Hopefully we'll get some 1911's

Discussion in 'Military Surplus - Curios & Relics' started by AD43576, Jul 19, 2017.

  1. AD43576

    AD43576 Well-Known Member Charter Member Supporting Member

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  2. pipboy344

    pipboy344 Myrtle Beach, SC

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    Estimated price is $1,000+, and most are expected to be auctioned. Just atrocious
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  3. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Get over it, snowflake. Charter Life Member

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    Heh! $1,000 for Army M1911's?

    Who's running this auction, Armslist?
     
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  4. foopid stucker

    foopid stucker Member

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    A 1911 with a half million rounds through it? Not for me...
    Might be worth it if it comes with a documented history of all its journeys/battles/kills
     
  5. Button Pusher

    Button Pusher Well-Known Member Benefactor

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    I will pass and buy a Ruger 1911 Target.
    Update: I snapped up a new Ruger SR1911 Commander $6711 blem, last month from CDNN Sports.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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  6. pipboy344

    pipboy344 Myrtle Beach, SC

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    Colt needs to make the WWII repros again and not mess it up this time. Considering the retro Franken-AR15 are going to be $2,500 I doubt it’d be affordable though.
     
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  7. tanstaafl72555

    tanstaafl72555 Banned for Life Life Member Vendor

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    everyone.... including CMP......, and yes, even rhe US Government, eventually has to acknowledge the basic laws of supply and demand. If there is no public demand for 1000 dollar 1911s beat all to heck, then they will either 1) lower prices or 2) seek a non public market. They don't have the storage capacity to just sit on them the way USGOV does.
     
  8. Combat Diver

    Combat Diver Active Member

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    If you want a shooter go get a RIA for $400, but if you want a piece of history then you may want to place a order. Unlike a police officer I didn't get to keep my issued sidearm when I retired. I was first issued a M1911A1 in 84' and took one to Haiti in 95', Iraq 03-08' and in Afghanistan in 14'. There are still a few serving with SOCOM in Astan today. I know as I fix them. Newest news from CMP today.



    CMP 1911 Information

    The CMP Board of Directors has discussed at length how the sales of 1911s would be handled, if the CMP were to ever receive them from the United States Army.

    Some preliminary decisions further clarified updated 12/12/2017:
    1.CMP will have an all-new 1911 order form, 1911 purchasing instructions, a 1911 page on our web site, a dedicated 1911 FFL fax number and email address for the FFL holder to send their FFL with customer's name attached. The customer will have to send in a complete new order packet with all new qualifying criteria included. Everyone will be a new customer, everyone starts with no advantage or disadvantage. CMP 1911 is an FFL governed operation and is a separate entity from CMP and has to have its own record keeping operation with no ties to the old CMP records.
    2.Decisions concerning the grade and pricing of the 1911s will not be made until inspection has occurred of a substantial quantity which will take an estimated 150 days post receipt. CMP will price at fair market value in accordance with CMP's enabling legislation.
    3.Potential purchasers will have to provide to CMP a new set of documents exhibiting: 1) proof of U.S. Citizenship, 2) proof of membership in a CMP affiliated club, 3) proof of participation in a marksmanship activity, 4) a new form 2A with notary, 5) a signed copy of the 01, 02, 07 Federal Firearms License in which the 1911 will be transferred to. These are "store front" FFLs.
    4.A NICS background check will be performed by CMP on the customer to assure the customer is eligible to purchase prior to shipment to the "store front" FFL licensed dealer. The customer must receive a "proceed" from NICS prior to shipment of the pistol to the FFL licensed dealer.
    5.The CMP customer will be required to complete a form 4473 in person at the FFL dealers place of business, successfully passing a NICS check, in which the information is provided by the FFL holder to NICS, before the pistol can be transferred. This is a second NICS check performed on the customer.
    6.Qualified CMP customer will only be allowed to purchase one 1911 per calendar year.
    7.No 1911s available in the CMP stores, or on line, only mail order sales. All 1911 orders will come in via USPS, UPS, Fed EX, etc.
    8.CMP will set the date in which it will accept orders for the 1911s. The date will be posted to the world.
    9.Orders will only be accepted via mail order delivery, USPS, UPS, Fed Ex, etc.
    10.Orders will only be accepted post marked on the date or after, no early orders.
    11.Once CMP receives 10,000 orders, customer names will be loaded into the Random Number Generator.
    12.The Random Number Generator will provide a list of names in sequence order through a random picking process to CMP.
    13.Customers will be contacted in the sequence provided by the Random Number Generator.
    14.When the customer is contacted a list of 1911 grades and pricing options that are available will be offered for selection of one 1911 type pistol.
    15.As CMP proceeds down the sequenced list less grades and pricing options will be available.

    Note: 1911 type pistols purchased from CMP cannot be transferred to 03 FFL (curio and relic) license. BATF and the United States Army prefer the second background check be performed by a "store front" FFL dealer. Each customer purchasing a 1911 type pistol from CMP will be subjected to two NICS background checks, one the information provided by CMP to NICS and the second the information will be provided to NICS by the FFL dealer in which the pistol is shipped.

    Ordering Information: CMP will have an all-new 1911 order form, 1911 purchasing instructions, a 1911 page on our web site, a dedicated 1911 FFL fax number and email address for the FFL holder to send their FFL with customer name attached. The customer will have to send in a complete new order packet with all new qualifying criteria included. Everyone will be a new customer, everyone starts with no advantage or disadvantage. CMP 1911 is an FFL governed operation and is a separate entity from CMP and has to have its own record keeping operation with no ties to the old CMP records.

    Concerning sale price of the 1911s: CMP has been selling M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, 1903s, .22s, etc. for 21+ years and we have never taken advantage of anyone. CMP is not going to start price gouging people now with the 1911s. The 1911s will be priced at fair market value just like our M1 Garands. The CMP's enabling legislation directs sales of items at fair market value.

    Mark Johnson

    Chief Operating Officer

    Civilian Marksmanship Program

    www.thecmp.org
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
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  9. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    I was issued the 1911 MEU(SOC) when I was attached to recon. The frames were made in the 40s, and no two were exactly alike. But if I did my part and kept it clean and maintained and turned it over to the armorer when I was supposed to for PM, it was the proverbial Timex: Took a lickin' and kept on tickin'.
     
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  10. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    Kimber prices for Jimbo quality

     
  11. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

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    Concerning sale price of the 1911s: CMP has been selling M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, 1903s, .22s, etc. for 21+ years and we have never taken advantage of anyone. CMP is not going to start price gouging people now with the 1911s. The 1911s will be priced at fair market value just like our M1 Garands. The CMP's enabling legislation directs sales of items at fair market value.

    With the exception of some of the M1 Carbine and M1 Garands that went to auction CMP has always been fair IMHO. It is also my understanding that none of the 1911s will go to auction.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  12. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    The difference is nobody is still making M1s and Carbines like they are the 1911. In fact, there is a GLUT of 1911 manufacturers. And at the 'fair market' price, it's only use is as a collectors item.

    Here is an estimate of what they may cost from that same site as OP posted, 2015 est:

    I would expect CMP 1911 pistols to be about 30-50% less than the current market price. The market price for WWII M1911 pistols is about $1000 – $4000+. $2000 seems to be the going price for Service Grade pistols.

    Based on the market prices, the CMP’s pricing history and the the increase of supply that these pistols will bring to the market, my guesstimate pricing for CMP 1911 pistols are:


    Grade Price
    CMP Rack Grade 1911 Price – *
    CMP Field Grade 1911 Price $750
    CMP Service Grade 1911 Price $850
    CMP Special Grade 1911 Price $1100
    Other ** $1800 +

    I GUARANTEE THOSE ARE EXTREMELY LOWBALL ESTIMATES. But let's play:


    $750 gets me a Ruger Target like mentioned, or a Springfield Range Officer, both of which are excellent US-made guns with first-rate quality manufacturing, long list of standard features that would be major upgrades on a GI 1911, not to mention a factory warranty.

    I just don't see the appeal other than to a collector. Same with $1600 Winchester M1 carbines.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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  13. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    I tend to agree with Ikarus on this one. As much as I would love an old warhorse of a 1911, I just cant see spending more than $500-600 on one, especially if they are "well loved".
     
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  14. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    for that money you could get a RIA tactops AND 200rds
     
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  15. Slosolo2

    Slosolo2 Here to be happy

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    Factor the cost of club membership if you don't already belong to a CMP approved club. Not a huge deal but...
     
  16. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    No, I get that, but even as a non-collector I would put the value of an American made "real deal" military 1911 on par with Rocks.
     
  17. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    same machinery IIRC as some WWII era mfgers
     
  18. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Not saying it isn’t, but some people want an American pushing the buttons and not a Filipino. I love me rock, just saying there >is< value in made in America to some people.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    Ask a Filipino, they'll tell you they're Asian Americans with offshore visas. The PR of the Pacific
     
  20. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Doesn’t matter what they think. What matters to many people is the “Made in the USA” stamp.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    The service grade price is cheaper than buying them from auctions or gun shows. If you want one for history, fine, buy it, make sure it's clean, and display it. If you want it for a build, just for the frame and slide, you are looking at an additional few hundred bucks for replacement parts, some of which may be fitted. So....if you want to buy a 1911 to shoot, get a current production.
     
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  22. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Yes....
     
  23. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

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    Those numbers are not based in anything but someones wild ass guess. They are not from the CMP and are being repeated everywhere as if they were fact. They are FAKE NEWS!

    The fact is that CMP has been selling Garands and Carbines for less than one could historically buy the same gun in the open market. Comparing a Ruger to a 1911A1 marked property of the US is a false comparison. Of course it is collectors who are looking to purchase these guns but that does not mean they will not be used or that they will not represent fair market value.

    A Club membership will cost you $25. I completely understand not wanting one but the CMP is not going to gouge people. Their long track record speaks volumes to me. They have a history, outside their auction site, for selling collector grade Garands and M1 Carbines for less than the open market. I am not sure why these 1911s would be different.

    I personally will most likely sit this one out but who knows. The actual grades of the guns and the prices when they are announced by CMP will dictate my choice. I have no desire to own a RIA. It is not the same animal. It does not hold the same sentimental or market value. It might have a more functional value but if I am looking for a "working" 1911 I am not choosing a RIA or a Ruger for that matter.
     
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  24. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

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    I believe that is a internet myth. I have seen it asked and repeated many times but I have never seen any proof that it is true. If you have definative proof of the statement I would love to see it. Also even is the machinery were the same the process that is used to make RIA is not the same as the Colt. Colt does not used extruded steel forgings, RIA does. They also use a lot of MIM parts IIRC slide stop, plunger tube, disconnector, ejector & sear are all MIM. Frame is also cast. They are decent entry level 1911s but the idea that a MIM filled CNC machined 1911 with a cast frame is the same as a US Govt Property marked Colt 1911A1 is a false comparison.

    In the end we do not know what CMP is going to get if they ever actually ever get them. I am in the most will be beater camp but we don't know. Even CMP doesn't know. I have already satisfied my shooting 1911A1 with this Argentine Sistema Colt which ironically was actually made on Colt Tooling.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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  25. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    You know other manufacturers made the WW2 era M1911A1 besides Colt right?

    Nothing you just said made a worn US property marked gun shoot better than a modern one. Thus 'collectors'
     
  26. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

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    If it runs better than a Kimber or RIA than its a better shooter... LMAO. Not all new 1911s run right out of the box no matter who the manufacturer is.

    If it functions its a shooter. It is my understanding that all the guns that will be sold by CMP will be functional. Better shooter in what way? My Sistema runs 100%. It is able to group as well as any of my other 1911s if I do my part. I guess we should define "better shooter" If you shoot SASS Cowboy shoots I would bet that the CMP gun will be a "better shooter" for you than a modern RIA. That is a narrow example but sort of illustrates that "better shooter" is subjective.

    Yes of course more people than Colt made the 1911 but unlike RIA they all made them to the contract spec. Did the other contractor use MIM parts? CNC machining? Everything I said in that statement applies to the other contractors. Replace Colt with, WWII contractor of your choice, and the truth value of the statements is the same.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  27. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    Things that make a 1911 a better shooter : better sights, better ergos, tighter slide to frame to bushing fit.

    Full disclosure: I have a Springfield Mil Spec from 1994, and a Ruger SR1911A. The Mil Spec has a custom trigger, forged IMBEL frame, quality NON MIM parts.
    I've shot Colts, STIs, all manner of Springfields over the years.

    The Ruger is hands down the better shooter.

    The OP put forth an article that claimed that the CMP would be able to offer 'shooter-grade' offerings at market prices. I will have to see the miracle that the Post Office of Guns will magically perform.
     
  28. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    I think the key term is "market price". To you, and me honestly, they aren't worth all that much because we aren't wealthy or collectors of 1911s. But I guaranty that if they put them out for 1,000 they will be sold out before you can say John Browning. Are they worth that? To someone, yes.
     
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  29. DLam

    DLam Happy to be here

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    for a working 1911, an RIA is a great option... as are the springfields, and my colt combat commander....

    your point is well served... I want one that is stamped United States Property. Cheapest I have seen on open market is $1200 for mismatched worn out pistol. I too believe that the CMP will be fair in their pricing. I look forward to seeing what they offer.
     
  30. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

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    OK I believe that the CMP is mandated by law to sell these guns at "market price" and all guns will be functional and tested prior to sale just like the Garands. I am not sure that CMP isthe Post Office of Guns. I have ordered from them in the past and it went smoothly and I was satisfied with what I got.

    Ruger makes a decent gun. I am not disputing that it just would not be my choice. The Rugers I have shoot were good production 1911s but did not stand out for me in anyway. I was into 1911s at one point but have thinned that herd. I am in line to send a gun to Don Williams of The Action Works next year if I could get a good frame and slide combo with US property marks for a fair price I would consider using it as a base gun for that custom build but most likely I will just use a Colt 80 series I bought NIB for $500 after rebate a few years ago.

    I understand people not wanting one of these pistols but I guess I don't understand the believe that they will not be functional and that CMP is going to rip people off by selling at inflated prices.

    PS slide to frame fit only accounts for a very small % of a 1911s accuracy. IIRC less than 10% according to Kuhnhausen. Barrel fit to the slide, barrel to frame and then bushing to barrel are more important for accuracy than slide to frame fit. For most shooters slide to frame fit will make no difference in real world targets.
     
  31. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this but we really have no idea what they will be priced at. Lots of speculation but ZERO actual pricing from CMP. The chart which was posted earlier in this thread was posted over on TFL from a super secret insider to be named later and traded for a ham sandwich. There is no verified confirmation that those prices have any relation to reality.
     
  32. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    You still fail to account for market price of WW2 vintage guns. 2 grand and up.

    CMP was selling Garands before they were collectors items. No way to turn back time on the wartime 1911s. So the market will set the CMP price instead of vice versa

    If I was going to build a 2 thousand dollar 1911 I sure as hell wouldnt use a collector gun. Caspian makes forged frames every day.
     
  33. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

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    You and I see collector guns differently. I don't own collector guns. I own many vintage guns but if they are in my possession I am going to use them. I have a few custom guns on platforms others would consider a collector gun, for example a BHP T series.

    Collector value is bullshit because unless you are going to sell the gun you are never going to get that "value". If I am not going to sell it it has no collector value until I die and then I don't give a rats ass what it sells for because I am worm food.

    Again you are assuming what they will be and what they will sell at. Used WW2 1911s sell for a wide range of prices depending on exactly what it is. We will have to wait and see whayt they actually have. Mix master rearsenaled guns with worn finishes do not sell for $2,000.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  34. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    Better tell the flippers that before they inundate CMP with orders

    http://www.gunbroker.com/item/726031973

    http://www.gunbroker.com/item/727867754
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  35. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

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    7 day auction with 1 day left ZERO BIDS. The real market is what these kinds of guns sell at not what they get listed at.

    The other one also has no bids.

    This one sold at $1125. I am not saying that they are going to be cheap but I don't think that they will be $2,000 unless they are collector grade which by CMP definitions is as it left the factory parts wise showing minimal wear.

    http://www.gunbroker.com/item/716550577

    It will be hard for the flippers to make a profit considering you can only buy 1 a year and only 8,000 to 10,000 will be sold a year until the supply is exhausted. Sure some will be flipped but I think it will be the exception not the rule.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  36. cubrock

    cubrock Swell guy Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I am sure CMP will do with these 1911s what they already do with Garands. They’ll be rebuilt/parts swapped into the most correct/highest grade condition they can reasonably get and priced accordingly. My semi-educated guess is that pricing is going to start around $1,000 for a mixmaster shooter grade gun with lots of post-WW2 parts and go up from there. If they have some guns that are close to correct grade, I bet they will be $2000 and up - way up for really good ones, like a mostly correct US&S, etc.

    I’m on the fence as to whether I’ll play or not. I already have all the 1911s of various flavors that I really want. Might be fun to have one with a CMP certificate.
     
  37. cubrock

    cubrock Swell guy Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    One other thing. One sleeper market I see awakening by these guns is “correct” 1911A1s for the Vietnam era (rebuilds with Nam era replacement parts). Such guns are not all that common today. Having the CMP certificate for such a gun will make them more desirable as Vietnam era collecting continues to grow.
     
  38. beamernc

    beamernc LTC - Liberal Tear Collector Charter Member Supporting Member

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    I plan to get one if I can afford it. It will go nicely with my WWI Remington UMC 1911, G Date Luger, Inland M1 Carbine and the Springfield and H&R Garands.

    If someone does not want to try to get one, then why worry about price and condition?
     
  39. Friday

    Friday Polite-Knock raid Charter Member Supporting Member

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    That would be me. Y'all can have my share.
    This is the best time I've ever seen to be a gun buyer. I'm focused on new guns for the cheap versus the other way around.
     
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  40. Gator

    Gator Parts guy Charter Member

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