You know that everyone is always blaming the Gun when there is a shooting. We know that the gun didn't do it itself, but I would be interested in a tox screening on the killers and see how many of these killers had drugs playing a part in their actions. I know that suicide is one of the big ones that politicians keep talking about and a lot of them are drug related. It's just they used a gun instead of another means. The death would still occur regardless.
GUNS OR DRUGS
- Thread starter dtuttle
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alpharius
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
Britain will inevitably have less gun deaths than the US simply because the people are not allowed to own guns. That kind of gun control does work.
But.....I still choose the US. A dangerous freedom is better than a safe tyranny. That said, guns are still a relatively minor danger, in absolute terms. You are far more likely to die by heart attack or cancer than by gunshot. We should outlaw fast food before we ban guns.
I tend to agree with Me.
Many times, in my limited experience, suicide comes in two main forms. 1, the person is deeply troubled, cant figure a way out of a problem or is suffering a deeply painful emotional crises. They then plan and execute. It is relatively calculated and usually successful in their attempt. They use a method (such as a firearm) that best accomplishes their goal. The 2nd, are people who are hurting deeply and want help/attention. These people often opt for slower or less "certain" methods such as taking pills or the like. Not always, of course.
I think just flattly saying "If we got rid of guns they would just find another way" is somewhat lazy and ignores the deeper issues that can lead someone to make that ultimate, horrid, and tragic choice.
Also, I want to remind everyone that we do have members of this forum who have been personally impacted by suicide and to make sure we treat this subject with the utmost of seriousness.
Many times, in my limited experience, suicide comes in two main forms. 1, the person is deeply troubled, cant figure a way out of a problem or is suffering a deeply painful emotional crises. They then plan and execute. It is relatively calculated and usually successful in their attempt. They use a method (such as a firearm) that best accomplishes their goal. The 2nd, are people who are hurting deeply and want help/attention. These people often opt for slower or less "certain" methods such as taking pills or the like. Not always, of course.
I think just flattly saying "If we got rid of guns they would just find another way" is somewhat lazy and ignores the deeper issues that can lead someone to make that ultimate, horrid, and tragic choice.
Also, I want to remind everyone that we do have members of this forum who have been personally impacted by suicide and to make sure we treat this subject with the utmost of seriousness.
They won’t do what it takes to keep drugs out of criminals hands they won’t keep guns out of them either. The only guns they attack are in law abiding citizens possession.
The majority of the statistics of gun violence is from suicide. I'm strongly against the idea of red flag laws and of barring people with mental health issues from owning firearms due to how easily such a system could be abused, but I believe we as a society need stronger mental health support and further research into preventing suicide of all methods. Most successful suicide attempts are done by men and teenagers and the elderly are disproportionately overrepresented in suicide statistics. It is true that suicide is done out of impulse in the vast majority of cases. Slightly off-topic, but I hold a relatively unconventional view in that a fraction of suicides are permissible in the sense that people should have the agency to dictate when their life ends, especially in the case of an overwhelming burden such as a terminal illness. That is not to say I endorse or condone suicide. I do think that the argument "if they didn't have a gun, they'd just find a different way to kill themselves" holds some truth as South Korea and Japan both have very strict gun regulations but also some of the highest suicide rates in the world.
If you or someone you know seems to be struggling, please reach out to them and your resources. I struggled with depression for many years and it was the help of my support network that allowed me to still be here today. A simple wellness check and a brief, pleasant conversation can turn someone's whole life around. Depression, while oftentimes invisible, is a real physiologic illness just like heart disease or a broken bone and it claims millions of people a year worldwide.
If you or someone you know seems to be struggling, please reach out to them and your resources. I struggled with depression for many years and it was the help of my support network that allowed me to still be here today. A simple wellness check and a brief, pleasant conversation can turn someone's whole life around. Depression, while oftentimes invisible, is a real physiologic illness just like heart disease or a broken bone and it claims millions of people a year worldwide.
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Next, let’s see how many ritual suicides wouldn’t have happened if knives were magically disappeared.
If someone wants to die, they will find a way.
I know two guys who killed themselves with guns, only both died in agony. One woke up and had to shoot himself again. Best to use a cannon rather than a .32acp.
The other guy shot himself in the heart, only the gun wasn’t aimed at the correct place to impact the heart muscle. He eventually bled out, since a .44 Magnum JHP left a bloody big exit wound.
When you get everyone to acknowledge that nobody can accurately predict who will be the next mentally ill person to try and kill themselves, then you will see the fallacy of trying to prevent suicides by blaming a gun or it’s easy availability.
Doesn’t matter what their method, many will botch the job. Guns may be more effective than stepping in front of a speeding locomotive, but I kinda doubt it. Either can be painless, but if you are dead, what difference did it make how much it hurt to die?
Either could just mangle you, and leave you a vegetable for decades. Anyone blaming the locomotive for being easily available and effective? Hell, the locomotive is free, providing equal opportunity for all and readily available in most locations.
If guns cause you such distress that you feel the inner leftist Karen forcing you to bow down at the alter of red flag, confiscation, etc., perhaps you should do yourself a favor and destroy all guns in your possession🤔
Danger Will Robinson! Absence makes the heart grow fonder 😪
If someone wants to die, they will find a way.
I know two guys who killed themselves with guns, only both died in agony. One woke up and had to shoot himself again. Best to use a cannon rather than a .32acp.
The other guy shot himself in the heart, only the gun wasn’t aimed at the correct place to impact the heart muscle. He eventually bled out, since a .44 Magnum JHP left a bloody big exit wound.
When you get everyone to acknowledge that nobody can accurately predict who will be the next mentally ill person to try and kill themselves, then you will see the fallacy of trying to prevent suicides by blaming a gun or it’s easy availability.
Doesn’t matter what their method, many will botch the job. Guns may be more effective than stepping in front of a speeding locomotive, but I kinda doubt it. Either can be painless, but if you are dead, what difference did it make how much it hurt to die?
Either could just mangle you, and leave you a vegetable for decades. Anyone blaming the locomotive for being easily available and effective? Hell, the locomotive is free, providing equal opportunity for all and readily available in most locations.
If guns cause you such distress that you feel the inner leftist Karen forcing you to bow down at the alter of red flag, confiscation, etc., perhaps you should do yourself a favor and destroy all guns in your possession🤔
Danger Will Robinson! Absence makes the heart grow fonder 😪
This, a thousand times.
Troutmaster13
Well-Known Member
I lost my best friend to suicide on January 3rd 2022. He chose drinking bleach over a gun. We talked on the phone on New Year's eve, and everything seemed fine. Nothing would indicate that he was going to end his life 3 days later. Mental illness needs to be addressed with actions, NOT lip service. Would he have used a gun, if he had one, I don't know, maybe. I leave that to the court of public opinion to decide. We all need to do a better job relating to mental illness.
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I think I'm more interested in what drugs most mass shooters are on. They don't want to have that conversation. It looks like we already know that most of them are on similar pharmaceuticals.
Timfoilhat
Time is my accomplice
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Benefactor
Life Member
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It's not clear to me if the OP is referring to "illegal" drugs or Pharma stuff like SSRIs. If he's talking about SSRIs good luck getting the bought and paid for congress to crack that golden egg.
While I don't disagree, I do think that the availability of fentanyl is making suicide by OD much more attainable and effective, and will continue to bring the "would happen anyways" numbers closer to reality. This wasn't the case even a few years ago before the prevalence of fentanyl skyrocketed.
OP
I am referring to illegal drug use but you are correct in saying any drug abuse. I have personal experience with a family member who used about everything out there and can't count the number of times that they wanted to commit suicide because of the drugs. Also, 2 distant relatives who commuted suicide and neither of them used a firearm. It's a tradjey any way you look at it.
Troutmaster13
Well-Known Member
My wife's cousin was hooked on painkillers, to the point that the LE was closing in on him and about to be arrested, sadly, he ended his life (by gun). Family members knew what was going on, and did nothing to intervene
and possibly save his life. I wonder if this is common that family & friends know what is really going on with a family member and they choose to ignore it. Please, everyone needs to step up, and just maybe we can save lives.
I know it's not easy, but we must try.
and possibly save his life. I wonder if this is common that family & friends know what is really going on with a family member and they choose to ignore it. Please, everyone needs to step up, and just maybe we can save lives.
I know it's not easy, but we must try.
There's not a whole lot that can be done, until and unless the person involved is willing to seek and accept help.
It's the sad truth.
Yes, this. We can help, try to help, do everything we can BUT the one addicted has to be WILLING to get help. This hits home right now. A very close relative just finished a month of rehab this past week. He was on cocaine for 2 years. No one could/would do anything so I have to do a lot of convincing to his wife and found out some things he was doing that wasn’t good. Finally had an “intervention” and he finally was willing to get help. It still took him 2 weeks after that night to get it but it came. Now I’m praying for a lifestyle change or it’ll happen again.
Just picked up some firearms from a guy that doesn’t need/want them anymore because of grandkids in the house and what not. He just lost his oldest grandson to overdose. He just got out of rehab and got back in the same situation and crowd. Then thinking he could pick up where he left off and took way too much. My heart is broken for the family and now I’m terrified because that’s what I’m afraid of with the person I know.
Depression/mental illness is just like any other disease/cancer. The one infected can’t help it in most cases and need medical help. I was there 2 years ago and luckily I have a wife that loves me and helped me get the help I needed. If not, who knows.
My wife went through really bad postpartum in both pregnancies. The second was twins and I think the postpartum was double than the first. That was 4 years ago and she is still recovering from it.
Access to guns and suicide are a touchy subject but I would like to throw in that there are several developed countries with persistently high suicide rates and hardly any guns - Japan would be one of those.
M4gery4life
Well-Known Member
Japan may not have guns, but they do have the suicide forest...