"Free College" = Surrendering the liberty to choose

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by fishgutzy, Jul 4, 2018.

  1. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    Set aside for a moment the "who pays" question. NC learned long ago that it is unaffordable and had to abandon free college.
    Liberals democrats never go beyond that to the reality such a thing would require.
    The military and the ASVAB are good example of what happens.
    The military provides free training to all who qualify for enlistment. But to ensure the cost of that free training is more efficiently used, they administer the ASVAB to predict how well a candidate do in certain areas. Then it assigns possible career choice based on the test results.
    I score 90 on electrical, 60 on mechanical. They were not about to let me choose a mechanical field.
    Same would happen with "free" college. Testing to determine what the government (taxpayer) will pay for based on test results. It may even go as far as assigning a region of the country where your have to work after college.
    Such a system would, necessarily, eliminate choice in one's career. Also necessary because the if socialist medicine every became law, people would have to be drafted in healthcare service because wages would no longer be high enough to attract people voluntarily.

    Then you have the whole admissions quandary. Supply will not change. But applications will skyrocket. That means admissions will become far more exclusive, for white Christian heterosexual males anyway, and eventually white females. Because like the old civil service exams, whites will need a 98 to pass, down to 65 for Hispanics (yes that was the case with MA civil service exams).
     
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  2. georgel

    georgel Behind Every Blade of Grass Charter Member

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    Arguably, wouldn't that optimize each for their careers? Would you be happy as a mechanic is your weren't good at it?

    Don't resist the system. The system is for the greater good. I think you need to go to a re-indoctrination camp to correct your thinking, citizen.


    ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  3. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    Of course I had no interest in mechanics then at all.
    I actually got my lefty sister to admit that she wanted such testing and career assignment too as being necessary for government controlled college. She walked right into it. I didn't push further to get her to admit that for fiscal efficiency, all grievance studies programs and personal had to be terminated as they have zero market value.
    [She is not so far gone yet though. She chose life for her son after finding out their was a high probability he had down syndrome. Though many that are as far left as she is think she was selfish in doing so. But part of her turned conor into a jobs program because Conor needed an individual handler (teaching assistant) with him full time because he was far more adventurous and energetic than typical kids with down syndrome ]
     
  4. Button Pusher

    Button Pusher Well-Known Member Benefactor

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    Funny how "Free College" has become "Free Tuition".
     
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  5. GeorgeBush

    GeorgeBush Member

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    I believe this is what Germany does for college after establishing what students are good at during their high school years.

    First they determine who is going to university or trade school then narrow it down from there. Also trade schools are just as respected in that country as the universities are; something that changed here during the 1990s.
     
  6. Catfish

    Catfish She was the best dog. Charter Member Supporting Member

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    In that line of thought check out this paragraph from Ayn Rand’s leftist character:

    “Only by accepting total compulsion can we achieve total freedom”
    Nobody is saying it quite like that today but we’re heading in that direction...
     

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  7. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Do I believe everyone should have access? Absolutely. Do I believe The State should foot the bill? Absolutely not.

    That said... There are creative ways to do it, just as you described. And it actually happens in the medical field all the time. If the government pays for your education, you have to give back with service.

    I don't have a problem with a multi tier system, where you can go where you choose and study what you want to study if you pay. If you want a government scholarship or government money or loan, you go where the government tells you and study what the government tells you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  8. Schattenreiter

    Schattenreiter Member

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    Absolutely I would be happy if that is what I wanted to do.

    Would you be happy with sex if you weren't any good at it?
     
  9. Button Pusher

    Button Pusher Well-Known Member Benefactor

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    I recall a news story on jobs about 10 years ago, they went to a high school and asked if anyone was going to trade school,
    none of them said yes, they all said they want the corner office.
    Next they talk to a man who owns a large machine shop, he said he has CNC machines that cost more then a Ferrari and he has
    nobody who wants to work for him, 40 hours a week, no overtime, full benefits. Go figure.
     
  10. vaskeet

    vaskeet Active Member

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    make the colleges provide the student loans then they will start teaching classes that will make their graduates enough money to pay back those loans. no scholarships, no athletics, no fancy buildings just academics. Minimize costs by having EVERY student work 10 hours a week for the school cutting grass, painting, cleaning, serving meals.
     
  11. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    NCLB forced Vocational High schools to become exam schools that only admit the brightest students. The Voc used to be for those that were more technically, rather than academically inclined. NCLB require even vocs to provide college prep level academic education, and the same high testing results even though the students had essentially half the academic time because they spent half in voc classes.
    Yet despite this, Voc graduates did not have to qualifications to get admitted to a nursing school due to lack of key classes like biology even if they took the CNA track in the voc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  12. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    You know for sure that if any republican proposed that, the left would raise holy hell.
    The worst program right now is the one that claims to provide student loan forgiveness for teachers in certain public school districts. The problem is that one can't qualify until one has been fully licensed for 5 years. It take 5 years to get fully licensed. And in 10 years, the loans still have to be paid. By the time my wife qualified her student loans were paid off. Ha!

    If such a gov(taxpayer) plan ever got implemented. It would have to exclude all degree programs with no market value (that would be degrees that mostly only qualify one to teach that subject) like anything to so with social justice, grievance studies, etc.
    Liberal arts degrees only covered if they pass prescreening test that prove they have the aptitude and attitude to teach and then sign a binding contract to teach in an inner city public school for 10 years. No exception, no exemptions, no escape clauses. [UNCG states in their material that the BA in physics is geared toward those who are planning to go into 5-12 teaching. Basically a dumbed down, no calculus degree. My daughter earned her BS is physics, minor in math and took the real physics classes]
    Things like law school, only covered if they sign a contract to work in the public defenders office, county, state, federal level prosecutor or law enforcement for 10 years.
    Medical school, only if they work in under served rural areas or inner city 'public' hospitals or clinics for 20 years.
     
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  13. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    That last one is a good one. Schools like Harvard only make the scholarship students work in the cafeteria so they can be humiliated every day by the rich brats that go there.
    At NU, I worked as a dorm proctor. Basically dorm entrance security. Check ID's and such.
    Tall black man approaches the desk with his "entourage" of Farrakhan wannabes in suits and bow ties. The guy had actually changed his last name to X. When I ask to see his ID before entering, he says "don't you know who I am?" I said no and the rules apply to everyone. He was not a resident of that wing and he knew that he had to be signed in by a resident and escorted. An entitled douche bag.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  14. vaskeet

    vaskeet Active Member

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    I make more than most people with a BA in most fields (Engineering Tech lead technician ) but my education was 20 years repairing aircraft electronics and airframes in the Navy the 19 years with the company doing everything from fiber optic repair, micro min. soldering , communication/data networks and minor software programing My daughter will have heavy student loans but with Pharm D she will make the money to pay them back. I help her as much as possible what I pay for her is over $700.00 a month between her car, health care and car insurance
     
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  15. sr30

    sr30 Member

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    Loans, it’s all about student loans, the ones you take to your grave.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  16. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    My daughter has student loans but not much because she went to UNCG and got a degree with market value. Ha!
     
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  17. AR10ShooterinNC

    AR10ShooterinNC Happy to be here

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    The college and student loan program go hand in hand, the same way health care and health insurance are. It's just a big circle jerk, making sure you can't afford one with out the other.
     
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  18. MacEntyre

    MacEntyre Shoot on Sight! Charter Member

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    I'd like to see a solution that doesn't use the power of government to force social change.

    Try reducing the power of government. How about if both feds and states get outa the education business?

    Let colleges survive in a free market. Free College goes out the winder then, jus' sayin...
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
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  19. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    I am not sure anyone is advocating 'making' anyone do anything, and I am not sure anyone is advocating college as a tool for social change (me, I see it as an economic change). I would love to see .gov get out of underwriting school loans, completely. By and large colleges do survive in a free market, though grants and contracts do make things murky. Besides, if you are talking about the states getting out of the education business completely to the point of shutting down state colleges/universities and community colleges, this country would have an economic disaster never seen. However, I do think that as long as .gov is involved, there is very much a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours opportunity.
     
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  20. MacEntyre

    MacEntyre Shoot on Sight! Charter Member

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    sorry, uncalled fer accusation... edited it out.
     
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  21. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    That's just it. Liberals lie. They sell bad ideas with sweet promises without revealing their true intentions. Of course they would never say that the government will decide what they get to study once they control everything.
    Denmark is finally moving in that direction because "free" college but extremely high income tax on the most productive has meant that they don;t have enough people studying engineering and hard science. They don't want to pay higher taxes that come with the higher pay.
    So the government is planning to remove choice at some point.
    Of course, the wealthy will always be able to choose.
    Just as liberals want a two tier healthcare system, they want a two tier university system. The masses get limited access and no choice. The wealthy donor and ruling class keep their freedom to choose.
     
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  22. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    That will never happen.
    We see this in the health care delivery/insurance debate too.
    Healthcare costs would come down if it was actually subject to fee market forces.
    In the free market, as technology advances, products and service improve and prices come down. The first basic analog flip phone cost over $2000. Now look what you get.
    In healthcare, nobody knows how much anything costs until the bills start coming in. Even the 'estimate' given the day of service is never complete.
    Get gov't out of healthcare and education. Gov't regulation and intervention creates $Billions in compliance costs that add ZERO value.
     
  23. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    @fishgutzy , I mostly agree. There's a whole host of reasons I think the .gov needs to get out of the student loan business...moral, ethical, and economic. BUT...as long as they are gonna do it, might as well make the recipients get it the old fashioned way and pay it back through service and only with income-producing degrees. But it'll never happen.

    But getting rid of state colleges and community colleges is such a bad idea for so many reasons. But it's an academic argument, because that, too, will never happen.
     
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  24. RFMan

    RFMan Member Life Member

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    I see what you did there :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
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  25. GeorgeBush

    GeorgeBush Member

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    At the very least student loans should be off the table for people who major in useless garbage.

    College is fun and many tough classes are fun... but the taxpayer should not be on the hook for several categories of goofball.

    I think many musicians and artisans would be better served in apprenticeships or specialty schools than "run of the mill colleges." Example - majoring in clarinet at UNC-G (or whatever). Also this should not qualify for student loans either; if you are an extremely poor but talented musician the ticket should be a scholarship.

    Teaching should also be a much more difficult major; probably a rant for another thread but as it stands now it seems to largely be a "fall back" and the quality of instruction is obviously suffering.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  26. vaskeet

    vaskeet Active Member

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    State colleges should not accept any out of state student if any state resident that wants to go there is not accepted and the re should be Zero scholarships for out of state students along with Zero Athletic scholarships and no school funds should go to athletics (self sufficient or it does not exist)
     
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  27. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

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    Should there be any State colleges? How about if they are all private and offer whatever they'd like? If enough people will pay for useless degrees let some school(s) offer it without support from any tax payers. I don't care if some imbecile takes Chinese Queer Martian Studies. But it should be a private transactiob without any involvement from taxpayers.
     
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  28. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    I am not theoretically opposed to this, but there would be a couple problems. The remaining private colleges would be cost prohibitive, and they would not have to offer high-need majors. The truth is, for what colleges get in public funding, the economic impact is tenfold for the state and community.
     
  29. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    I agree re: out of state students.
     
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  30. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

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    I call BS. The positive impact is the only thing ever measured. What about the taxes collected and opportunity costs? How much is finded with government grants? So called research studies? Mthings about shrimp on treadmills, how mean and women are different and other assinine things. And what is the economic impact to of the gov't/university loan scam? The debt accumulated by people with totally useless degrees is astounding. What is the student loan default rate and risk? It all goes together with our current system. It is one huge scame driving up costs and debts. It kind of reminds me of the arguments for public funding of sports stadiums. Only the small positives are looked at. Never the costs and other options. Oh, if we build a billin dollar stadium we'll get 57 jobs forever. Nobody ever considers if that billion could have been better used by individual people.
     
  31. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    UC system got busted violating CA state law regarding out of state admissions. They were admitting a higher percentage than allowed as a means of increasing revenue.
    In NC, UNC nursing school, out of state tuition +r&b is over $70K a year. That creates a huge incentive to deny admission in state in favor of an out of state applicant. Not sure why anyone from out of state would want to pay that much when other nursing schools, even private, cost much less.
     
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  32. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Call BS. But can you substantiate it with facts?

    There have been many studies that show the economic impact of colleges and universities on the economy. If you go past jobs strictly, the average bachelor degree holder contributes $278,000 more to local economy than a high-school graduate through direct spending of the course of a lifetime. people with bachelor's degrees or higher spend more per household than people with high school education or less.

    But get beyond that, there are tons of BS studies that get done at the university level, but for every one there there is significant research being done.

    There's also the spending that gets done by students, faculty, and staff any local economy, which boosts economic growth and produces more jobs.

    All of what I said I can back up.
     
  33. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    @CZfool68 , I would agree that universities not paying tax is BS. The state is having it's cake and eating it too. They are largely a tax drain with a lot of waste. I'm all for eliminating the non-essential and getting rid of waste.
     
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  34. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

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    I am just digging into all this crap as my 17 year old is starting the college research and application process. Right now if she had her choice she would go to UNC Chapel Hill. She wants to study biology or something similar and then go to med school. She has a 4.3 or some thing GPA taking mostly AP courses, and is in the NHS, Spanish NHS and Health Science Honor Society. She finished 2nd in NC for the Health Science Symposium and just went to Nationals. Can't remember exactly but her SAT's were sonewhere around 1350 or so. And the admissions people at UNC have told her she is borderline. Anyone want to take bets on how many out of state, foreign and pure dumb ass kids might get in that school instead of her? Frankly I just assume she go elsewhere, but the entire process, politics and economics of the university system are fubar. And it is mostly due to governemnt money, intervention and economic distortions. Fortunately she'll have options.
     
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  35. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

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    Two simple points. The studies are done by economics departments or people from the university system. And more importantly all that assumes that without the state or government involvement there would be zero collegs or education. I am not advocating for no education or colleges. I am saying there shouldn't be government support. There would still be college towns, degrees and benefits. And all the good things associated with that. Just as there was before we had this massive education-government complex and mob. So there would still be all (ok, some) of that wonderful spending and local economy that you referenced. It just would not be funded by debt and taxes as it is now. Because right now it is all manufactured by debt and bad economics. How can we call it a benefit if we have young adults graduating with $100,000 and more in debt? With degrees that will get them jobs as teachers and social workers that will pay them enough to live with Mom and Dad until 20 years later when they finally pay off their loans?
     
  36. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    UNC is retarded. The esteem they hold themselves in is crazy. The problem is, is people like UNC and apply. When they have a billion applications, they will take whomever they want. Each county has (well, had...I do not know if they still do it) a quota for UNC. Because I went to Orange County schools I had better odds of getting into an Ivy League school. Go to a very rural county, the odds are much better. UNC takes transfer students all the time. I know people who couldn't get into any college, went to Durham Tech for two years, transferred with no problem.
     
  37. fishgutzy

    fishgutzy Senior Member Supporting Member

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    Many people are not aware that UNCG has more rigorous courses than CHAPEL HILL.
    My daughter had classmates that took physics courses at UNC or NCS and felt the need to retake at UNCG because they didn't learn much.
    But Chapel Hill also suffers from severe academic arrogance. Comes with the region.
    Unless one checks a protected box for UNC, admissions are quite exclusive.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  38. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Guess what the starting salary is for a UNC grad in nursing? An ECU grad? A fill-in-the-college-of-your-choice grad? The same.

    All NC colleges MUST take a certain percentage of in-state students, and that number far exceeds the out of state. But they sure as hell make those out of state students pay.

    A BSN from any accredited program is the same to an employer. Only the people at Duke, UNC, they think it makes a difference.
     
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  39. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

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    Yeah, but no kid wants to hang out in Greensboro for 4 years! Heck, I can't blame them.

    Trying to get my daughter to focus on things other than campus beauty, shopping districts and restaurants, but there is only so much you can do with a 17 year old mind. Campbell is on the list and Wingate as well. Thibk we still have a few schols in SC to visit too. If I can get her into a place other than UNC Chapel Hill it will be fine with me.
     
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  40. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    You bring up a great point, and one with which I am very familiar: educational debt. There is not a product in this country that has out-paced inflation and economic growth as the cost of college education. The cost is insane. People in BS majors with zero marketability graduate with massive debt. And because the lenders are happy to give it, colleges are happy to raise the prices in order to haul it in. Money laundering. I fully agree: eliminate all state-backed student loans (UNLESS: it's pay-for-service for teachers, nurses, physicians, etc.). Bad economics? Insanely stupid economics.
     
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