handheld range with an external antenna

Ikarus1

Avtomat Krishna-kov
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tonight I called into a couple 2m nets with my QYT KT8900D ~20 watt mobile rig and afterwards went back to enjoy a night on the porch. I had temporarily rigged my first homemade j-pole on a 5ft PVC pipe on a 10.5' metal chainlink top post for testing.
The bottom.of the pipe is in a cast iron patio umbrella base and is portable.

Using my TYT 8 watt handheld, I was able to hit a UHF 440 repeater in Dallas NC over 40 miles away, with some weak signals reported. I added another 10.5' section of pipe and BAM! Signals went thru the roof. I was full quieting and reports of good audio all around.

When I get an antenna up and over the the peak of the roof I expect good things. Height is indeed might when it comes to antennas, especially simple ones like a cooler j-pole
 
pics of the 'shack' lol
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Nice job, now you are hooked on antenna construction. Height and quality coax, low loss for long runs.
 
Nice job, now you are hooked on antenna construction. Height and quality coax, low loss for long runs.
yeah I have a 75ft length of LMR400 type coax cable but its got N connectors, and its stiff as hell. It would be much easier to run that stuff under the house than try and snake it thru the wall so I am trying to figure out a better way. Probably just use adapters, and short runs of RG8X to connect on the ends.

I am currently building another J-pole and using a square panel type PL259 instead of the round one. I don't trust it.

FWIW this is my SWR reading on VHF with my TYT handheld from last night. I definitely built a good one.
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That would work. The impedance of RG8X is much higher and it gets worse with frequency, but over a short distance the effect will be minimal.
yeah that VSWR was with 30ft of RG8X with a single loop balun thru a ferrite core. I could probably cut that run in half and use the LMR400 to do most of the run
 
yeah that VSWR was with 30ft of RG8X with a single loop balun thru a ferrite core. I could probably cut that run in half and use the LMR400 to do most of the run
Shouldn't impact the SWR. If it does, you know you've got a bad connection somewhere. What it will do is lower the loss and put more signal in the air.
 
Shouldn't impact the SWR. If it does, you know you've got a bad connection somewhere. What it will do is lower the loss and put more signal in the air.

maybe it was a mistake, but I thought that longer coax (no matter the loss) runs increase the SWR ever slightly, just like excess adapters, connectors, etc. Basically anything connected electrically? Even being close to metal objects will affect the standing waves, correct?
 
maybe it was a mistake, but I thought that longer coax (no matter the loss) runs increase the SWR ever slightly, just like excess adapters, connectors, etc. Basically anything connected electrically? Even being close to metal objects will affect the standing waves, correct?
Very good question. It is also one that gets into some of the esoteric 'black magic' realm of electricity and electronics. The Wikipedia article on SWR does a pretty good job of explaining it, assuming you understand some of the underlying terminology and principles. The short answer is that it is a measure of impedance matching.

I'll put on my teaching cap and try to explain it. I apologize if I appear to be "talking down" but I would rather tell you something you know than not tell you something that you don't.
Impedance, like resistance, works in opposition to the flow of electricity. Resistance creates heat and the power is loss to it. In addition to resistance there are (linear and passive) components of inductance and capacitance that store energy and release it but it isn't lost but stored in the magnetic and electric field of the device respectively.

A transmission line, unlike like a normal circuit such as a light bulb plugged in to the socket, has a time component to it in that the voltage signal travels down the wire rather than appearing uniformly across the wire at all time. The transmission line is called a 'distributed' circuit and the light bulb would be called a 'lumped' circuit. Whether a circuit behaves as a distributed or lumped one depends upon the electrical length of the connections and wires relative to the physical length. Undoubtedly you've noticed the use of frequency and wavelength almost interchangeably and from your ham radio license study know that the conversion is wave_length = 3.0x10^9 / frequency and vice versa. Likewise you know that the wave length is the distance that the wave would travel in one cycle in a vacuum. (It's not important to this topic, but different types of cable have different propagation velocities that change this electrical length). Needless to say in the RF world, the coax acts like a distributed circuit or a transmission line.

In the distributed circuit realm the trams mission line is modeled as a series connection of capacitors and inductors and the 'characteristic impedance' of the transmission line is the ratio of the capacitance to inductance. It is also the ratio of the voltage to the current, hence it is an impedance. The actual value changes along the transmission line. See this diagram: https://goo.gl/images/o1NkQf Consequently, in the raw sense, yes, the impedance will vary along the length, in a frequency dependent fashion and as SWR is a measure of reflection due to impedance mismatch, it too will vary along the line. In fact, this principle is sometimes used to tune or match a transmission line.

With the above as the backdrop, here is the explaination from the Wikipedia page as to why the length of the coax is immaterial in terms of SWR in a radio application. In short the transmitter is designed to "look into" the transmission line and see it as a restive circuit. Therefor, we match the LOAD (antenna) to the transmission line so that the source sees the load as if the transmission line weren't there. In other words, the SWR becomes a measure match between the transmitter and the antenna.

however typical RF sources such as transmitters and signal generators are designed to look into a purely resistive load impedance such as 50Ω or 75Ω, corresponding to common transmission lines' characteristic impedances. In those cases, matching the load to the transmission line, Zload=Z0, always ensures that the source will see the same load impedance as if the transmission line weren't there. This is identical to a 1:1 SWR. This condition ( Zload=Z0) also means that the load seen by the source is independent of the transmission line's electrical length. Since the electrical length of a physical segment of transmission line depends on the signal frequency, violation of this condition means that the impedance seen by the source through the transmission line becomes a function of frequency (especially if the line is long), even if Zload is frequency-independent. So in practice, a good SWR (near 1:1) implies a transmitter's output seeing the exact impedance it expects for optimum and safe operation.
 
Very good question. It is also one that gets into some of the esoteric 'black magic' realm of electricity and electronics. The Wikipedia article on SWR does a pretty good job of explaining it, assuming you understand some of the underlying terminology and principles. The short answer is that it is a measure of impedance matching.

I'll put on my teaching cap and try to explain it. I apologize if I appear to be "talking down" but I would rather tell you something you know than not tell you something that you don't.
Impedance, like resistance, works in opposition to the flow of electricity. Resistance creates heat and the power is loss to it. In addition to resistance there are (linear and passive) components of inductance and capacitance that store energy and release it but it isn't lost but stored in the magnetic and electric field of the device respectively.

A transmission line, unlike like a normal circuit such as a light bulb plugged in to the socket, has a time component to it in that the voltage signal travels down the wire rather than appearing uniformly across the wire at all time. The transmission line is called a 'distributed' circuit and the light bulb would be called a 'lumped' circuit. Whether a circuit behaves as a distributed or lumped one depends upon the electrical length of the connections and wires relative to the physical length. Undoubtedly you've noticed the use of frequency and wavelength almost interchangeably and from your ham radio license study know that the conversion is wave_length = 3.0x10^9 / frequency and vice versa. Likewise you know that the wave length is the distance that the wave would travel in one cycle in a vacuum. (It's not important to this topic, but different types of cable have different propagation velocities that change this electrical length). Needless to say in the RF world, the coax acts like a distributed circuit or a transmission line.

In the distributed circuit realm the trams mission line is modeled as a series connection of capacitors and inductors and the 'characteristic impedance' of the transmission line is the ratio of the capacitance to inductance. It is also the ratio of the voltage to the current, hence it is an impedance. The actual value changes along the transmission line. See this diagram: https://goo.gl/images/o1NkQf Consequently, in the raw sense, yes, the impedance will vary along the length, in a frequency dependent fashion and as SWR is a measure of reflection due to impedance mismatch, it too will vary along the line. In fact, this principle is sometimes used to tune or match a transmission line.

With the above as the backdrop, here is the explaination from the Wikipedia page as to why the length of the coax is immaterial in terms of SWR in a radio application. In short the transmitter is designed to "look into" the transmission line and see it as a restive circuit. Therefor, we match the LOAD (antenna) to the transmission line so that the source sees the load as if the transmission line weren't there. In other words, the SWR becomes a measure match between the transmitter and the antenna.

Yep. The time component is what I was not in complete understanding of. It's RF not constant voltage in a circuit....and those are waves. I need to study up for General ;)
 
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well turns out that today's breezy took out my temporary antenna setup. Blew over on the deck, and turned the J-pole into a pretzel.

Thankfully, I had begun construction on a new antenna and had all the lengths cut, so I unsoldered the bent pieces and soldered the straight pieces back together. I took out a 10ft section of mast (since it is now slightly bent) and called into the 9pm SCARC club net on 146.9850 with my 8 watt handi-scratchie and was able to get in. Not bad for 20 miles of hilly terrain between here and Albemarle
 
I wouldn't bother replacing 30 ft of RG8X with LMR400. If you look up the loss tables at that frequency, it's not going to be significant enough to bother with and you'll likely not notice any difference. Loss calculator shows less than half a dB difference between the two for that length/freq/SWR. That's not really worth the effort IMHO.

There's an adage about antennas not being big enough until they blow down. The good thing about a Jpole is that they're pretty quick to replace. Congrats on building , testing and successfully deploying a nice antenna!
 
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I wouldn't bother replacing 30 ft of RG8X with LMR400. If you look up the loss tables at that frequency, it's not going to be significant enough to bother with and you'll likely not notice any difference. Loss calculator shows less than half a dB difference between the two for that length/freq/SWR. That's not really worth the effort IMHO.

There's an adage about antennas not being big enough until they blow down. The good thing about a Jpole is that they're pretty quick to replace. Congrats on building , testing and successfully deploying a nice antenna!
I will be running 75-100ft of cable on the final run so....may make a bit of difference there
esp with UHF
 
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