Honor guard not drop safe

Interesting timing. I visited a LGS today, one I'd never been to before. They had 3 of these at very interesting prices. I came THAT close. :D
 
Their price was 10% lower OTD than the cheapest online price I've seen.
 
Wow. They know gun is unsafe and were trying to hide it and shush the guy up!
This video below is even more damning. Man they really screwed themselves. Don't they realize how fast this stuff travels in the firearm community? Basically, you bump yer gun hard enough and it shoots you at worst, and kills trigger at best!
Don't think I'll be visiting the Firearm Blog anymore.
Wouldn't buy this gun anyway, as Glocks exist, but sheesh!

 
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This is disconcerting. I have unsubscribed from TFB. I've carried the Honor Guard for 2 years, got 4000 rounds thru it with zero problems. But this is scary. Mine will occupy the safe until a fix is found.
 
Assuming there really is a problem that requires a recall (ala Sig), I wonder whether such a small, new company has the resources necessary. We could be talking about the return and reworking of every gun they've ever sold, given they only produce this one model. If it costs $100 per gun (roundtrip shipping, parts, labor, etc.), that'd be close to or more than the total gross profit on the original sale of the gun. :eek:

When I fondled one yesterday, I loved the sights but found the trigger pull a bit harder than I'd prefer. The price tag put it into the current Shield 1.0 giveaway category. I was so close.
 
Love2shoot said:
I would be curious if you post the results here, how easy you find it to make it strike, if at all.
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I will.
Here's the thing that bothers me. The owner of Honor Defense is Gary Ramey...cool dude, and easy to get a hold of and talk to. In his Facebook page he posted the results from an independent company that tests all guns for drop firing and the Honor Guard passed with flying colors. I'm to understand that Sig p320 passed the tests as well. Nobody knew Sig had a problem until that Texas cop dropped his just right at the right angle and it went off. So how many other guns have this problem? If the testing companies didn't know to check guns this way, I'm sure others have similar problems.
I'll be testing all my Glocks, the 2 Shield' s I have, and the Honor Guard.
 
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Jeppo said:
Assuming there really is a problem that requires a recall (ala Sig), I wonder whether such a small, new company has the resources necessary. We could be talking about the return and reworking of every gun they've ever sold, given they only produce this one model. If it costs $100 per gun (roundtrip shipping, parts, labor, etc.), that'd be close to or more than the total gross profit on the original sale of the gun. :eek:

When I fondled one yesterday, I loved the sights but found the trigger pull a bit harder than I'd prefer. The price tag put it into the current Shield 1.0 giveaway category. I was so close.
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If they work this out, and you still want to buy one, the trigger smooth out with use and settles on about 6 1/2 pounds.
However, since they are a small company, this may be a fatal problem for them.
 
Starkherz199 said:
If the testing companies didn't know to check guns this way, I'm sure others have similar problems.
I'll be testing all my Glocks, the 2 Shield' s I have, and the Honor Guard.
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I'm sure Sig fanbois have been hitting Glocks with mallets ever since the news of the P320 came out, so I think we'd know if Glocks had this problem.
 
Yea I would imagine a total recall would kill a small company like this in a startup phase trying to break into the market. Along with the financial cost, who is going to put faith in a new company that just had a recall? I wouldnt.
 
Love2shoot said:
Yea I would imagine a total recall would kill a small company like this in a startup phase trying to break into the market. Along with the financial cost, who is going to put faith in a new company that just had a recall? I wouldnt.
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Actually, it might be a good time to buy one NIB and put it in the farthest corner of the safe. It could become a collectors item in the far distant future.
 
I worked for most of my life with a large company who would let other companies take the lead with new products. My company would then make improvements on the first design. I guess I'm the same way about guns to some extent. Wait until a new product has proven itself, then consider it worthy of putting down $500 +/- as an investment of time and money.
 
Starkherz199 said:
I will.
Here's the thing that bothers me. The owner of Honor Defense is Gary Ramey...cool dude, and easy to get a hold of and talk to. In his Facebook page he posted the results from an independent company that tests all guns for drop firing and the Honor Guard passed with flying colors. I'm to understand that Sig p320 passed the tests as well. Nobody knew Sig had a problem until that Texas cop dropped his just right at the right angle and it went off. So how many other guns have this problem? If the testing companies didn't know to check guns this way, I'm sure others have similar problems.
I'll be testing all my Glocks, the 2 Shield' s I have, and the Honor Guard.
Click to expand...

The testing companies largely came into existence to meet various state requirements. And the state requirements were largely written by people who knew little or nothing about guns and only responded to reported incidents.

What I have not seen (even after the P320 debacle) is any description of testing that starts with an analysis of how a specific gun functions and how that particular design might fail. Given that there are literally millions of different attitudes in which a gun can be dropped, even before considering differing drop heights, it is impossible to test everything. Unfortunately, current testing focuses on how a few other guns have failed in the past rather than thinking about how a particular gun might be likely to fail.
 
Meckmeister said:
I worked for most of my life with a large company who would let other companies take the lead with new products. My company would then make improvements on the first design. I guess I'm the same way about guns to some extent. Wait until a new product has proven itself, then consider it worthy of putting down $500 +/- as an investment of time and money.
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That is pretty much what happened here, from what I understand:

HD liked the Sig P320, thought it was well proven, and designed their gun to improve upon this design.
 
Went ahead and tried this last night. I used a rubber mallet and a primed case. With sufficient force, it did ignite the primer. Also tried it without a case, and it did move the striker forward. You have to hit it in a very specific spot. Hit it in the side or top and it won't set it off. Also, if you put it in a vise, it won't go off if you've hit it in the back. I guess this is why it passed all the tests; if I'm not mistaken they put it in a vise and beat it up.
So...i guess it stays in the safe for now.
 
Starkherz199 said:
Went ahead and tried this last night. I used a rubber mallet and a primed case. With sufficient force, it did ignite the primer. Also tried it without a case, and it did move the striker forward. You have to hit it in a very specific spot. Hit it in the side or top and it won't set it off. Also, if you put it in a vise, it won't go off if you've hit it in the back. I guess this is why it passed all the tests; if I'm not mistaken they put it in a vise and beat it up.
So...i guess it stays in the safe for now.
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Man, that's a bummer. Thanks for checking it out.
 
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...fense-no-recall-honor-guard-drop-safe-issues/

Honor Defense: No Recall for Honor Guard Drop Safe Issues

Hi Xxxx,
Thanks for your note.
The truth of the matter is that all firearms will discharge if handled abusively. That is true for any brand or model.
We believe that Honor Defense makes the best single stack 9mm pistols. We have tested internally and submitted the firearms for testing by independent labs.
The product exceeded all industry abusive handling tests and proven to be more accurate than other similar sized firearms.
Gary
 
Jeppo said:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...fense-no-recall-honor-guard-drop-safe-issues/

Honor Defense: No Recall for Honor Guard Drop Safe Issues

Hi Xxxx,
Thanks for your note.
The truth of the matter is that all firearms will discharge if handled abusively. That is true for any brand or model.
We believe that Honor Defense makes the best single stack 9mm pistols. We have tested internally and submitted the firearms for testing by independent labs.
The product exceeded all industry abusive handling tests and proven to be more accurate than other similar sized firearms.
Gary
Click to expand...
There's more to this story. The guy that found this...Patrick...formally of TFB brought this to Gary Ramey of Honor Defense attention. Gary sent him back a video of him with a Honor Guard in a bench vise, beating it until the slide cracked...but not going off. I could see him disbelieving that his firearm was unsafe, especially after the independent company drop tested it as safe. From now on, companies are going to have to administer the hand held mallet test. The way that the "independent " gun testers look at firearms needs to be updated apparently. Sig, and now Honor Defense slipped by.
MY gun is still sitting in the safe...waiting a fix. Smh...back to the Shield I guess.
 
Sample size of one is inconclusive, and the company isn't acting like there's a wide spread problem. There's definitely a problem with that one...
 
Jeppo said:
We have tested internally and submitted the firearms for testing by independent labs.
The product exceeded all industry abusive handling tests and proven to be more accurate than other similar sized firearms.
Click to expand...

Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, SIG's press release about the "Voluntary Upgrade of P320 Pistol"
The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturersā€™ Institute, Inc. (SAAMIĀ®), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.
.....
Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.
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I chatted wirh Gary Ramey on Messenger. He said his company was going to make this right. I love the gun and will give them a chance to fix it. I have always liked the the fact that all their employees are veterans. I'll post back here with results.
 
So they are going to fix the pistols but theyā€™re still holding fast to the ā€œNothing wrong with our guns, you guys are mis-using themā€ line. I call BS on that BS. We donā€™t live in a lab - they have to work in the real worl.
 
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Catfish said:
So they are going to fix the pistols but theyā€™re still holding fast to the ā€œNothing wrong with our guns, you guys are mis-using themā€ line. I call BS on that BS. We donā€™t live in a lab - they have to work in the real worl.
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From my research, the problem is with the earlier serial # guns. It seems along the way they lightened up the trigger shoe, and made incremental changes to the sear. It seems the fix is to replace the spring under the sear with a stiffer one, and use a lighter striker. I love this gun so I'll see it thru and if the changes they make work, I'll stick with it. I have one of the earlier models...maybe one of the first sold here in NC. Others I've talked to with later serial number guns, cannot duplicate the malfunction. From behind the scenes, this issue is being addressed with the independent company that does drop tests with all pistol makers. Hopefully this incident, and the P320 issue will cause the independent company to add the mallet test to their procedure, and this will end up being a positive to all consumers in the long run.
I am not adverse to dumping a gun. I'll do it in a heartbeat. However, the owner of Honor Defense has been real easy to get in touch with, and has been stand up with me in my interactions with him about this issue. For that reason alone, I'm still in standby mode with my gun staying in the safe. We'll see from here.
 
Too be fair beating the back end of a gun with a mallet to make it discharge is totally misuse.

Of course a lot of revolvers out there would also fail this test but lets just say it's the users fault for going out with all chambers loaded. ;)
 
I am interested in one of these as I need a carry pistol and the price point and features are nice....they offer a free upgrade if so desired.

I will say up front I did not watch the full video so I will ask if this was tested on a model with or without a safety? And if so...was it repeated in the other model?

I ask this because I noticed the Shield with a safety is easier to rack than the model without a safety. This could imply a difference in spring tension and could this affect the drop issue?
 
They've shipped so many Shields, one would think any issues would have been uncovered by now.
 
molonlabe said:
I am interested in one of these as I need a carry pistol and the price point and features are nice....they offer a free upgrade if so desired.

I will say up front I did not watch the full video so I will ask if this was tested on a model with or without a safety? And if so...was it repeated in the other model?

I ask this because I noticed the Shield with a safety is easier to rack than the model without a safety. This could imply a difference in spring tension and could this affect the drop issue?
Click to expand...
While the look and outline of the Honor Defense and Shield are almost identical, inside they are both different guns. As far as the Shield safety version and non safety, they rack the same to me. Only difference is when the recoil spring gets a lot of rounds on it. The Shield does not have a drop issue because they have a trigger safety...that hinged monstrosity thingy.
The HD does not, but with the upgrade they have fixed the problem, similar to the Sig P320.
 
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