Georgia shooting of a black man

In Hindsight...this young man's best action was to beat feet Away. This is NOT to put any blame on him for what he did, just from a Self Protection stand point.
I'm unarmed [yeah we all know that ain't happening] minding my own damn business and somebody pulls up and pulls out a shotgun....they'd have a better chance hittin a rabbit on crack!!!
 
B00ger said:
Personally, yes, in my opinion, were I jogging through a neighborhood and someone stops in front of me and rolls out wielding a shotgun, its "go time". They already have initiative and I am in the "catch up" phase. At the very least it would be time to clear leather and see where that big ol 12 guage muzzle moves.
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It's pretty scary thought when you consider what it must have looked like. Even if you're armed you're playing catch up and outgunned.

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Cowboy said:
There are lots of questions that the video by itself can't answer. A few questions I would have is as follows:
1. Is there actual testimony that this individual was actually jogging? Was this a daily or weekly activity that he did in this area often. I know just about every jogger, Walker in my neighborhood.
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I think "testimony" would generally be a formal or legal statement. But yes there are people who knew him and saw him jogging daily.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/06/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-georgia

"Neighbors had seen him run by their homes every day for years.
One of them was Lauren Bennett, 26, who says running was what Arbery was known for around their Fancy Bluff neighborhood in Brunswick. Her security camera would ping into her phone as he raced by each day.

“Yup, there goes Ahmaud,” she told the Guardian, recalling his bouts of exercise. She’d heard he used to wave to another neighbor on his daily runs."
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
In Hindsight...this young man's best action was to beat feet Away. This is NOT to put any blame on him for what he did, just from a Self Protection stand point.
I'm unarmed [yeah we all know that ain't happening] minding my own damn business and somebody pulls up and pulls out a shotgun....they'd have a better chance hittin a rabbit on crack!!!
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Yup, as I mentioned upstream a bit, he was given two options, fight or flight. In hindsight, running may have served him well, or it could have led him to getting a blast in the back. I'm faster than I used to be, but not as fast as I have been, but ive never broken 1200 feet per second.
 
hp468 said:
Ok, legal in NC (or at least not illegal), got it.

Its not acceptable behavior in my area. Like I said, ya'll do what you do.
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Yeah, my father in law would always want to check out houses being built. Never understood that because no one was on site, it was ok to just walk in. Kind of like going on someone land just to look around if they are not home. If you are interested in the building aspect, go when the builder is there and talk to him. If you are looking to buy, call the realtor.
 
mj1angier said:
Yeah, my father in law would always want to check out houses being built. Never understood that because no one was on site, it was ok to just walk in. Kind of like going on someone land just to look around if they are not home. If you are interested in the building aspect, go when the builder is there and talk to him. If you are looking to buy, call the realtor.
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I remember back in the 90s there would be vacant homes still under construction that were just unlocked and these places were dang near move in ready. It was common there for people to cruise the new construction homes and check them out. The builders sold a lot of homes due to that. Course that was before people started stealing everything that wasnt nailed down too.

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Wahoo95 said:
That's well written

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My only issue with this story is this:
"If you’re like me, It has been difficult to locate any news articles that have not been dripping with highly opinionated narrative of this event." Yet...the title of the article is "The Violent Vigilante Murder..."

Despite what evidence is made in the article, or what it points to, the title in, and of itself, is opinionated.
 
Wahoo95 said:
I remember back in the 90s there would be vacant homes still under construction that were just unlocked and these places were dang near move in ready. It was common there for people to cruise the new construction homes and check them out. The builders sold a lot of homes due to that. Course that was before people started stealing everything that wasnt nailed down too.
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The home across the street was vacant but unfurnished, no water or power, noticed flashlights inside, called the Sheriff dept. Turns out the man and woman inside were buying the lot on the end of the block and were staying the night in the house. Deputies asked them to leave. They left the place a mess.
 
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How many times have the people here walked into an under construction house and looked around ? I know my wife made me look at tons of them when shopping for a home. These guys loaded up, jumped in the back of a truck and forgot their white hoods at home. They deserve the same thing they gave that young man. Same as the DA who didn't immediately arrest them.

And the earlier stolen gun at home comment. I have bought tons of used handguns over the years. I am sure there is a good chance one might of been stolen at one point or the other. Does that mean if some guy shoots me when I am out jogging, it will be justified ?
 
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Getting back on topic, why were the two men not charged for the crime(s)? When the only other witness is dead you can say anything you wish. If the video was never taken the two would have gotten away with a planned murder. Yes planned, the young man took the same route daily.
Same with M-Z case, M was dead and Z could say anything he wished. He did not have to fire the revolver, he said he feared for his life, his head being smashed on the concrete. He refused ER visit because 'medical care is expensive' all on video in PD interrogation room. Real reason is the ER records and any cat scan or x-ray images would be used against him in court. Remember he never testified, and rightly so. Insufficient evidence to convict him.
 
Button Pusher said:
Getting back on topic, why were the two men not charged for the crime(s)? When the only other witness is dead you can say anything you wish. If the video was never taken the two would have gotten away with a planned murder. Yes planned, the young man took the same route daily.
Same with M-Z case, M was dead and Z could say anything he wished. He did not have to fire the revolver, he said he feared for his life, his head being smashed on the concrete. He refused ER visit because 'medical care is expensive' all on video in PD interrogation room. Real reason is the ER records and any cat scan or x-ray images would be used against him in court. Remember he never testified, and rightly so. Insufficient evidence to convict him.
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It's always better if you're the only one there to tell the story of what happened. Even better than that is when the police take everything you said as truth and don't waste any time doing a thorough investigation.

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OldNascar said:
So far what is missing is what incited the shooters to chase the runner down. There has to be cause for their actions.
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It's not missing. They claimed they believed he was the person behind a rash of burglaries recently even though there was only one reported to take that claim for what it's worth.

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Wahoo95 said:
It's not missing. They claimed they believed he was the person behind a rash of burglaries recently even though there was only one reported to take that claim for what it's worth.

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That being the case than the confrontation may be justified by Georgia law which I know nothing of. Always more to come by trial time and apparantly there is plenty of work for the defense.
 
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OldNascar said:
That being the case than the confrontation may be justified by Georgia law which I know nothing of. Always more to come by trail time and apparantly there is plenty of work for the defense.
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Not necessarily since they didnt witness a felony being committed. The 911 caller in the chase car only said that they believed he was the person that's responsible and not that they just witnessed him take anything. Referencing a past event doesn't clear any citizen to make an arrest. They should have allowed the police to do their job. Additionally, he was found with nothing...no goods or firearm. You aimply cannot go rounding up an armed posse to chase people down over suspected crimes in 2020.

The part about needing to actually witness the crime is important as it reduces the chance of mistaken identity. I can assure you if two armed men confronted me out the blue theydl'd better be in uniform or flashing a badge or they're gonna catch all the smoke I'm holding and we'll just see who's left standing.

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I am gonna just leave this here for your viewing pleasure. I figure at least a few will understand it.


iu
 
Wahoo95 said:
Not necessarily since they didnt witness a felony being committed. The 911 caller in the chase car only said that they believed he was the person that's responsible and not that they just witnessed him take anything. Referencing a past event doesn't clear any citizen to make an arrest. They should have allowed the police to do their job. Additionally, he was found with nothing...no goods or firearm. You aimply cannot go rounding up an armed posse to chase people down over suspected crimes in 2020.

The part about needing to actually witness the crime is important as it reduces the chance of mistaken identity. I can assure you if two armed men confronted me out the blue theydl'd better be in uniform or flashing a badge or they're gonna catch all the smoke I'm holding and we'll just see who's left standing.

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Bottom line is the fact of innocent until proven guilty. The facts are not just the video nor the chase but what actually happened at the moment of the use of deadly force. There's more to this story than is being told, jmho.
 
OldNascar said:
Bottom line is the fact of innocent until proven guilty. The facts are not just the video nor the chase but what actually happened at the moment of the use of deadly force. There's more to this story than is being told, jmho.
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That's because you're overlooking the fact that they didn't have the right to do what they were doing since they didn't witness a felony being committed by that individual(THIS DETAIL IS KEY). Since they weren't in alignment with law they can't go claiming self defense because they put themselves in a situation with an unarmed person who had every right to defend himself from them.

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OldNascar said:
Bottom line is the fact of innocent until proven guilty. The facts are not just the video nor the chase but what actually happened at the moment of the use of deadly force. There's more to this story than is being told, jmho.
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Yep. Innocent to proven guilty in a court of law. Neither myself, nor anyone else here is a court of law, and are under no obligation to abide by that theory.

More to the story? Sure. I mean it is being glossed over that the shooter or his pops is quite well acquainted with at least one prosecutor who had jurisdiction over the case, and the local police station. And the fact that this video was not made available til it was posted on social media, by someone that at least during this incident was supposededly on the side of said shooter.

Point blank simple question is this. Someone rolls up on you on a public street blocking your path and pulls a shotgun while someone else is at this point behind you. How are you going to react? Be all friendly and chatty? Invite them for tea And biscuits?
 
Wahoo95 said:
Not necessarily since they didnt witness a felony being committed. The 911 caller in the chase car only said that they believed he was the person that's responsible and not that they just witnessed him take anything. Referencing a past event doesn't clear any citizen to make an arrest. They should have allowed the police to do their job. Additionally, he was found with nothing...no goods or firearm. You aimply cannot go rounding up an armed posse to chase people down over suspected crimes in 2020.

The part about needing to actually witness the crime is important as it reduces the chance of mistaken identity. I can assure you if two armed men confronted me out the blue theydl'd better be in uniform or flashing a badge or they're gonna catch all the smoke I'm holding and we'll just see who's left standing.

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Apparently under Georgia law if it is a felony you only have to have reasonable suspicion to make citizens arrest. Andrew Branca has done a video blog on the video that I am about half way through and his conclusion so far is that it may be justified based on Georgia law.

Whether this is justified or not may depend on evidence other that the video like what was the demeanor of the two shooters, were they threatening or what. If somebody walks up to me with a shotgun, even though they may have the ability and opportunity, I may not be in jeopardy (AOJ triad), and therefore it would not be self defense if I shot them. Apparently the victim was not a choir boy and was on probation for carrying a pistol on an educational campus and obstructing a law enforcement officer and one of the shooters is a former law enforcement officer who may have had prior dealing with the victim.

Do I think the shooters are morally right, no, I do not think so. If it was me I would have let the guy go, and called the police. But what they did may be legally justified under Georgia law. It brings me back to an altercation I had a few years ago. My father was checking out his deceased mother's property when I homeless person took a swipe at him with a knife. Luckily he was not injured and came over to our place of business and told me. I jumped in my truck and followed the person attempting to call 911 on my phone a the same time. He stopped at a side street and I pulled in after him and then he proceeded to continue his walk up the main road. I turned around and continued to follow him and flagged down a highway patrolman who happened to pass me and informed him what happened. He was able to stop the guy and took him into custody until the sheriff's deputy arrived. In this instance no one was hurt, but it could have turned out like the one above. What if the guy would have took a swipe at me with the knife? Would I have been justified to defend myself, or would somebody exclaim that I should not have been following that person, just let the police handle it, when more that likely, if I would have, they would never have caught the person. Food for thought.
 
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OldNascar said:
So far what is missing is what incited the shooters to chase the runner down. There has to be cause for their actions.
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Ignorance.
Hatred.
Evil.

You right, Im sure there is a cause for their actions.
And just because there is a cause doesnt mean it's right or legal.

But you keep thinking that when things come out that it'll be TOTALLY different than the video shows...
 
blewis3 said:
Apparently under Georgia law if it is a felony you only have to have reasonable suspicion to make citizens arrest. Andrew Branca has done a video blog on the video that I am about half way through and his conclusion so far is that it may be justified based on Georgia law.

Whether this is justified or not may depend on evidence other that the video like what was the demeanor of the two shooters, were they threatening or what. If somebody walks up to me with a shotgun, even though they may have the ability and opportunity, I may not be in jeopardy (AOJ triad), and therefore it would not be self defense if I shot them. Apparently the victim was not a choir boy and was on probation for carrying a pistol on an educational campus and obstructing a law enforcement officer and one of the shooters is a former law enforcement officer who may have had prior dealing with the victim.

Do I think the shooters are morally right, no, I do not think so. If it was me I would have let the guy go, and called the police. But what they did may be legally justified under Georgia law. It brings me back to an altercation I had a few years ago. My father was checking out his deceased mother's property when I homeless person took a swipe at him with a knife. Luckily he was not injured and came over to our place of business and told me. I jumped in my truck and followed the person attempting to call 911 on my phone a the same time. He stopped at a side street and I pulled in after him and then he proceeded to continue his walk up the main road. I turned around and continued to follow him and flagged down a highway patrolman who happened to pass me and informed him what happened. He was able to stop the guy and took him into custody until the sheriff's deputy arrived. In this instance no one was hurt, but it could have turned out like the one above. What if the guy would have took a swipe at me with the knife? Would I have been justified to defend myself, or would somebody exclaim that I should not have been following that person, just let the police handle it, when more that likely, if I would have, they would never have caught the person. Food for thought.
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That reasonable suspicion doesnt count for past incidents. It has to be something you e just witnessed. It also doesnt cover you going after anyone as an armed posse in the fashion that they chose.

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shadowsbane said:
Point blank simple question is this. Someone rolls up on you on a public street blocking your path and pulls a shotgun while someone else is at this point behind you. How are you going to react? Be all friendly and chatty? Invite them for tea And biscuits?
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You've just asked a question that has been rolling around in my head on this thread. Seems to me that trying to go hands on, when someone has the big drop on you might not be the best of moves unless you really know what you're doing. I am referring here to the trying to grab the gun. In other words, staying calm and talking might be your better tactical decision. Of course, none of us were there so it's all arm chair quarterback. @blewis3 raises a good question regarding the jeopardy aspect. Clearly Ability and Opportunity was present but we don't know what was being said. Yeah, those guys are a-holes, but did the dead guy use his head? Its possible that even the a-holes are looking for the same thing a lot of common thugs are, respect (and deference) even if for the wrong reasons.
 
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Am I correct in assuming that every case the father worked on for the courts may come under suspicion if he's convicted?
 
Colion Noir did a piece on this, fwiw.



I commented, in part:

... I do feel it necessary to point out that there's a subtext here. I submit that the widespread media attention to this tragedy is due solely to the racial makeup of the adversaries. Had the incident involved all members of the same race (white or black) it would maybe have received some local attention. As it is, it will be used by the corrupt media manipulators to raise a false flag that obscures the real tragedy and cheapens the apparently senseless loss of Mr. Arbery's life. ...
 
SPST said:
If they were LEO and asked him to stop and he tried to take the LEO gun, then yes it would have been a justified shooting. These guys had no authority to tell this kid jogging down the street to do anything.
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So, you are ok that LEO has all right to point the gun at an innocent person, and that person has no rights, but shall stand still and let LEO do what he/she wants, right? However, as soon as the same LEO, spoiled by your enabling of such behavior, became ex-LEO such behavior becomes full and completely unacceptable.

I have just one question. Do you really consider the theory that you can spoil a person with unreasonable power for a couple of decades and then expect that they magically turn into toothless sheep just by the fact that they are retired?

I know that some people are unbelievably naive, but I am always surprised to meet them IRL. :-D
 
HMP said:
Ignorance.
Hatred.
Evil.

You right, Im sure there is a cause for their actions.
And just because there is a cause doesnt mean it's right or legal.

But you keep thinking that when things come out that it'll be TOTALLY different than the video shows...
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Damned straight I do, a lot has been stated that does not in any form prove legal justice, until that day comes all is pure speculation.
 
We all have the answers. We've all done something that we think fits the narrative in this story.
I for one have carried a gun when I've asked people what they are doing in a certain area I know they have no reason to be. I have built many houses and worked on many jobs. If you are there uninvited, you will be asked to leave. I don't do much jogging so that one won't work.
If confronted by people on a public street with shotguns, I am not charging them and fighting. I'm talking and or backing up. I'm not trying to take the gun away from them and doing a barn dance with it's barrel.

Space is your friend. And until they engage, my gun if I have one, stays hidden. There is no need two start a riot if none is present.

I also realize that I have been exposed to guns all my life, they don't automatically freak me out. Neither does a man with a shotgun asking me questions. I have always been able to read the situation and defuse whatever confusion there might be.

There is a lot of stupid on both sides of this fence. Let the system work and let us hope public opinion doesn't screw this one like it has tried to do so many in the past.
 
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