shelter at night.

Part of what separates the good guys from the bad is warfare is the actions taken to accommodate such shitty situations.
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You can't have it both ways. You claim a separation from the good guys and bad guys, you talk about wanton targeting of civilians (terrorism), but then shrug and say the shelter-by-day-cum-terrorist-Motel-6-by-night is just one of those things.

Who is purposefully targeting civilians? You claim "Deep State", but you have served and should know the levels of JAG and S2/G2 all targeting has to go through, the vetting that occurs. If we are targeting civilians, and we know we are targeting civilians, your favorite New York Times will run that faster than HRC can run with her email server, a la My Lai.
 
We, the west I mean, currently do not have the stomach or will to do what needs doing. Simple as that. I do believe that the pendulum is beginning to swing, but will it be in time... @The Green Heron, @Windini and a few others here (@htperry @trcubed @noway2 @Don @Hammer21b ) and I have spoken at length in person and all agree on this, there are SOME who understand it but those are the .01% and you (I) simply do not have enough friends with hard hearts.

If we are waiting for the governments of the west to stave it off, we will all die as infidel dogs.
 
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Listen, killin folks is wrong. Unless they're tryin to personally kill you. The you you, in yer yard you, royal or not. If ya did somethin ta piss someone off enuff ta kill ya, then yer up for some sorta attitude adjustment. I'm not gunna let this bombin be a statement! It was wrong and wrong people as a whole , get adjustments soon enough. Individuals never make statements of this sort. The perps are always lost folks followin a group they can't lead.
 
I think that the targets they choose might be different if they had carrier groups full of billion dollar planes dropping million dollar ordnance or cruisers firing million dollar cruise missiles. Or M1 tanks and Bradleys.
Rather than homemade IED's and Ak47's.

Easy to say the enemy is "hiding behind innocents" when you bomb a wedding, or go to their town and level it. Just sayin'.

Like out forefathers in the American Revolution: you fight with what you have.

All that said, some of these muzzie kooks certainly have no scruples, and would send cruise missiles into grade schools if they could. Not much doubt about that.
 
@NKD this is what I mean by the populace had declared war on other countries populace, even if their burgoise government has not. Their governments have these things, at least to some degree, but they also know that if they tried to use them against us as a nation they would be utterly and quickly destroyed. This is what makes something lower tech like an EMP device or dirty radiological bomb so dangerous; a rogue nation or faction could potentially bring a nation like the US down or harm it greatly.
 
concepthomes1 said:
Certainly not surprised by their wording. Their use of the phrase Crusaders is kind of odd IMO. They seem to be insinuating that the Crusades are still ongoing and maybe their just carrying on an extended version of it?

Either way, we are at war. This whole world is literally at war.
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Crusaders, as in crucifix(the cross), as in Christians, as in non-believers (of Islam).
I believe that is how they are using the term..
 
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wsfiredude said:
It's coming....table that "if" bullsh*t and WHEN it comes, who'll be there to stand in the gap? .Gov, cops, security folks cannot be everywhere all of the time...so who can be?
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This incident shows us a big elephant in the room. The location had "security". The people were screened and items like water bottles were taken from them on top of the fact that we're already talking about a disarmed populace. These types of security measures are a joke and they don't work as the attack will just go somewhere else, somewhere there is a soft target crowd. As I believe it was a Belgian security consultant said about the incident - you can't stop them from getting off the train.
 
Chuckman said:
Our actions have consequences. Our inactions have consequences. We usually back the wrong horse in many conflicts in which we have no reason to intervene. But I stand by the US does not back state-sponsored terrorism. If you want to call waterboarding torture, OK, I would buy that. But based on the thread several threads ago if you want to go that route, I am OK calling the people we back counter-insurgents and freedom-fighters. We all decided it means what we believe it to mean, right?
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I hav no problem with a little torture/water boarding for a good cause. :D

I do have a problem with our meddling in other peoples' affairs non stop. If we need to go blow shit up, I get it. But the need to create things like the Arab Spring, ISIS and other groups is insanity.
 
Well, to be fair, the "Shock and Awe" was directed towards power supply, communications, and military targets. It was a "full war" and as someone who support playing to win or not playing at all I believe it was the right path. We didn't "Shock and awe" a theater.


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CZfool68 said:
If it is homegrown Muzzie terror they are screwed. They have let too large a footprint develop there to have any chance of controlling it. That is without some serious changes in attitude and violence level.
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Those with any concept of European history know its only a matter of time before another major pogrom in Europe.
 
Meckmeister said:
Sooner than later these security people are going to have to explain to the publec the narrative "...who was know to authorities."

CBS News confirms #ManchesterBombing suspect as Salman Abedi, 23, who was known to authorities.
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They don't have to explain anything. They're keeping tabs on everyone, so everyone is "known to authorities". Next they'll be asking to start going after people they know about "to protect the children/stop the terrorists". Then they can just do whatever to whoever as long as they're on a "list" somewhere. Just cause becomes just because.
 
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