Hybrid and EV

Geezer

Geezer

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I drove a hybrid Toyota RAV4 this week. At slower speeds, the electric did the power and was quite peppy. At faster highway speeds, the gas engine took over and it was like any other RAV4. To me, the hybrid makes much more sense than an EV.

Yesterday, I drove a new Ford Lightning. It seemed just like any other F-150, just very quiet. But, get it straight in the road and stomp it, it moves! I was expecting the immediate torque but, I was surprised at how it would set you back in the seat. When I got in it, it showed that it was at 85% charge and had a range of 328 miles. Once I got through with the stomping on the "gas" pedal, it was just like the rest of the F-150s I drive, just quieter.

The dealership doesn't have any public charging stations but, this past Monday they poured a new slab at the entrance and are installing a couple of charging stations.
 
I've owned three hybrids and was pleased with all of them. Great combination of practicality and fuel efficiency.

Re charging systems, to me it makes sense to install them in locations where folks routinely go. Grocery stores, home improvement centers, Walmart, Target, etc. Charge while you shop.
 
Geezer said:
To me, the hybrid makes much more sense than an EV.
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I agree. There are a lot of reasons I think completely electric vehicles are A bad choice. Not the least of which is they still pollute, just at the power plant instead of the tailpipe. While they may have their place in certain applications and environments , they’re really not a practical replacement for a regular vehicle. Now a hybrid, which is a way of improving fuel efficiency and reducing pollution in more congested places makes sense.
Geezer said:
When I got in it, it showed that it was at 85% charge and had a range of 328 miles. Once I got through with the stomping on the "gas" pedal, it was just like the rest of the F-150s I drive, just quieter.
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What was the battery and range after stomping on it?
 
I don't really understand the love for hybrids. It seems like the worst of both worlds. All of the maintenance on an ICE plus the eventual costly replacement of a bad battery.

I would only own an EV as being part of a 2 vehicle family, and I would want my home charging setup to be bidirectional so my home could be powered by the car for short power outages.
 
I wouldn’t be able hook my big boat to the new electric f 150 and make my round trip to the lake. About an hour each way with traffic. It is absolutely usless to me. Nor can I drive up a see my mom in nc mountains and back without finding a charger and being stuck hooked up for an hour or more.

I will stick to a gasser.
 
Ferrisfan said:
I don't really understand the love for hybrids. It seems like the worst of both worlds. All of the maintenance on an ICE plus the eventual costly replacement of a bad battery.

I would only own an EV as being part of a 2 vehicle family, and I would want my home charging setup to be bidirectional so my home could be powered by the car for short power outages.
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They hybrids do have more complexity, but can significantly improve performance (low end torque in particular) and fuel economy. And at least as the batteries degrade, they don't lose much if any usable range in contrast to the EVs.
 
I think EVs are truly the future. It's only a matter of time before cheap hybrid or even EV kits come out.
I had a hybrid prius that I bought for a few K (precovid) that I drove the wheels off. It only died because the Raleigh Catalytic Converter theft ring found it. Currently on my second but it gets garage kept.
I'm pretty sour after my first Ford interaction. The Pro model (base) with no options was $39k and you'd qualify for a 7k EV rebate. So 35k out the door for a base model, full sized EV F150. Truly a steal. When they opened the F150 Lightning orders, I was number 5 at capital Ford for a Lightning but due to demand, every dealership only got 1-2 a year. Right at the 2.5 year mark I got the notification. But Ford isn't offering the base or next up tier. Just the top two, which start at 85k. Pass. They called me a few weeks ago and let me know they are taking Pro (the base model) orders, it's just +10k then when I reserved it. Come to find out, you're just reserving your spot and not the cost.
 
I would consider a hybrid. But I can't make it to the beach and back on an EV and the only charging station at Atlantic beach is at a hotel and you have to be a guest to use it. (Last time I checked)You know some jackass is going to leave his car there and you won't be able to use it. Deal breaker, aside from cost.

I read an article the other day, the reason Toyotas have gotten so expensive is to offset the loss of revenue for each EV sold. I don't know if that is true but makes sense.
 
If I had someone to put it together for me, I want a battery vehicle with a small onboard gas generator that will basically just fire up and provide enough power to keep going when the batteries get low. Fixes the range issue and not nearly as fussy as a whole gas drive train. Plus you can run it at optimum rpm etc for better mpg since it's just feeding into the power system.

Or you know, one of those nuclear fuel cells we could build if the NRA weren't such negative nancies.
 
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Plug in hybrids seem like the best transition period vehicle until the EV infrastructure is better built. I don't see them as along term solution. I'm hoping the move towards EV/plug in hybrid encouraging pressure to get our electrical grid out of the 1950s. I'm always impressed by the instant torque on EVs, especially for how relatively inexpensive they've gotten. Now if only people would figure out how to use that to get on the highway at more than 45 MPH...

noway2 said:
There are a lot of reasons I think completely electric vehicles are A bad choice. Not the least of which is they still pollute, just at the power plant instead of the tailpipe.
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It's a lot easier to control pollution at a single point source than it is across millions of vehicles of various ages of technology. Plus you can update that single point for a lot cheaper than trying to get an entire nation's worth of cars updated.

NCLivingBrit said:
If I had someone to put it together for me, I want a battery vehicle with a small onboard gas generator that will basically just fire up and provide enough power to keep going when the batteries get low.
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Welcome to the Chevy Volt (depending on the mode). One of my friends has one and it's weird hearing the motor cranking at the same RPM while it's stopped as it does when it's moving.

One weird issue with EVs and Hybrids is the regenerative braking working well enough that you can end up not using your traditional brakes. My friend's Volt has this situation and his rotors end up covered in rust and his caliper pads rusted in place since they never moved for a year. The pads looked almost new but the pad backer was just a sheet of rust.
 
some_kid6 said:
Plug in hybrids seem like the best transition period vehicle until the EV infrastructure is better built. I don't see them as along term solution. I'm hoping the move towards EV/plug in hybrid encouraging pressure to get our electrical grid out of the 1950s
Click to expand...
One of the things that makes me want to pull my face off on this subject is the way these vehicles are being forced upon us with lies, including calling them "emission free", and claiming they're "green" while the batteries are anything but and largely dependent upon China.

This is a post I made elsewhere in response to an article about consumer demand for the electric cars tanking:

OK, I am a (car) consumer. Maybe my views are more extreme than average, but here’s a list. How many boxes get checked off by the typical consumer:
1) these things are being pushed by a political party and demographic that I DESPISE.
2) I see through the BS of calling them emissions free, which is just an affront
3) they’re more expensive, a lot more.
4) the battery technology is environmentally piss poor and bolsters China
5) they’re expensive to repair post collision, something that hasn’t been factored into costs yet
6) you’ll soon get hit with a mileage tax because you're no longer paying “your fair share” to maintain roads
7) the whole charging, planning, and time factor is an inconvenience and could be crippling
8) several stories of batteries catching on fire
9) range limitations
10) the battery is good for maybe 100,000 miles and then you face a major expense
11) towing and hauling capacity both suck and doing either greatly reduces the range
 
noway2 said:
One of the things that makes me want to pull my face off on this subject is the way these vehicles are being forced upon us with lies, including calling them "emission free", and claiming they're "green" while the batteries are anything but and largely dependent upon China.

This is a post I made elsewhere in response to an article about consumer demand for the electric cars tanking:

OK, I am a (car) consumer. Maybe my views are more extreme than average, but here’s a list. How many boxes get checked off by the typical consumer:
1) these things are being pushed by a political party and demographic that I DESPISE.
2) I see through the BS of calling them emissions free, which is just an affront
3) they’re more expensive, a lot more.
4) the battery technology is environmentally piss poor and bolsters China
5) they’re expensive to repair post collision, something that hasn’t been factored into costs yet
6) you’ll soon get hit with a mileage tax because you're no longer paying “your fair share” to maintain roads
7) the whole charging, planning, and time factor is an inconvenience and could be crippling
8) several stories of batteries catching on fire
9) range limitations
10) the battery is good for maybe 100,000 miles and then you face a major expense
11) towing and hauling capacity both suck and doing either greatly reduces the range
Click to expand...

I don't think full EVs are quite ready yet for mass usage but they're hardly non-starters. All of these listed issues are solvable but it takes time. A lot of that list also applies to gas cars too. There's some legitimate issues with the current generation of EVs (like excessive weight and poor cold weather endurance) but I don't think this list of reasons are it.

Here's my reasoning based on those points:

1) Why would you care what some gov rat thinks about something? That's not very capitalistic of you. I personally don't base my financial decisions on what other people think.
2) Doesn't make them not useful for making our transportation network more resilient and less reliant on the affairs in the middle east. If you're upset by salesmen telling half truths to you then I don't know how you buy anything ever
3) You can get a full EV, brand new 2023 Chevy Bolt for 27k or a hybrid Maverick for 26k. That's a steal considering the tech is relatively recent compared to a gas car (that's had over 100 years of competition). We also don't have to completely replace gas cars so the low end can still stick around. Like how we have trash flip phones still available even though 900$ smart phones exist. The tech has also been drastically decreasing in cost now that there's competition (as all tech does)
4) It ends up being a slightly lower environmental cost as a traditional car over the lifetime of the vehicles with the exception of being able to recycle almost all of the battery in the future. It also creates jobs in the US since we make our own batteries and just import the raw materials (which have an extremely high ability to be recycled, even with current tech)
5) That's any car. I don't really see how you could consider that a normal cost consideration. Do you get in a lot of car accidents or something? If you get in an accident big enough to scrap the wheel motors then you'd be replacing axles and doing frame repair/totaling it regardless. If you trash an all EV battery then your frame is toast (just like it would be in a gas car) since they're all under the frame.
6) You already get hit with a tax on gas in NC. A mileage tax is not any different than a gas car.
7) This basically boils down to "it's not perfect in it's infancy and therefore can't ever work". Just look at how fast superchargers have spread across the nation in the past 10 years. It's basically no different from how gas cars started. It's not like there were gas stations all over the place until cars started becoming mass produced and affordable. Had to plan your trip around going to the local drug store for a can of gas and hoping the next town store carried it too.
8) Just wait till you hear about gas cars catching fire
9) Work in progress, consider tools based on need
10) Testla battery is rated for 300k-500k miles. They stop the warranty at 8 yrs / 100k miles just like every gas car ever. Lower lifespans will depend on how you treat it (just like with a gas car). I bet replacing a clutch, transmission, oil, gaskets, plugs, ect also costs quite a lot of money depending on your environment and how you run the car. This lifespan will improve over time as the tech improves too.
11) Use the right tool for the job. I wouldn't use a gas car for towing and hauling either (which also has it's range greatly reduced). It's good to have a diverse toolbox to accomplish tasks.
 
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Until the car wreck last week we had prius for 11 years. We went from Texas, Kansas, Colorado, Oklahoma, RI, Florida, and in between with it. Usually averaged a tad more than the sticker indicated. Usually around 50-56 mpg. At 128,000 miles the hybrid battery showed 87% health. I was shocked it was still that high. So about 200k to replacement I am guessing. We will be getting another Toyota Hybrid for the next car Without a doubt.

I set up the computer to monitor our gas savings from our former Honda Accord. We saved one third of our car purchase price in gas. The Prius Plugin Hybrid seems to be the very best option on the market. Best of every world- plugin electric, fuel, and hybrid gas sipping.
 
6) you’ll soon get hit with a mileage tax because you're no longer paying “your fair share” to maintain roads
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There is already an EV fee associated with not using gas in NC. It is currently $214.38/year. That is roughly the equivalent to the gas tax on 12k miles driven in a vehicle that gets 23 mpg (530 gal of fuel) rounded however weird way they round things.

In SC, I think it is a flat $120 additional fee at time of registration renewal.
 
I have the Ford hybrid truck.
I works well for me
Below 40 mph-ish in town the battery does a lot of the work. On highway running 80 mph, it’s all the ICE.
It will tow everything I own- camper, tractor on trailer, SXS on trailer- yes the mpg drops but vs the number of times I am towing, I still come out ahead $ wise
I LOVE the 7.2 kw genny built into truck- powers everything- cabin, tools, larger hammer dildo… wait???
My average mpg- not just Hwy babying it- is 22 mpg. Really if I drive in town it’s higher

Now if I was pulling a large trailer every day- I would go a different way
 
4) It ends up being a slightly lower environmental cost as a traditional car over the lifetime of the vehicles with the exception of being able to recycle almost all of the battery in the future. It also creates jobs in the US since we make our own batteries and just import the raw materials (which have an extremely high ability to be recycled, even with current tech
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There are so many variables here depending on the electricity grid fuel source, but the current "rule of thumb" estimate is that an EV is "lifetime cleaner" after 50k miles. That doesn't include any impact from regular maintenance (no oil changes/transmission fluid/different coolants), just the manufacturing and fueling impacts.
 
BlackGun said:
Until the car wreck last week we had prius for 11 years. We went from Texas, Kansas, Colorado, Oklahoma, RI, Florida, and in between with it. Usually averaged a tad more than the sticker indicated. Usually around 50-56 mpg. At 128,000 miles the hybrid battery showed 87% health. I was shocked it was still that high. So about 200k to replacement I am guessing. We will be getting another Toyota Hybrid for the next car Without a doubt.

I set up the computer to monitor our gas savings from our former Honda Accord. We saved one third of our car purchase price in gas. The Prius Plugin Hybrid seems to be the very best option on the market. Best of every world- plugin electric, fuel, and hybrid gas sipping.
Click to expand...

Buddy had on and put 200k on it, iirc battery was still good.

Still gay though 😆
 
We bought a Prius new in 2008, and gave it to my Mother in Law in 2013. She still drives it (and it still has the original hybrid battery)
 
I’ll add the Prius Plugin gets about 44 miles Before the hybrid kicks in. Yes that is low but for a city dweller that could be daily commute. Personally I doubt I would plug my Prius in daily to use that function plus it is a couple thousand more dollars above a regular hybrid.

Right now we are looking more towards the Toyota Corolla Cross which like a small SUV, a bit smaller than a Rav4. The engine is 196 hp. Much more hp than current Corolla which is more than enough for me. If I need hp I’ll just jump in my diesel guzzling Cummins Dodge truck at 16mpg and $4.20 a gallon. It’s slow as hell too.
 
I've got a F150 Powerboost as well. I tow a racecar all over the southeast, so an EV was never an option. Other than occasionally clunky transitions between electric and combustion, and some odd rev hang when giving it the beans, I love it - except for the headlights... the halogens on the XL are hot garbage.
Poverty spec XL, supercrew with 6.5 bed, 7.2kw "generator" and max tow package. Gets 20-25mpg around town or highway, towing a 6k open car hauler I get about 15mpg @75mph. 570lb-ft of torque doesn't hurt either.
 
flip said:
I've got a F150 Powerboost as well. I tow a racecar all over the southeast, so an EV was never an option. Other than occasionally clunky transitions between electric and combustion, and some odd rev hang when giving it the beans, I love it - except for the headlights... the halogens on the XL are hot garbage.
Poverty spec XL, supercrew with 6.5 bed, 7.2kw "generator" and max tow package. Gets 20-25mpg around town or highway, towing a 6k open car hauler I get about 15mpg @75mph. 570lb-ft of torque doesn't hurt either.
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I drive a couple at work. I like them, I'd consider buying one. However the transitions are clunky, often, they have mass torque but frequently a ton of lag, rather unpleasant when you try to jump into traffic and nothing really happens for long enough to second guess that gap. 2-5 mile town trip mileage is great 27mpg, under 2 it's frequently single digits. Highway is low twenties. Every annoyance is worse when it's cold. Really enjoy turning the key, ready light on, drop in drive press the accelerator, nothing, engine cranks spins up dumps it in gear at 2k+. Seems like there's some programming that needs refinement.
 
Totally agree on the transmission programming needing refinement. But the PB seems to be Ford's bastard child compared to the Lightning - so I'm not holding my breath.
As far as the lag - I'd agree in "normal" or eco mode, but in sport it's relatively tight... for a truck. I'd also whine about body roll and dive, but.. it's a work truck, and it's pretty comfy - so I can't really fault Ford. I'll probably upgrade the dampers to Billy 5100s in the next year or so.
 
NCLivingBrit said:
If I had someone to put it together for me, I want a battery vehicle with a small onboard gas generator that will basically just fire up and provide enough power to keep going when the batteries get low. Fixes the range issue and not nearly as fussy as a whole gas drive train. Plus you can run it at optimum rpm etc for better mpg since it's just feeding into the power system.
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Have I got the car for you:
Presenting the Hammerhead Eagle iThrust

 
I really enjoy my ev.

Our family also has ICE vehicles so I’m less worried about any of the negatives. Chevy paid for a 220 install in my garage and I charge almost totally at work for free. So far I’m saving around 300$ a month in fuel from commuting my truck before. I like my combo of an ev small car and an older ice pickup for working/whatever
 
BASIL said:
" I charge almost totally at work for free."

Nothing is free, someone is paying for it.
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Lol a bit pedantic imo but sure whatever. My fuel cost is radically lower than last year.

Fwiw it’s already way lower charging entirely at home, even if I didn’t get a work perk.

I don’t think they are for everyone but I like mine and it works well so far.
 
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noway2 said:
One of the things that makes me want to pull my face off on this subject is the way these vehicles are being forced upon us with lies, including calling them "emission free", and claiming they're "green" while the batteries are anything but and largely dependent upon China.

This is a post I made elsewhere in response to an article about consumer demand for the electric cars tanking:

OK, I am a (car) consumer. Maybe my views are more extreme than average, but here’s a list. How many boxes get checked off by the typical consumer:
1) these things are being pushed by a political party and demographic that I DESPISE.
2) I see through the BS of calling them emissions free, which is just an affront
3) they’re more expensive, a lot more.
4) the battery technology is environmentally piss poor and bolsters China
5) they’re expensive to repair post collision, something that hasn’t been factored into costs yet
6) you’ll soon get hit with a mileage tax because you're no longer paying “your fair share” to maintain roads
7) the whole charging, planning, and time factor is an inconvenience and could be crippling
8) several stories of batteries catching on fire
9) range limitations
10) the battery is good for maybe 100,000 miles and then you face a major expense
11) towing and hauling capacity both suck and doing either greatly reduces the range
Click to expand...
Good, bad, or otherwise I'm pretty much in agreement with everything said. I would possibly consider a hybrid, but that's it.

Without going into too much detail that would out me, my employer, or specific names, my job (very) occasionally takes me into the edges of circles of very high ranking local and State officials, elected and/or appointed during meetings and events, and I overheard a VERY high ranking State official that was pushing "the party line" of EVs being the future :rolleyes:and asking a local official why they haven't installed more charging stations locally. The local official told the high ranking State official they wanted to but the cost of $65,000 each made it very difficult. The State official, who was pushing the party position on EVs to begin with was SHOCKED that they cost that much (and I believe the shock WAS genuine) showing how much research they had actually done, other than just to push the narrative, heck or high water.
 
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some_kid6 said:
I don't think full EVs are quite ready yet for mass usage but they're hardly non-starters. All of these listed issues are solvable but it takes time. A lot of that list also applies to gas cars too. There's some legitimate issues with the current generation of EVs (like excessive weight and poor cold weather endurance) but I don't think this list of reasons are it.

Here's my reasoning based on those points:

1) Why would you care what some gov rat thinks about something? That's not very capitalistic of you. I personally don't base my financial decisions on what other people think.
2) Doesn't make them not useful for making our transportation network more resilient and less reliant on the affairs in the middle east. If you're upset by salesmen telling half truths to you then I don't know how you buy anything ever
3) You can get a full EV, brand new 2023 Chevy Bolt for 27k or a hybrid Maverick for 26k. That's a steal considering the tech is relatively recent compared to a gas car (that's had over 100 years of competition). We also don't have to completely replace gas cars so the low end can still stick around. Like how we have trash flip phones still available even though 900$ smart phones exist. The tech has also been drastically decreasing in cost now that there's competition (as all tech does)
4) It ends up being a slightly lower environmental cost as a traditional car over the lifetime of the vehicles with the exception of being able to recycle almost all of the battery in the future. It also creates jobs in the US since we make our own batteries and just import the raw materials (which have an extremely high ability to be recycled, even with current tech)
5) That's any car. I don't really see how you could consider that a normal cost consideration. Do you get in a lot of car accidents or something? If you get in an accident big enough to scrap the wheel motors then you'd be replacing axles and doing frame repair/totaling it regardless. If you trash an all EV battery then your frame is toast (just like it would be in a gas car) since they're all under the frame.
6) You already get hit with a tax on gas in NC. A mileage tax is not any different than a gas car.
7) This basically boils down to "it's not perfect in it's infancy and therefore can't ever work". Just look at how fast superchargers have spread across the nation in the past 10 years. It's basically no different from how gas cars started. It's not like there were gas stations all over the place until cars started becoming mass produced and affordable. Had to plan your trip around going to the local drug store for a can of gas and hoping the next town store carried it too.
8) Just wait till you hear about gas cars catching fire
9) Work in progress, consider tools based on need
10) Testla battery is rated for 300k-500k miles. They stop the warranty at 8 yrs / 100k miles just like every gas car ever. Lower lifespans will depend on how you treat it (just like with a gas car). I bet replacing a clutch, transmission, oil, gaskets, plugs, ect also costs quite a lot of money depending on your environment and how you run the car. This lifespan will improve over time as the tech improves too.
11) Use the right tool for the job. I wouldn't use a gas car for towing and hauling either (which also has it's range greatly reduced). It's good to have a diverse toolbox to accomplish tasks.
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Wow, someone who gets it. Spot on Sir!
 
410279505_752691450225422_8870847739131292715_n.jpg
 
well, the incentive money is for the installation of the charging stations.
currently, there is no incentive money for the maintenance of those stations.
 
turkeydance said:
well, the incentive money is for the installation of the charging stations.
currently, there is no incentive money for the maintenance of those stations.
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Yeah watched an aging wheels video about that, doesn't look very viable right now.
 
I purchased the new Prius back in the spring and absolutely love it. Hybrid is the way to go I don’t think I could ever go full electric.
 
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