"God loves everyone...."

fieldgrade said:
Indeed it is.

Luke 9:5 King James Version (KJV)
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
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2 Corinthians 6:4 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

And SO many more.....
 
Chuckman said:
What if it's not a 'group,' but, say, a brother or sister (literal, not one in Christ)? Or son or daughter? It's not interpreting when it's built into scripture. I agree that interpretation is dangerous.
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I think it’s dependent upon the person and relationship. Let’s assume that a person you care about is doing something that harms them body or soul. I think like xtp308 said, you do what you can and then move on. Let that person know you love them and it hurts you when you see them doing something that results in them harming themselves but at some point you have to allow them to live their lives. Let them know there’s always a door open and a light in the window but if they want to come back in they have to be willing to change the behavior. You can help them if they’re sincere, but sincerity is them realizing that they need to change.
The other part of this is that sometimes your path is not their path and they need to walk their own road to get to where they need to be. Jesus associated with sinners, he didn’t just block them out. Obviously there’s a huge difference between not shutting someone out of your life for a choice they made and enabling them to continue their behavior. A lot of how you handle that person is dependent upon what the situation is. The important thing is to come from a place of love and compassion for that person even if it means letting them hit rock bottom so they can see where they’re steering their lives. Love takes many forms.
 
Cataphract said:
These are thought provoking conversations but I’ll ask again about the ramifications of us worrying about whether or not there is equal love or whether God hates those who love wickedness. Let’s suppose you find a group that you just know loves wickedness so God hates them. What then? How do you treat that group?
When humans start interpreting the will of the divine and acting upon those that they deem wicked things get to dark places pretty quickly. I’d rather leave judgement to God and assume as I stated earlier that no one is beyond redemption and it’s not my place to judge them more or less worthy than myself.
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We don't know the eternal state of anyone, and are not given the privilege of treating anyone any differently. I think @fieldgrade put it best when he said just to walk away if they are hostile. Indeed this was Jesus's flat instruction, and example. I have often thought the most awful words issued by Jesus are NOT the final judgement "depart from me, you accursed, into the everlasting flame prepared for the devil and his angels".... as awful as that is, the MORE ghastly command was to his followers re: the religious leaders of his day "leave them alone..... they are blind guides." God leaving me to my own will, my own desires, my own nature is something really terrible. Walk away, but leave the door open. People don't walk around with an "E" (elect) tatooed on their forehead. You never know what God may do with the most hostile persons. One of those hostile people who once stated "This is my life.. I don't need your help or anyone else figuring out how to live it".... that person is making this post.
 
Cataphract said:
I think it’s dependent upon the person and relationship. Let’s assume that a person you care about is doing something that harms them body or soul. I think like xtp308 said, you do what you can and then move on. Let that person know you love them and it hurts you when you see them doing something that results in them harming themselves but at some point you have to allow them to live their lives. Let them know there’s always a door open and a light in the window but if they want to come back in they have to be willing to change the behavior. You can help them if they’re sincere, but sincerity is them realizing that they need to change.
The other part of this is that sometimes your path is not their path and they need to walk their own road to get to where they need to be. Jesus associated with sinners, he didn’t just block them out. Obviously there’s a huge difference between not shutting someone out of your life for a choice they made and enabling them to continue their behavior. A lot of how you handle that person is dependent upon what the situation is. The important thing is to come from a place of love and compassion for that person even if it means letting them hit rock bottom so they can see where they’re steering their lives. Love takes many forms.
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I think this largely sums up how I feel.

I will say this: Jesus associated with sinners, and he didn't block them out. If they did not repent, however, he had harsh words about where they were headed and rebuked them.
 
All that said... there is a polarizing in modern society that should sharpen the person who knows God into an awareness that God HATES evil, and the more fundamental that evil is, the more he hates it. Issues like the basic definition of men (male and female), permanence of marriage, respect for life (especially defenseless life... at both ends of the age scale), respect for private property (thou shalt not steal), and the whole idea of men in the image of God, rather than mere creatures of the state.... these are issues that if they DON'T bring in us a revulsion, horror, hatred and antipathy, there is something really wrong with us. The Spirit of God within us will say "this is horrible." The question then becomes how we treat those with such horrible agendas. To "love them" does not mean to acquiesce and let them gallop along to destroy the society..., although it MAY mean we meekly submit to their hatred, rage and attacks when we stand up for good.
 
That's a great question, and there's a lot going on here. One problem may be translation and what we would call, in English, a vague antecedent. "His soul hates" is not necessarily referring to the soul of God. There are no commas in the Hebrew; there's also no true indication that "his" refers to God. It could just as easily be translated "the one who loves violence has a hateful soul." It's a matter of perspective and doing the best we can with an ancient text.

Another problem is the question of God having a soul. That seems to be a simplistic translation, as well. That word for soul refers to the most basic essence of living existence. Maybe that's a soul, maybe not. As is thought of currently, a human soul is how we connect to God. That doesn't require God to have a soul. So, who knows?

Then, look at the Old Testament view of violence. God is violent and encourages the Hebrew people to be violent. With that in mind, look at any Psalm as poetry or song, not as a basic, factual truth. This was a rough and tumble world. This was the Iron Age. It's impossible to view that time correctly through a modern lens. The poet here may be saying, "we are God's chosen people, and he enacts violence and hatred upon those we decide are against us." It's problematic.

Some responses refer to free will and bad things happening to good people because of bad choices. I don't think that's related. In addition to being a poor rationalization for the problem of pain, it dismisses much of liver experience. I wouldn't take that part too seriously.

Good luck as you wrestle with this passage.
 
Chuckman said:
What if it's not a 'group,' but, say, a brother or sister (literal, not one in Christ)? Or son or daughter? It's not interpreting when it's built into scripture. I agree that interpretation is dangerous.
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If it’s a beef between you, then the 70x70 rule applies. You must forgive them or He can’t forgive you.
If they’re just not receptive or hostile towards the word, pray for them and avoid conflict. Your actions/deeds/show of love is your witness far more than words. He’s got somebody else lined up to witness to them.
 
9mmEverything said:
Another problem is the question of God having a soul. That seems to be a simplistic translation, as well. That word for soul refers to the most basic essence of living existence. Maybe that's a soul, maybe not. As is thought of currently, a human soul is how we connect to God. That doesn't require God to have a soul. So, who knows?
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God created us in his image, so...
 
9mmEverything said:
So ... ? Help me out here.
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It could be that we have a soul, because he has a soul.

From https://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-have-a-soul.html

There are passages that indicate that God does have a soul: Leviticus 26:11 and Judges 10:16 use a form of the word nephesh in relation to God. And in Jeremiah 32:41, God makes a promise concerning Israel: “I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.” However, Scripture also refers to God having a hand or a face, applying human qualities to God in a figure of speech known as anthropomorphism. It could be that biblical descriptions of God’s “soul” are anthropomorphisms similar to descriptions of God’s “hands.” So, we must be careful about saying that God has a soul. God is Spirit (John 4:24), but nowhere in Scripture is it said that God is Soul or that He literally possesses a soul.

When we consider God the Son, we can be more certain. Jesus was (and is) fully God and fully man. When the Son of God became incarnate, He took on a sinless human nature, and this included a truly human soul. In His agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus said, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death” (Matthew 26:38). His human nature—including His soul—recoiled at the thought of crucifixion and all it entailed.
 
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tanstaafl72555 said:
We don't know the eternal state of anyone, and are not given the privilege of treating anyone any differently. I think @fieldgrade put it best when he said just to walk away if they are hostile. Indeed this was Jesus's flat instruction, and example. I have often thought the most awful words issued by Jesus are NOT the final judgement "depart from me, you accursed, into the everlasting flame prepared for the devil and his angels".... as awful as that is, the MORE ghastly command was to his followers re: the religious leaders of his day "leave them alone..... they are blind guides." God leaving me to my own will, my own desires, my own nature is something really terrible. Walk away, but leave the door open. People don't walk around with an "E" (elect) tatooed on their forehead. You never know what God may do with the most hostile persons. One of those hostile people who once stated "This is my life.. I don't need your help or anyone else figuring out how to live it".... that person is making this post.
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We were talking about this last night in a weekend Bible study. Sometimes God uses the most wicked to His Glory. Look at Paul, his job was to persecute the believers, torture them, kill them, throw them into poverty, and it all ended on a dirt road. We don’t know what’s in the true hearts of men, we can guess, but can also be wrong and I’d bet it’s more oft than not.
 
I would not say so much that God "has" a soul as he "IS" a soul and as the Father, does not, as we do, have corporeal parts. We are spirits/or souls (yes, 1 Thess 5:23 notwithstanding) with bodies. Jesus is an eternal MAN with a body who is also a soul. I am not sure I am able to distinguish between a soul and a spirit, though I have read a bunch of stuff from people who attempt to make the distinction. If there is some sort of ontological distinction between soul and spirit, it would show up in hell, I guess, where the emotions and intellect are "cut off" from the animating spirit of God. If that is the case, the "spirit" would be the component which is life..... Frankly these waters are too deep for me, and I am starting to speculate. I will just leave it at ---I tend to LEAN to the idea that man is not tripartite (body soul spirit) but rather body and soul with the soul being synonymous with spirit, with the same being true for God in that soul is spirit. Not ready to plant a flag and defend this one, but I will say that I have read pretty extensively on it and that is where I (shakily) stand.
 
MacEntyre said:
It could be that we have a soul, because he has a soul.

From https://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-have-a-soul.html

There are passages that indicate that God does have a soul: Leviticus 26:11 and Judges 10:16 use a form of the word nephesh in relation to God. And in Jeremiah 32:41, God makes a promise concerning Israel: “I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.” However, Scripture also refers to God having a hand or a face, applying human qualities to God in a figure of speech known as anthropomorphism. It could be that biblical descriptions of God’s “soul” are anthropomorphisms similar to descriptions of God’s “hands.” So, we must be careful about saying that God has a soul. God is Spirit (John 4:24), but nowhere in Scripture is it said that God is Soul or that He literally possesses a soul.

When we consider God the Son, we can be more certain. Jesus was (and is) fully God and fully man. When the Son of God became incarnate, He took on a sinless human nature, and this included a truly human soul. In His agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus said, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death” (Matthew 26:38). His human nature—including His soul—recoiled at the thought of crucifixion and all it entailed.
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This is good stuff. Thanks.
 
Darkhorse said:
search for the scriptures where God says " that he loves Jacob but hates Esau.

It also says that Esau sought repentance with tears but was not able to get it.

The scriptures do not contradict themselves

He was only sorry for the consequences of his poor decision brought upon himself not for his disobedience to God. Anytime one comes humbly before God he will abundantly pardon and forgive them. True repentence is what is missing these days.
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The truth!
 
tanstaafl72555 said:
Frankly these waters are too deep for me, and I am starting to speculate. I will just leave it at ---I tend to LEAN to the idea that man is not tripartite (body soul spirit) but rather body and soul with the soul being synonymous with spirit, with the same being true for God in that soul is spirit. Not ready to plant a flag and defend this one, but I will say that I have read pretty extensively on it and that is where I (shakily) stand.
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Official notice of momentary thread derailment.

I love talking about this...because it is truly speculative and we can agree or disagree and it does not matter.
I take the tri side of this argument, for a few reasons. And if I'm wrong ...... it doesn't matter.

Yes I know that spirit and soul are often used interchangeably. And I know the Old Testament makes no such distinction. But the New Testament does, and the Greek language is the perfect language to do this. And I know much greater Christians than I disagree with me. But, here are my "shaky" reasons.

First, the tri side of the argument makes teaching easier because its easier to systemize it for Bible study. I'll illustrate below.

Second, the New Testament scriptures give us the division very clearly in one verse:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

That scripture clearly speaks to the Word of God dividing our beings into spirit, soul, and body (joints and marrow). The one passage that speaks to a division...divides by 3. I don't want to make a doctrine on this verse alone, and yes there are extremely compelling teaching that points to the 2 part division. But this passage exists, and must be accounted for.

I ran into a Pastor in Texas back when W was president, and his study on this convinced Me. I'll include some of his thoughts below

The Greek word for "Soul" ψυχή [psuchē] is where we get psyche from; think..."psychological", "psychology" etc. The soul or "psyche" encompasses our mind, will, and emotions.

The Greek word for "spirit " is "πνεῦμα" [pneuma]. Think..."breath" or "air". Its where we get our English words pneumatic, pneumonia, etc. When you think of ghosts, you're thinking of this word for spirit. The Christian teaching that scripture is inspired or " God breathed"....it is done so by the Holy Spirit (pneuma).

That Texas preacher put it that man is first seen as a physical body, the next level is the soul ( mind, will, emotions), but at the center of our being is our spirit. The spirit is the "heart of the matter". The spirit is the divine spark that God ignites in us upon our creation. This word pnuema...or breath...think to how God breathed into Adam at his creation.

A lot of self help teaching and modern teaching from "experts" give only spurious or temporary relief to our existential crises in life. It's because this "psychological" approach to mental health issues and illnesses is only penetrating to the level of the soul (mind, will, emotions) when the issues are deeper than our psyche; they're issues of the spirit...or "heart". Jeremiah 17:10 says God searches the heart of man; He goes to the bottom of our being. That's where healing begins.

Also there is the teaching of "was saved", "am being saved", and "will be saved", in regards to God's complete plan of salvation in the "already but not yet" reality of Christian life. This is where the spirit, soul, and body division makes it easier to teach. Initially we are saved by faith in Christ. This is the beginning of Christian life. We where dead to sin, but God saved us, we are a new creation; this is the spiritual part..."I was saved".

The "am being saved" is not technically salvation, it is sanctification or Christian maturity. We are being perfected [not perfect...not talking about sinless perfection]. This is where our mind, will, and emotions [our soul] are being transformed by the renewing of our mind, by the progressive sanctification by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit grows us up, so we can be more effective ministers of the Gospel, and give glory to God. Beholding God, we are changed. Sanctified, or set apart" is a great idea to explain Christian maturity .

The "will be saved" part is when Jesus comes in his 2nd advent, we meet him in the air with new spiritual bodies that are changed to incorruptible sin free bodies. That's "will be saved", as in the entire work of redemption ends at Christ's return; sin is no longer relevant to us then.

The spirit, soul, body tri-part of man idea systematizes this and makes it easier to teach, or understand. At least in my opinion.
This is all based on the soul being made up of our mind, will , and emotions.
That Texas preacher had a whole long study on this about in which he used discipleship and maturity interchangeably. It made a lot of sense to me.


Derailment over
 
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