I figured out how to draw from a CCW purse....

Jayne

Jayne

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My step mom is a new gun owner, new CCW permit holder and basically untrained / generally unsafe due to inexperience. I'm working hard on the untrained/unsafe thing, but a new twist she came up with was wanting to carry in a CCW purse.

Identifying as male and having never carried a purse or ever thought about off-body carry, I wasn't keen on the idea. The videos online show all sorts of unsafe nonsense on how to carry/draw from a purse and the obvious problems with off-body carry and carrying your weapon in the place a thief would strike first.

Anyway... generally tactically poor choice that it is, it's not that hard to modify the first parts of the 4 part draw to safely draw and not flag the world. You hold the CCW purse with the 'side holster' at a 45 degree angle directly in front of you with the off hand and high in the middle of the 'boob area' and then the motion is like AIWB drawing. With the purse angled (vs. keeping it 90 degrees as videos tend to show) the muzzle ends up pointed down fairly close to you. The rest of the draw (clear, rotate, extend) is normal and can be done 'tight'.

I suggested to her that the main advantage to purse carry is that if things feel sketchy, or she knows she's doing something dangerous (walking to a car alone at night yada yada) just go ahead and do step one of the draw. Pull the purse up and get a firing grip on the weapon through the access port in the side. At that point the rest of the draw is quick, and if anyone sees her it just looks like she's clutching her purse, not brandishing a weapon in the walmart parking lot. When nothing happens, just release your firing grip and put the purse back down. No harm, no foul.

The worst part of the range session (2 hours of dry practice on drawing, 0 live rounds fired) was dad basically being embarrassed as I was wearing the purse around demonstrating the draw for her. Yea, I'm secure in my manhood enough to wear a brown purse with a black belt. Go figure.
 
TSConver said:
Tech her to also shoot through the purse, no need to draw it in an emergency.
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We discussed that, but I didn't want to fill her head with anything too complex. Getting a solid draw down from a holster and muzzle awareness should be mastered first for the safety of everyone.

I also left her with some drills to run. Dryfire drills for the draw, loading/unloading (with snap caps), etc that she can do at home, and then what to practice at the actual range. They go to TSA so she can't do anything fancy but if she masters all 4 parts of the draw dry, she can start after part 3 at the TSA and then go to 4 and fire, they won't say anything I don't think.

I also told her to spend the first 50 rounds of a 100 round practice session doing "extension, pick up the sights, and fire 1 round" over and over. After that $35 worth of ammo she'll have 50 live fire reps at getting a good first hit. Then she can go on to shooting more rounds per 'draw', but since she's lacking in establishing a solid grip/stance/body alignment she's not going to be controlling recoil well enough to get fast splits or accurate fire beyond that 1st round anyway. In time we'll work on that, but again, first up.... not being dangerous.

Some day she's going to have to go to a real class.
 
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Jayne said:
wear a brown purse with a black belt
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You'll never get invited over for Mamosas on Sundays dressed like that. You probably wear white shoes after labor day, too, dont ya?
Bless your heart...
 
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Jayne said:
We discussed that, but I didn't want to fill her head with anything too complex. Getting a solid draw down from a holster and muzzle awareness should be mastered first for the safety of everyone.

I also left her with some drills to run. Dryfire drills for the draw, loading/unloading (with snap caps), etc that she can do at home, and then what to practice at the actual range. They go to TSA so she can't do anything fancy but if she masters all 4 parts of the draw dry, she can start after part 3 at the TSA and then go to 4 and fire, they won't say anything I don't think.

I also told her to spend the first 50 rounds of a 100 round practice session doing "extension, pick up the sights, and fire 1 round" over and over. After that $35 worth of ammo she'll have 50 live fire reps at getting a good first hit. Then she can go on to shooting more rounds per 'draw', but since she's lacking in establishing a solid grip/stance/body alignment she's not going to be controlling recoil well enough to get fast splits or accurate fire beyond that 1st round anyway. In time we'll work on that, but again, first up.... not being dangerous.

Some day she's going to have to go to a real class.
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I disagree, she should be able to fire through it with little to no training. Wife has purse carry for most of her time carrying and when she teaches ladies to carry she always talks about shooting through the purse.

What gun is she carrying by the way?
 
TSConver said:
Teach her to also shoot through the purse, no need to draw it in an emergency.
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I only do it occasionally but I love my old ugly S&W 49 “humpback” in a jacket pocket for spontaneous quick trips. Yeah, it’s only a 5 shot .38special its enough to fight most of the time if backed into a corner. The idea of being able to fire from a pocket or pocketbook is pretty much GTF off me more than anything else and the shrouded hammer makes it fairly easy to just pull the trigger and not worry to much about a hammer, slide, etc getting boogered. If she likes a revolver and can handle the smaller grip S&W 649 has a decent amount of weight for this type thing. It might not be ideal for center mass shots but it has its merits … like Shawn and his wife point out.
 
TSConver said:
What gun is she carrying by the way?
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Something stupid and inappropriate for someone of her skill level. I've done what I can to educate, but at some point it's her choice.

I've shown her what to practice with respect to using the pistol she's picked, the rest is on her.

Oh, and after this session (our 3rd) I basically said "if you don't practice this at home and at the range before next session, there will not be another". I'm happy to help out, but if she puts in no effort between sessions it's clear she's not really interested in improving. Yea, I'm a bad step son.
 
Jayne said:
if she puts in no effort between sessions it's clear she's not really interested in improving.
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I had this conversation on the range today with some folks...I asked them to give me 3 minutes a day for a month on Presentation. I told them to break it up in 30 second increments if need be.
Most aren't willing to do this......I Still Do...after a half century of carrying concealed.
You are right....no practice....no more of my time.....Period.
 
Jayne said:
My step mom is a new gun owner, new CCW permit holder and basically untrained / generally unsafe due to inexperience. I'm working hard on the untrained/unsafe thing, but a new twist she came up with was wanting to carry in a CCW purse.

Identifying as male and having never carried a purse or ever thought about off-body carry, I wasn't keen on the idea. The videos online show all sorts of unsafe nonsense on how to carry/draw from a purse and the obvious problems with off-body carry and carrying your weapon in the place a thief would strike first.

Anyway... generally tactically poor choice that it is, it's not that hard to modify the first parts of the 4 part draw to safely draw and not flag the world. You hold the CCW purse with the 'side holster' at a 45 degree angle directly in front of you with the off hand and high in the middle of the 'boob area' and then the motion is like AIWB drawing. With the purse angled (vs. keeping it 90 degrees as videos tend to show) the muzzle ends up pointed down fairly close to you. The rest of the draw (clear, rotate, extend) is normal and can be done 'tight'.

I suggested to her that the main advantage to purse carry is that if things feel sketchy, or she knows she's doing something dangerous (walking to a car alone at night yada yada) just go ahead and do step one of the draw. Pull the purse up and get a firing grip on the weapon through the access port in the side. At that point the rest of the draw is quick, and if anyone sees her it just looks like she's clutching her purse, not brandishing a weapon in the walmart parking lot. When nothing happens, just release your firing grip and put the purse back down. No harm, no foul.

The worst part of the range session (2 hours of dry practice on drawing, 0 live rounds fired) was dad basically being embarrassed as I was wearing the purse around demonstrating the draw for her. Yea, I'm secure in my manhood enough to wear a brown purse with a black belt. Go figure.
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Pics of you wearing the purse, please? 😇
You know the "rules"....
....and good job showing her how to do all this. As a fairly new shooter myself, all of y'all helped me A LOT, so I'm glad that continues.
 
A lot of people miss the advantage of a purse thinking you have to draw the gun from it to defend yourself, quite the opposite. One can carry the gun in hand all the while the gun is totally concealed and that is one heck of an advantage in a split second world of self defense. Another advantage is a person doesn’t have to acquire the skills of fast and controlled draw of a weapon, you already have the gun in hand so what can be simpler for a fast well aimed response. Also the purse carries the weight so much more comfortably than any holster or contraption that man can dream up. The lady that enlightened me carries a full size all steel 1911, extra magazines and does so in style.
 
Millie said:
Pics of you wearing the purse, please? 😇
You know the "rules"....
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um, no.

Millie said:
....and good job showing her how to do all this. As a fairly new shooter myself, all of y'all helped me A LOT, so I'm glad that continues.
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In the last few years I've tried to help out as many people as I can, turning them into safer gun owners. Or not, in some cases. Some of my wife's anti-gun friends just wanted to learn more. They're still more anti-gun than not, but at least know something about the topic and were impressed at the amount of time/skill it takes to actually employ a gun beyond just "point and shoot" or what they see on TV.
 
My wife & I have been teaching NRA Women On Target clinics for many years. Then we downsized & only do smaller, more private type classes. But we focus mostly on ladies wanting to learn to shoot.
A purse carry & use, like ALL types of carry does require thought, training, understanding the pro's & cons, and most of all,,, PRACTICE.

My Mom suffered a violet attack & robbery in her store before she got more serious about what to carry, how to carry, & doing more practice. Good on you for teaching her. But you also need to get her to a class with someone she isn't "family familiar" with. It will help her a lot.

None of us are born with any natural abilities to perform any skills. We learn them, and by practicing we become better at them.

BTW; I'm man enough to wear, demonstrate & show how to carry, wear, & use a CCW purse too! But,, my better half does most of it anyway in classes. :D
 
I want to have a reasonable back and forth here on this subject. I understand the concept of keeping your hand in the purse while walking across the parking lot, going to your car, etc., but this obviously is not going to be happening in the real world at all times. I would love to see some videos of those that teach purse carry on a timer, and how it turns out. I also would like to see the results from the "shoot through the bag" crowd. I know how real world attacks go down, and you will never get to that gun in the purse, out, and actually in play before you're done. Kelly used to purse carry, all the while against me telling her the downfalls of it. It only took one scenario, of me "TELLING" her from one room over, that I'm going to get her. She didn't know when I was going to come around the corner, but even still, had her CC purse unzipped. I didn't walk fast, I just came around the corner. She had to wait till she laid eye's on me before trying to get to her gun. Never happened. She dumped it and carries AIWB now, and has for years. When the crap hits the fan, it's over, that gun will never get in play. If you feel different, please prove me wrong. Most people can't draw from concealment and get a round on a person from 7 yards when the bad guy gets to go first, and obviously it gets WAY worse the shorter the distance. So, let's see what you got!
 
Stick Man said:
I want to have a reasonable back and forth here on this subject.
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on here? ok that's funny. :)

Stick Man said:
Most people can't draw from concealment and get a round on a person from 7 yards when the bad guy gets to go first, and obviously it gets WAY worse the shorter the distance.
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Which for me personally is why I train unarmed too, figure I'm going to be way behind the curve because the bad guy gets to go first every time. That and the blessing of the media are advantages the bad guys get.

In the general case though, I feel that most (more than half is 'most') people can not fight an attacker at short range, much less actually use a gun to do so. The gun, knife, whatever are just a magic talisman that makes them feel better but in reality isn't going to help. I'm no expert, but I've tried in training more than most and it's hard, and never goes right on the first try which is all you get in real life.

In longer range scenarios, the "gun shots in the mall" or wherever that you've got some warning that something is going down, ok sure, then 20% of the people can do something. All those 3gun/USPSA/IDPA skills are valid when you know the fight is 'over there' and you're getting to play at the same time as the bad guy.

The purse, the untrained defender, etc can work, if you've got the time. The scenario dictates if you get that or not.

I told the step mom that to get my draw reasonable, I was doing 25-50 reps a day, every day, for months. every day, making it a habit, getting it right. Doesn't mean I'm awesome, but I'm betting I practice more than 99% of the gun owners out there.

Someone queue the guitar and musician quote.
 
It not always about the gun. People are too gun focused. The gun is actually one of the last tools to be utilized. Before the gun is tactics. Before tactics, it's observation.
Stickman is correct. People do not realize how long it takes to deploy a gun and most circumstances prohibit you from deploying a gun early, short of an ambush type situation.
The Teuller/21ft. drill demonstrates how timing and distance are against you. I put people through it so they feel it first hand, because people don't want to believe it and think they're faster than average. Kinda like the bar trick with the dollar bill. Everyone thinks they can catch it, even after you demonstrate to them they can't. Physiology won't let them.
That's one reason I've taught fundamental knife as one alternative. It actually better for many in close quarters reaction space and easier to carry for mutilple reasons.
But, before the hardware comes the software. Observing what's around you. Noticing and recognizing a developing scenario and the direction(s) it's coming from. Changing the scenario to your advantage by either leaving it or altering it. These are the basic tenants of the OODA Loop and resetting your opponent's loop. Those details are another in depth discussion.
But, let's use Stickman's training scenario as an example. With her observational skills she heard trouble was coming. She knows the general direction it was coming from. If she stays in place she will be where her attacker expects her to be and has to rely on superior physical skills to survive. What if she changes the scenario? What if she moves? What if she places herself in a different unexpected part of the room? What if she places furniture between her and her attacker? What if she draws first? What if she simply leaves the room?
This effectively resetting the opponent's OODA loop.


So much to cover...
 
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@georgel, excellent post, and you're right, so much to cover. When I told Kelly about the drill, her first reaction was to say to me, "I'll just leave the room, I won't be here", lol. I've worked hard with her on situational awareness. But, I wanted her to see that, in a "oh crap" moment, when you can't just easily leave, and you have to react NOW, then what. Most people don't train mindset, fundamental's, tactics, etc, so I wanted to kinda replicate how the average woman would react. She's also trained with me in Muay Thai and BJJ, so she knows it's not all about the gun. I taught a air soft force on force class years ago, and when it came time for the student's to run the drills, they all were so focused on the gun, from seven yards out, to at arms length distance. When the attacker, who had a plastic training knife, just sliced them up, still, all gun focused. They all looked at me with total confusion, they literally could not figure it out on their own. They asked, wtf do I do? I said, you fight. Don't worry about the gun. I've said for years, your best weapon is that soft mushy place between your ears. It all starts right there. So many people want their particular carry method to work, that they convince themselves it will be fine, without running drills/scenarios to actually see the results. @BatteryOaksBilly has the perfect way to test that, The Wizard. That has become my Gold standard on what works in a oh crap moment. Thanks Billy.
 
While we’re going down the 21 foot road I’ll add it’s good to learn what its like to have to draw from cover while on the ground … or while trying to fend of an attacker with your weak arm while drawing from concealment … or drawing weak handed cause your strong hand is sliced. All the time standing still firing at a stationary paper target 21 feet away only says you can aim. Get off the button and find a way to add real world SHTF stuff to your training. Don’t forget quite a bit of the time your hand(s) might be carrying something so there’s another Oops factor that will screw you over and screw with your 21 foot reaction timing … OODA is no joke and your gut needs to practice it just as your finger practices trigger pull.
 
Jayne said:
Getting a solid draw down from a holster and muzzle awareness should be mastered first for the safety of everyone.
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This ^^^^^^^^^^


Also, how does one "teach" a lady to shoot through a purse without having her actually shoot through a purse on a timer and verify results on a target? Anything less is just an assumption and not a verification/validation.
 
Hashknife said:
Also, how does one "teach" a lady to shoot through a purse without having her actually shoot through a purse on a timer and verify results on a target?
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tape up a paper bag to simulate the purse and just try it?

My primary concern on the whole 'shoot through' thing is if you're used to holding the purse with your off hand while trying to draw, you would have to train to not do that when doing the shoot through (or your off hand is sorta randomly around the muzzle of the gun)?
 
Jayne said:
tape up a paper bag to simulate the purse and just try it?

My primary concern on the whole 'shoot through' thing is if you're used to holding the purse with your off hand while trying to draw, you would have to train to not do that when doing the shoot through (or your off hand is sorta randomly around the muzzle of the gun)?
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The only true valadation is actually shooting through a purse ( filled with stuff ladies generally have in their purse ) and check the results on a timer and target.



Loosely wrap a hand towel around your gun and engage a target from the low ready on a timer. Better yet, engage two, or three targets at different distances and heights.
One will learn quite a bit by running this exercise.
 
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NCFubar said:
While we’re going down the 21 foot road I’ll add it’s good to learn what its like to have to draw from cover while on the ground … or while trying to fend of an attacker with your weak arm while drawing from concealment … or drawing weak handed cause your strong hand is sliced. All the time standing still firing at a stationary paper target 21 feet away only says you can aim. Get off the button and find a way to add real world SHTF stuff to your training. Don’t forget quite a bit of the time your hand(s) might be carrying something so there’s another Oops factor that will screw you over and screw with your 21 foot reaction timing … OODA is no joke and your gut needs to practice it just as your finger practices trigger pull.
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For me the big wake-up call when drawing from the ground or pressed up against a wall for that matter, is that the elbows need a place to go, if you carry in a 3-4 o'clock position. Appendix is somewhat better, but if you turn to shield you draw, you're jamming your elbows again.
At 21ft or less, an opponent is inside your reactionary time for a straight gun draw. Other tactics need to be deployed to mitigate the threat and/or create the window for a draw. And these don't have to be overtly physical. Simply moving to reset the opponets OODA loop and/or getting off the opponents line of force goes a long way.

Stick Man said:
@georgel, excellent post, and you're right, so much to cover. When I told Kelly about the drill, her first reaction was to say to me, "I'll just leave the room, I won't be here", lol. I've worked hard with her on situational awareness. But, I wanted her to see that, in a "oh crap" moment, when you can't just easily leave, and you have to react NOW, then what. Most people don't train mindset, fundamental's, tactics, etc, so I wanted to kinda replicate how the average woman would react. She's also trained with me in Muay Thai and BJJ, so she knows it's not all about the gun. I taught a air soft force on force class years ago, and when it came time for the student's to run the drills, they all were so focused on the gun, from seven yards out, to at arms length distance. When the attacker, who had a plastic training knife, just sliced them up, still, all gun focused. They all looked at me with total confusion, they literally could not figure it out on their own. They asked, wtf do I do? I said, you fight. Don't worry about the gun. I've said for years, your best weapon is that soft mushy place between your ears. It all starts right there. So many people want their particular carry method to work, that they convince themselves it will be fine, without running drills/scenarios to actually see the results. @BatteryOaksBilly has the perfect way to test that, The Wizard. That has become my Gold standard on what works in a oh crap moment. Thanks Billy.
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Unfortunately, once you tell someone things have to get physical, many turn off and don't want to face it. But, it doesn't always have to be hardcore hand-to-hand combat. You're just trying to create a window of opportunity to adequately deploy the gun if necessary. Because, if you don't, you'll never get the gun to bear on the target, much less out of your holster.
 
Jayne said:
tape up a paper bag to simulate the purse and just try it?

My primary concern on the whole 'shoot through' thing is if you're used to holding the purse with your off hand while trying to draw, you would have to train to not do that when doing the shoot through (or your off hand is sorta randomly around the muzzle of the gun)?
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Heavyweight small paper bags might be a good start. Maybe some worn out carry type fabric(ish) grocery sacks. Go pick up some old purses at Goodwill. You'll be surprised at the amount of muzzle blast/energy when it's contained like that. Expect blow back (wear eye pro) and maybe some stinging of the hand. I've not shot out of a bag, but I have shot pressed up against a target.
 
Sorry folks, I got confused. The lady I was referring to did not carry a 1911, she used the Glock 21 in 45acp, still a big gun.

The threads keep coming up with the need to draw which is not the way the lady displayed her carry in suspect areas. The purse is purposely built with a separate compartment for the handgun so a person can grip the weapon without any display of doing so. Now this lady was not your everyday shopper type but a professional deep cover LEO with years of experience but the techniques she used were easily manageable for the inexperienced. The one thing additional she taught me was always carry your car keys and IPhone separate from the purse in case of a beat down. Also buy a purse that has a metal strap insert and long enough to go over the neck so the purse hangs over your other side. Quick draw McGraw would be full of holes if he ever crossed paths with this lady, it’s hard to beat a person that has their hand well placed on their weapon while you are in the process of going from picking your nose to firing an accurate round.
 
Lots of good, solid tactical information here. With some of the facts presented,, many can see the various issues associated with ANY armed confrontation.

But I will inject a little info from my many years of actually TEACHING ladies classes.
99% of these ladies will never do much more than the initial class, nor do any of the practice mentioned above. Even when I teach; "Reaction is slower than action" (meaning that the BG has the advantage of starting the confrontation,) it falls on deaf ears when you say that you must practice a LOT to be able to react faster than normal. Most ladies will not do any of the stuff mentioned above.
But, if we can get these very same ladies to actually THINK about the potential issues,, it is a SMALL start.

And while we can hope for the best, often, it just doesn't happen. Yet,, sometimes it does. Reading the short clips of stories in the "Armed Citizen" column in the NRA publications proves that.

Heck, locally (Boone) we've lost (2) LEO's to a shooter. He acted, & they sadly didn't have time to react. The same thing happened last year, in Henderson County. Deputy Ryan Hendricks was approaching a suspect, who appeared to be complying, yet, the shooter acted, & Ryan wasn't able to react fast enough. The other 2 deputies did have time to act though. Action is faster than reaction, and you can only prepare up to a point.
 
Most visitors here have seen us start the oldest, fattest, slowest person out to 21 feet and have him charge forward on the buzzer and slap the time to stop the time. This time is always less than 2 seconds, ALWAYS.

We have on several occasions here shot through jacket pockets, so far never a purse. We Will be doing this. @Hashknife is correct, it won't be useful to just shoot through an empty purse. I intend to make this happen. The jacket pocket is absolutely Deadly. We have only tried it with a revolver.

@Stick Man is our go to for Hand to Hand. I would not attempt to change a word he says about Real CQB. I do, on the other hand have a good deal of history with the Personal Handgun In Defense AND Offence.

All are welcome to bring anything they wish to try that they even Think Might work for a Personal Firearm in self defense. I understand this is not possible on all ranges....it Is here.

There is nothing that I know of that will ever take the place of Practice. Reading and Pontificating will Never produce results. This is something you have to actually DO to get better.

3 minutes a day.........are you willing......or do you just Want to get better?
 
@BatteryOaksBilly, as always, is willing to try stuff to SHOW results. It's where the rubber meets the road. I can't wait to see some of these test actually done the way a woman would carry, with about 10#'s of crap in their purse, lol. As always though, people want to talk about getting better, not many actually want to put in the time and effort to really GET better. Hell, I saw it on our fight team. Guys wanted to compete, but bitched and moaned about our training sessions for the fight team. I will say, it was brutal, but so is a fight.

Sent from my T770B using Tapatalk
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
There is nothing that I know of that will ever take the place of Practice. Reading and Pontificating will Never produce results.
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Practice is preperation...


"Always be prepaired"...

Words to live by from a friend of mine who just went through this... Thankfully, she had done some training ( preparation ) with her gun, and had an idea what to do when the thief broke into her house and was literally 4 feet away from her with an icepick. If she had not prepaired, she would have become a statistic.

That small bit of training saved her life. She drew her gun from her purse on her nightstand. She had practiced this before ever committing to full time carry.

She did not eliminate the threat with one shot. She had to follow up with another shot. Firing a follow up shot from a purse could have been a potential recipe for disaster.


Screenshot_20210415-150610.png
 
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