CD I'm too old to do Force on Force. I'm a young thug's wort nightmare. Too old to run or fight.
How can we learn to shoot like Jack Wilson?
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Apex Defense Group
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My understanding was he used a DA/SA P229 in 357 Sig.
DA/SA . They are used by a lot of Highway Patrol departments because of their performance penertating car windshields. The VA State Police carried them for years when I lived there. Saw a lot of them during traffic stops for speeding.
@Jayne and I were doing the very same thing at my place the other day.
Most are DA/SA that i have seen. They are considered more "concealable"than the P226. Although they are not that much smaller. I have both.
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Chuckman
Senior Member
A couple of quick thoughts FYI: Ernest Langdon is teaching a course in Franklinville this October that includes some movement drills, where both shooter and target are moving (plus, obviously, a lot of other stuff. It's Ernest Langdon). Also, Apex is having their two day Active Shooter class in March. I haven't taken that class yet, and once again I can't make it for the March version. So I can't testify much about the content, but I'm pretty sure they'll have you do a fair bit of work on shooting in crowds and such, and I think it includes force on force stuff in that context.
As far as what I'm trying to do to increase my ability to shoot like Jack Wilson: from what I've read in various places, like Dave Grossman's book On Combat, the best way to prepare yourself for the stress of combat--as well as you can, which of course isn't necessarily all that well, but beats nothing--is to do simunitions based force on force. I've done airsoft based force on force a couple of times, and I'm planning to do I think maybe four more days of it this winter and spring, but never simunitions. I'd like to change that. They were doing sims at Forcetec in Cleveland last summer, but when I wrote to inquire about it in early September I didn't get a reply. I'm not sure whether the facility is still open. Also, people say that shooting in competitions can do some degree of stress inoculation for you. I'm going to try to step up my competitive shooting this year. Also, I'm planning to finally make it to the simulator at the Sportsmans Lodge.
I've started making sure to actually practice 15 yard head shots, too. I did I think just about 6 of them at the end of practice last week. Fired a good group, but they were shot slow fire with no timer. Now I need to start practicing to a time standard. I'll try to add movement someday. I'm not there yet.
These guys were in Raleigh teaching this class earlier this year. https://strategosintl.com/event/tactics-and-firearms-handling-4-hours-ocala-fl-2/ No disrespect to the people in the Texas church intended, but it looks like most of them could really have used a class like this. I'm keeping my eye on Strategos's schedule to see if they'll offer anything I can get to.
I've got a long training list for this coming year!
Unless one actually has someone shooting at you, you never know how you are going to react. FOF is great, but there is more (as Grossman explained). There will be a huge adrenaline dump and your hormones are going to shit the bed. When you practice, practice under real physiologic stress: Do a dozen burpees or 25 push ups, run a lap or two. Get the heart rate up, get sweaty, breathe hard.
Of course there's more. That's why I said he calls it the best way, rather than saying he calls it the only way.
I'm not super sold on exercise as a simulation of stress. Not that I think it's a bad idea to do what you mentioned. I think it's a great idea. It can certainly give you experience shooting while you're breathing really hard and can give you a chance to practice your "combat breathing" and such. And that's excellent. But being worked up from exercise is a very different thing from being worked up from adrenaline--most centrally, you won't get the shakes from exercise. This is why Grossman specifies simunitions based force on force. The sims evidently hurt enough that people actually do get some adrenaline dump during the scenarios because of fear of being hit. It's not a full size adrenaline dump like you'd get in a real life or death fight, I expect, which is why he talks about it as stress inoculation--you don't get a full size dose of anything when you're being inoculated.
Big game hunting seems to me like another good way to do a little shooting under stress. I had a good fit of buck fever this year during bow season when a very big buck walked up to about twelve yards away. He just had to take two more steps to give me a good shot, but the wind shifted and he ran off. I sat there doing combat breathing and trying to hold it together for what seemed like forever while he came towards me through the brush. Could I have handled the shakes and made a good shot? Yes, I believe I could have. I've done it before. This is also why people recommend competition shooting. There's a youtube video out there somewhere of Ernest Langdon telling a story about Jim Cirillo going to the line in a competition and getting the shakes, and Cirillo said later than he was never as nervous as that in any of his actual gunfights.
I'm not super sold on exercise as a simulation of stress. Not that I think it's a bad idea to do what you mentioned. I think it's a great idea. It can certainly give you experience shooting while you're breathing really hard and can give you a chance to practice your "combat breathing" and such. And that's excellent. But being worked up from exercise is a very different thing from being worked up from adrenaline--most centrally, you won't get the shakes from exercise. This is why Grossman specifies simunitions based force on force. The sims evidently hurt enough that people actually do get some adrenaline dump during the scenarios because of fear of being hit. It's not a full size adrenaline dump like you'd get in a real life or death fight, I expect, which is why he talks about it as stress inoculation--you don't get a full size dose of anything when you're being inoculated.
Big game hunting seems to me like another good way to do a little shooting under stress. I had a good fit of buck fever this year during bow season when a very big buck walked up to about twelve yards away. He just had to take two more steps to give me a good shot, but the wind shifted and he ran off. I sat there doing combat breathing and trying to hold it together for what seemed like forever while he came towards me through the brush. Could I have handled the shakes and made a good shot? Yes, I believe I could have. I've done it before. This is also why people recommend competition shooting. There's a youtube video out there somewhere of Ernest Langdon telling a story about Jim Cirillo going to the line in a competition and getting the shakes, and Cirillo said later than he was never as nervous as that in any of his actual gunfights.
We are actually hosting Earnest for that course in October! Really looking forward to it. Anyone who might be interested in more info, please check out our special events page: https://www.fortitudeconsulting.org/events
I don’t know, his was chambered in 357 Sig, my 40S&W P229 is Da/SA.
@BatteryOaksBilly When you are doing this exercise is your finger on the trigger or are you moving the finger from the side of the slide onto the trigger face when the timer goes off?
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I’ve done this drill in a class. Finger on the trigger, and trigger staged (if it isn’t a 1911, or other single action, then just finger on the trigger as if you are getting ready to blast).
This will produce the rawest of raw reaction times.
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Been doing this here for over 10 years, it is usually an eye opener.....The first couple of times are the truest and purest, after that folks start to try to anticipate and "cheat" to improve. Sadly this won't help when you go back to the timer for work.
Yep finger On the go button, slack taken up. First time eyes open second time eyes closed.
Billy i did this in .05 seconds! Just ask Ryan at Apex... He scoffed and said it was a fluke and several guys in class poo poo'd it, but the little blue box never lies ! I am counting it darn it. Who care if it is not repeatable. I captured lightening in a bottle.
I am counting it darn it. Who care if it is not repeatable. I captured lightening in a bottle.
You show em Pard!!!! Best here is .17...…………………………..All are amazed when they close their eyes...Billy i did this in .05 seconds! Just ask Ryan at Apex... He scoffed and said it was a fluke and several guys in class poo poo'd it, but the little blue box never lies !
Cowboy Fast Draw gives you a good idea of how fast you can react and shoot. My best has been just under 0.60 seconds. Some of the really good shooters get down on the 0.30 seconds range. It would be interesting to do one round with the revolvers already out, cocked, and aimed at the targets.
I have never been in a situation in which someone was shooting at me and I hope I never will. I have, however, had to shoot my way out of three packs of feral dogs that wanted to eat me. I have been charged by a wild boar that was decidedly unfriendly. I have had several very close encounters with bears that I eventually did not have to shoot. I have shot many rats and snakes while working with a tractor. I have hunted numerous small and large game animals over the last 60+ years. I have done my fair share of shooting in a variety of very different situations. I am certainly not the best shot around but can generally hold my own fairly well.
It seems that frequently the quick shots I have had to take were better than the shots for which I had time to prepare and think about what I was going to do. I suppose the quick surprise shots did not give me time to get nervous and over think the upcoming shot.
I just wonder whether in a stressful situation your brain, educated by thousands of rounds down range at a large variety of different targets, just takes over and does what it knows it has to do. If so, can you really effectively prepare for a particular scenerio? Would shooting a lot at a large variety of different targets be about as effective for showing your brain what it is capable of doing as trying to train for one specific situation?
I have never been in a situation in which someone was shooting at me and I hope I never will. I have, however, had to shoot my way out of three packs of feral dogs that wanted to eat me. I have been charged by a wild boar that was decidedly unfriendly. I have had several very close encounters with bears that I eventually did not have to shoot. I have shot many rats and snakes while working with a tractor. I have hunted numerous small and large game animals over the last 60+ years. I have done my fair share of shooting in a variety of very different situations. I am certainly not the best shot around but can generally hold my own fairly well.
It seems that frequently the quick shots I have had to take were better than the shots for which I had time to prepare and think about what I was going to do. I suppose the quick surprise shots did not give me time to get nervous and over think the upcoming shot.
I just wonder whether in a stressful situation your brain, educated by thousands of rounds down range at a large variety of different targets, just takes over and does what it knows it has to do. If so, can you really effectively prepare for a particular scenerio? Would shooting a lot at a large variety of different targets be about as effective for showing your brain what it is capable of doing as trying to train for one specific situation?
Muscle Memory.... It is the same shooting a basketball, hitting a golf ball, boxing or shooting a gun. If you have enough "good" repetitions your body instinctively knows what to do. Its like being "in the zone" in sports. It is not a conciseness thing. I personally think training for the most likely scenario is best but you also need to train outside of the box to some extent.
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