FFP vs. SFP

Elenaidan

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Can someone explain the real world benefit of the First Focal Plane over the Second Focal Plane scope. If I intend to get a long distant rifle eventually, will it gain me any advantage at distance?

Everything I have read says it is really just for estimating sizes and ranges..... true or not?
 
It's pretty true. You don't have to be on a specific magnification for your measurements to be accurate. Another benefit is that the reticle is smaller at closer distances and doesn't obscure the targets if they're tiny.
 
Basically your stadia lines show angular measurements. These measurements are true on all magnifications on a FFP scope. The reticle changes sizes with magnification because of this. The benefit is if you don’t want to be at full magnification, you don’t have to be to used the scope stadia. Sometimes I like being on a lesser magnification for optical clarity or increased FOV.

It isn’t necessary but I have an ffp 1-4x on my ar. I like it because it has a “doughnut of death” at 1x which morphs in to a crosshairs with mil stadia at 4x.
 
For bench/known distance shooting I think a SFP is a great choice. Less expensive, for sure. At the bench, most folks crank the magnification and fire away. If you go with lower mag, doing the math to figure drops isn't hard.

In the field, FFP is definitely better. As mentioned above, you can decrease magnification for increased FOV without being worried about your DOPE changing.
 
For bench/known distance shooting I think a SFP is a great choice. Less expensive, for sure. At the bench, most folks crank the magnification and fire away. If you go with lower mag, doing the math to figure drops isn't hard.

In the field, FFP is definitely better. As mentioned above, you can decrease magnification for increased FOV without being worried about your DOPE changing.
Your DOPE is your DOPE, that won't change. Now if we're talking collecting your DOPE that will definitely be different on a SFP scope if you're not on the correct magnification for true measurements. However as long as you're consistent on your magnification and making your DOPE that would work just fine too, you'd just have odd numbers compared to most everyone else though.

I had a nightforce 4-16 with an SFP and didn't read the directions. I just assumed max magnification for ranging... I was WRONG, that dang thing had to be on 11 power for proper raging. Yeah, I sold that and got a Bushnell HDMR with FFP.
 
So, if I understand this correctly, a knock on FFP might be that the reticle is too thick/covers target when using increased magnification or it is too hard to see/too thin when using lowest magnification?
 
So, if I understand this correctly, a knock on FFP might be that the reticle is too thick/covers target when using increased magnification or it is too hard to see/too thin when using lowest magnification?
This can be true but it really depends on the reticle design. My swfa 3-15x gets too thin to see some of the fine stadia at 3x but there is more of the reticle that can be seen at 3x that cannot be seen at 15x. The 3x view still has useable stadia info. But at 3x I am usually not worried about a single milliradian unit either because objects will be close enough that it won’t matter.
 
9416FCED-A04F-42F8-99C3-963306E42099.jpeg So at 3x, it looks a lot like a duplex reticle but you can see more of the heavy lines. You can see the stadia related to the heavy lines. At higher magnification, you use the inner stadia.
 
So I have been doing a good bit of reading and talking to folks. I have decided to spend more money than I can easily make on a Nightforce ATACR. They have a great reputation for ruggedness and clarity. 5x25x56 with mil/mil rect. I have struggled for over two years about purchasing anything this expensive or extravagant that is not "required" for a machine to run. I have not parted with money yet, but it is on hold with the dealer. I feel sick to the stomach when I part with that kind of money, but I have always wanted a long distance tactical scope. I may regret this, but I think I am about committed at this point. In my mind this is a very extravagant item. I was pretty sure I had a firm grip on the detracting features, but thank you to all you folks for firming it up for me.

I was debating between a super expensive FFP scope or three weeks of carbine classes. I may really, really, regret this.
 
That is where I would be, if I could find one around here. I doubt I would benefit from a scope like that yet. But then again, my shooting ability is probably way below yours!

Ooooooh . I doubt your shooting ability is near as bad as mine. When I get this thing you are welcome to come try it out. You can bet your britches, for what it cost.......... it will be getting some "Prove it to me time".
 
So I have been doing a good bit of reading and talking to folks. I have decided to spend more money than I can easily make on a Nightforce ATACR. They have a great reputation for ruggedness and clarity. 5x25x56 with mil/mil rect. I have struggled for over two years about purchasing anything this expensive or extravagant that is not "required" for a machine to run. I have not parted with money yet, but it is on hold with the dealer. I feel sick to the stomach when I part with that kind of money, but I have always wanted a long distance tactical scope. I may regret this, but I think I am about committed at this point. In my mind this is a very extravagant item. I was pretty sure I had a firm grip on the detracting features, but thank you to all you folks for firming it up for me.

I was debating between a super expensive FFP scope or three weeks of carbine classes. I may really, really, regret this.

Better to spend more than you wanted and solve the problem. You could spend $500 less and then be unhappy. Then a year from now you're spending more money. I am no scope expert, but if you want a good distance scope that will last forever with reasonable non-combat care you likely done good.
 
So I have been doing a good bit of reading and talking to folks. I have decided to spend more money than I can easily make on a Nightforce ATACR. They have a great reputation for ruggedness and clarity. 5x25x56 with mil/mil rect. I have struggled for over two years about purchasing anything this expensive or extravagant that is not "required" for a machine to run. I have not parted with money yet, but it is on hold with the dealer. I feel sick to the stomach when I part with that kind of money, but I have always wanted a long distance tactical scope. I may regret this, but I think I am about committed at this point. In my mind this is a very extravagant item. I was pretty sure I had a firm grip on the detracting features, but thank you to all you folks for firming it up for me.

I was debating between a super expensive FFP scope or three weeks of carbine classes. I may really, really, regret this.

Before plopping the money down, if you want to go to woodys for a play date and take a look through a few we can meet up out there. Then mount one on your rifle for some rounds down range if you want get a real feel for it. It wouldn't be an ATACR. I do have a razor, viper, s&b for some testing.
 
I just can't see the situation arising very often where I'll be needing to range or hold over, etc. and not already be at max magnification. I can see the advantage for very powerful scopes needing to engage at widely varying distances but that doesn't describe my shooting so I've put little value in FFP for me. ymmv
 
A little on the thin side at the 5x, but not horrible. Of course, those Nightforce scopes are very expensive aren't they?
Would FFP scopes in the <$400 range still work as well?

About "meh" at best
 
Before plopping the money down, if you want to go to woodys for a play date and take a look through a few we can meet up out there. Then mount one on your rifle for some rounds down range if you want get a real feel for it. It wouldn't be an ATACR. I do have a razor, viper, s&b for some testing.
@Elenaidan you are more than welcome to use my swfa if you would like to compare a cheaper option. I know it is not a night force and would never claim it to be. But I like it for my needs.
 
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Before plopping the money down, if you want to go to woodys for a play date and take a look through a few we can meet up out there. Then mount one on your rifle for some rounds down range if you want get a real feel for it. It wouldn't be an ATACR. I do have a razor, viper, s&b for some testing.

I will be traveling a lot through the end of the month, so it probably would not happen before I gave up some cash. However, when I do get it, I would love to meet you down at Woody's and we can try them all side by side and play a bit. I am a member there as well. It would be a good day for me.

@Elenaidan you are more than welcome to use my swfa if you would like to compare a cheaper option. I know it is not a night force and would never claim it to be. But I like it for my needs.

Would love to try it out one afternoon or weekend when you are available. As mentioned above it may be later in the fall before I can make any commitment for a range day.
 
This can be true but it really depends on the reticle design. My swfa 3-15x gets too thin to see some of the fine stadia at 3x but there is more of the reticle that can be seen at 3x that cannot be seen at 15x. The 3x view still has useable stadia info. But at 3x I am usually not worried about a single milliradian unit either because objects will be close enough that it won’t matter.

So @Climberman, how would you rate the quality of that 3-15 SWFA?

I'm thinking I'll take the plunge on the MOA version and hope they have the same 20% off Black Friday sale as last year.

My brother put a Vortex 6-24 FFP on a couple of new rifles and I liked them a lot. Enough to convince me that the latest will get a FFP.
 
So @Climberman, how would you rate the quality of that 3-15 SWFA?
I'm thinking I'll take the plunge on the MOA version and hope they have the same 20% off Black Friday sale as last year.
My brother put a Vortex 6-24 FFP on a couple of new rifles and I liked them a lot. Enough to convince me that the latest will get a FFP.

I really like the 3-15 SWFA. The clicks are solid. I like the reticle. It performed nicely at a precision rifle lesson with @JBoyette . I think that it is a lot of scope for the money.

TiborasaurusRex liked them also.


@RJT is selling a used one at a great price.
https://carolinafirearmsforum.com/i...2-ffp-tactical-rifle-scope.11393/#post-307173
 
H&K MR762A1. ( 7.62 X 51 )

You know, using it on that rifle won't be fair to the target #noskillrequired. We were pinging steel with irons at distance with no problem. That Nightforce will be like cheating :).

I am ambivalent between FFP/SFP. It's all in what you have, are trained on, or used to.
 
IMG_1022.JPG IMG_1029.JPG IMG_1026.JPG
You know, using it on that rifle won't be fair to the target #noskillrequired. We were pinging steel with irons at distance with no problem. That Nightforce will be like cheating :).

I am ambivalent between FFP/SFP. It's all in what you have, are trained on, or used to.

You are percent correct. However the 1000 yd range is coming soon. That is the intermediate game. In the mean time we can try it out to 500.
 

I saw the TiborasaurusRex video on selecting a scope, that's what got SWFA on my radar screen in the first place.

I also saw the one @RJT has. I was leaning toward the MOA only because I would have to relearn everything in milRad.

I was watching his while hoping SWFA would repeat their 20% Black Friday sale, but came across a good deal on a Sig Talon4 6-24x50 FFP MOA with illuminated reticle this afternoon. By the time I'm done (I still need a canted base), I'll be twice as much into the optics than the rifle.

I did pretty good with a SFP 3-9x40 for a long time. At three power, exactly twelve inches fits between the crosshairs and the thick post. Three feet equals 300 yards, six feet equals 600 yards. It got pretty automatic after thirty plus years, but after shooting my brother's FFP, the desire is strong and the frugal side got weak.
 
I am currently running a Vortex Viper PST 6-24X50 FFP on my Bergara B14. One real advantage for FFP is on hold-overs or hold-unders at longer range when the mirage gets really, really bad. I will often just dial back to 10-12 power and it really helps mitigate excessive mirage at distance, while not screwing up my ability to hold over or under in the reticle. I also have an Athlon Helos FFP on my CZ455 competition rimfire rig for just this reason.
 
I saw the TiborasaurusRex video on selecting a scope, that's what got SWFA on my radar screen in the first place.

I also saw the one @RJT has. I was leaning toward the MOA only because I would have to relearn everything in milRad.

I was watching his while hoping SWFA would repeat their 20% Black Friday sale, but came across a good deal on a Sig Talon4 6-24x50 FFP MOA with illuminated reticle this afternoon. By the time I'm done (I still need a canted base), I'll be twice as much into the optics than the rifle.

I did pretty good with a SFP 3-9x40 for a long time. At three power, exactly twelve inches fits between the crosshairs and the thick post. Three feet equals 300 yards, six feet equals 600 yards. It got pretty automatic after thirty plus years, but after shooting my brother's FFP, the desire is strong and the frugal side got weak.

Once you go to MRAD you will not want to go back to MOA. Watch this great video to help you with it.
 
Sorry to hijack but which model B14? I am hoarding pennies right now for the HMR. I have been really impressed with the B14 Hunter I bought last year.
 
Sorry to hijack but which model B14? I am hoarding pennies right now for the HMR. I have been really impressed with the B14 Hunter I bought last year.

I have the B-14 BMP and I love it. It easily shoots sub-MOA when paired with FFP optics! ;)

boomy.jpg
 
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So just reading through the thread, I'm getting the impression that folks believe that ranging/target measurements are only feasible at one fixed power in their SFP, and this isn't quite true.

I quote the Vortex Viper PST manual here:

In the Viper PST second focal plane riflescopes, the listed MOA subtensions of the EBR-1 reticle are only valid at the highest magnifications of the scope.

However, by understanding the relationship of magnification and subtensions, ranging, holdovers, and wind drift can still be calculated at partial magnifications. Here are some examples:

• If the magnification is set at ½ the full magnification, subtension values will be two times the spec listed in the manual.

• If the magnification is set at 1/3 the full magnification, subtension values will be three times the spec listed in the manual.

• If the magnification is set at ¼ the full magnification, subtension values will be four times the spec listed in the manual.

This is further clarified by this handy-dandy chart, which accompanies the manual:

Screenshot_20171114-231941.png

As can plainly be seen here, all the DOPE, target measurement, wind/elevation holds, range estimation formulas all still work. One has to simply keep in mind the power of magnification in use and perform reticle measurements with the correct ratio in mind.

The same is true of the MIL reticle for the equivalent scope, you can download the manuals free from Vortex and see for yourself.
 
So just reading through the thread, I'm getting the impression that folks believe that ranging/target measurements are only feasible at one fixed power in their SFP, and this isn't quite true.


I can't speak for anybody else, but if you got that impression from my post, then perhaps I was unclear in my point. I am quite aware that you can do holdovers at various magnifications on second focal plane scopes. I shot a SFP 6-24X50 Vortex Viper PST exclusively for a year and even now still have it mounted on one of my wife's rifles - it is a fine scope in my opinion. My point was not that you cannot do holdovers at various magnifications with a SFP scope. Rather, my point was that with a FFP scope, there is an advantage in that it does not matter what magnification you are at for purpose of holdovers/holdunders. You just dial it to wherever is comfortable and the reticle remains spot on without having to even worry about estimating the proper fraction of a subtension to hold to make the proper holdover adjustment at whatever distances you happen to need.
 

I can't speak for anybody else, but if you got that impression from my post, then perhaps I was unclear in my point. I am quite aware that you can do holdovers at various magnifications on second focal plane scopes. I shot a SFP 6-24X50 Vortex Viper PST exclusively for a year and even now still have it mounted on one of my wife's rifles - it is a fine scope in my opinion. My point was not that you cannot do holdovers at various magnifications with a SFP scope. Rather, my point was that with a FFP scope, there is an advantage in that it does not matter what magnification you are at for purpose of holdovers/holdunders. You just dial it to wherever is comfortable and the reticle remains spot on without having to even worry about estimating the proper fraction of a subtension to hold to make the proper holdover adjustment at whatever distances you happen to need.

My comments weren't directed at you per se, they were a rather general response to the first 4-5 replies to the OP, and specifically intended to clarify the ability to range and measure targets at varying magnification. I certainly do appreciate your clarity, and your efforts thereto.
 
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