Idpa rule update

dmarbell said:
I also wonder why they didn't get rid of the ridiculous rule against dropping loaded mags. If we're going to simulate actual gun fights, who would give a crap whether they stowed a mag during a "reload with retention" if enough bad guys were left to fight that you needed to make sure you were topped off?
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Why would you drop mags with ammo in them in the middle of a gunfight?
 
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H2O will begin using the new rules starting with April's match.

I like the fault line rule clarification that they don't extend uprange and a penalty will now be given for stepping past the end of a fault line if it exposes the shooter to unengaged targets. I've pushed for that to be fixed ever since we started using fault lines.
 
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Amp Mangum said:
Why would you drop mags with ammo in them in the middle of a gunfight?
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You'd have to make up scenarios for the reasons, kind of like we do to create IDPA stages. I engaged multiple attackers with P320 Compact starting with 15+1, and two 15-rd mags on my belt, and fired un-counted but numerous shots from the loaded gun. I ended up behind cover with an attacker or two bearing down on me, and I don't know if I have 1 bullet left in the gun, or more than one, but I know I shot a lot. I would reload behind cover and retain the first mag if possible, but 1) if the attackers were really closing in and I change mags I might not care if the mag had a bullet or 3 left in it when it hit the ground, because I don't want to be performing a slide-lock mag change while dodging bullets, or 2) in the heat of the battle I fumbled the mag, I'm not going to waste time retrieving it until the attackers are gone or down. If I had dropped a loaded mag and had a chance to adios-the-hell-outathere, I wouldn't retrieve the mag before I fired shots on retreat, as we are required to do based on IDPA rules.
 
If the attacker(s) are closing in on you and there is ammo in the gun, you should be putting holes in them and not changing magazines. šŸ˜

You can drop a mag with rounds in it if mags start staged at the shooting position and the shooter does not leave the position during the course of fire.
 
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Just got this from our area coordinator:

2022 IDPA Rulebook Q&A, 3/15/22
  1. Can we start using the new rules now? (Yes)
  2. When will sanctioned matches start using the new rules? (Each sanctioned match can choose to use the old or new rules before June 1. Please see the IDPA Match listings, practiscore, and other information to determine which ones will use old or new rules.)
  3. Are ranges allowed to restrict appendix carry holsters at IDPA Matches? (Yes, if the range safety rule restricts appendix carry holsters, but you must include the notification in all match notices and advertisements. It doesnā€™t matter what tier of match.)
  4. Can any Division Firearm have a Weapon Mounted Light? (Yes)
  5. For adding a light or laser on your gun, does it still have to fit in the box and make weight? (Yes, it must fit the box and make weight and be a 60 lumens light with no additional weight added)
  6. If the shooter uses a WML is it required to stay on the firearm for all stages or can it be put on / off at will. (No, it must stay on the firearm for all stages at a match)
  7. Dropping an empty mag with a round in the chamber will not get a PE any longer.
  8. Will printed copies of rulebook be available on IDPA website? (No, but itā€™s easy enough to take it to the local Kinkos/Staples and get it printed)
  9. Are active lasers (PCC / CO) allowed to be turned on before the start signal (No, flashlight rules apply)
  10. Can we still complete a stage with a mag in hand that we will not reuse?. (Yes)
  11. Now that the fault lines donā€™t extend uprange, is it a penalty for a shooter to step past the back end of the stick? (Generally, yes, if the shooter is exposed to an unengaged target)
  12. Can we place a fault line or other object to restrict a shooter from shooting behind the end of the fault line? (Yes, but you cannot create a shooting box. It can be a short fault line that creates a ā€œcorner.ā€ Also, if you have a 8 foot fault line but you want to keep the shooter to less than 5 feet, you can place the rear fault line at 5 feet. We recommend using an object such as a barrel or chair for the rear limit.)
  13. Must the shooter be within the length of the fault line to engage target(s) from the cover position the fault line indicates? (Yes, unless restricted by an object or a rear fault line)
  14. Does a three foot fault line still allow a shooter to use a distance of 8 feet? (No)
  15. If you have a wall and it cannot be used as a vision barrier then do all walls require a fault line. ? (No, only shooting positions of cover must have a fault line.)
  16. What kinds of materials can I use for a vision barrier? (Barrels, canvas, fake trees, hanging sheets, vehicles, tires, etc)
  17. Can a SSP firearm have a replacement barrel of a different color? (Yes, such as stainless steel).
  18. How does this affect the SO and CSO tests? Changed? If not when? What about new SOI training deck? (IDPA HQ is working on new curriculum and will announce the new continuing education program which will include a powerpoint presentation for every Safety Officer)
  19. Classifications no longer expire, although we encourage members to shoot one each year. The only exception is that for a TIer-5 match you must have shot a classifier within the previous year.
  20. The 3/4 dowel is no longer required.
  21. RE: 6.3.5 Can targets engaged thru a window less than 24ā€ wide be in the open? (The rule says that a window larger than 24ā€ MUST use a fault line, but a window less than 24ā€ can either be in the open or using a fault line, a position of cover.)
  22. 8.5.1.12 What is the butt of handgun. (The highest point of the backstrap when holstered)
RE: 4.12.1.3. Can tuxedo and iron maiden style targets still be used in ā€œstandardsā€ stages? (Yes, standards only)
  1. In order to force head shots, that can be specified in the COF instead of painting the body black.
  2. A target can be painted up to 50% black for hard cover in horizontal, vertical, or diagonal fashion for scenario stages. It may be painted in other ways for standard stages.
  3. Does appendix draw require concealment? (Yes)
 
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Amp Mangum said:
Just got this from our area coordinator:

2022 IDPA Rulebook Q&A, 3/15/22
  1. Can we start using the new rules now? (Yes)
  2. When will sanctioned matches start using the new rules? (Each sanctioned match can choose to use the old or new rules before June 1. Please see the IDPA Match listings, practiscore, and other information to determine which ones will use old or new rules.)
  3. Are ranges allowed to restrict appendix carry holsters at IDPA Matches? (Yes, if the range safety rule restricts appendix carry holsters, but you must include the notification in all match notices and advertisements. It doesnā€™t matter what tier of match.)
  4. Can any Division Firearm have a Weapon Mounted Light? (Yes)
  5. For adding a light or laser on your gun, does it still have to fit in the box and make weight? (Yes, it must fit the box and make weight and be a 60 lumens light with no additional weight added)
  6. If the shooter uses a WML is it required to stay on the firearm for all stages or can it be put on / off at will. (No, it must stay on the firearm for all stages at a match)
  7. Dropping an empty mag with a round in the chamber will not get a PE any longer.
  8. Will printed copies of rulebook be available on IDPA website? (No, but itā€™s easy enough to take it to the local Kinkos/Staples and get it printed)
  9. Are active lasers (PCC / CO) allowed to be turned on before the start signal (No, flashlight rules apply)
  10. Can we still complete a stage with a mag in hand that we will not reuse?. (Yes)
  11. Now that the fault lines donā€™t extend uprange, is it a penalty for a shooter to step past the back end of the stick? (Generally, yes, if the shooter is exposed to an unengaged target)
  12. Can we place a fault line or other object to restrict a shooter from shooting behind the end of the fault line? (Yes, but you cannot create a shooting box. It can be a short fault line that creates a ā€œcorner.ā€ Also, if you have a 8 foot fault line but you want to keep the shooter to less than 5 feet, you can place the rear fault line at 5 feet. We recommend using an object such as a barrel or chair for the rear limit.)
  13. Must the shooter be within the length of the fault line to engage target(s) from the cover position the fault line indicates? (Yes, unless restricted by an object or a rear fault line)
  14. Does a three foot fault line still allow a shooter to use a distance of 8 feet? (No)
  15. If you have a wall and it cannot be used as a vision barrier then do all walls require a fault line. ? (No, only shooting positions of cover must have a fault line.)
  16. What kinds of materials can I use for a vision barrier? (Barrels, canvas, fake trees, hanging sheets, vehicles, tires, etc)
  17. Can a SSP firearm have a replacement barrel of a different color? (Yes, such as stainless steel).
  18. How does this affect the SO and CSO tests? Changed? If not when? What about new SOI training deck? (IDPA HQ is working on new curriculum and will announce the new continuing education program which will include a powerpoint presentation for every Safety Officer)
  19. Classifications no longer expire, although we encourage members to shoot one each year. The only exception is that for a TIer-5 match you must have shot a classifier within the previous year.
  20. The 3/4 dowel is no longer required.
  21. RE: 6.3.5 Can targets engaged thru a window less than 24ā€ wide be in the open? (The rule says that a window larger than 24ā€ MUST use a fault line, but a window less than 24ā€ can either be in the open or using a fault line, a position of cover.)
  22. 8.5.1.12 What is the butt of handgun. (The highest point of the backstrap when holstered)
RE: 4.12.1.3. Can tuxedo and iron maiden style targets still be used in ā€œstandardsā€ stages? (Yes, standards only)
  1. In order to force head shots, that can be specified in the COF instead of painting the body black.
  2. A target can be painted up to 50% black for hard cover in horizontal, vertical, or diagonal fashion for scenario stages. It may be painted in other ways for standard stages.
  3. Does appendix draw require concealment? (Yes)
Click to expand...

@fieldgrade

You should be studying up on this list so you can properly hand down procedurals and flagrants.

Also, I don't see a requirement to start with hands at the ends of your arms.
 
Amp Mangum said:
  1. Dropping an empty mag with a round in the chamber will not get a PE any longer.
Click to expand...

I got burnt on that one once. The correct gamer move was to dump that 'extra' round into something and then reload like everyone else did, otherwise it looks like you're 'counting rounds'....
 
More updates:
  1. Am I required to have a separate handheld flashlight if I have a Weapon Mounted Light? (No)
  2. 3.2.3.2 can require specified head and body shots. This is not the same as dividing a target into 2 separate scoring zones, as 4.10.4 restricts. 4.10.4 refers to dividing a down zero into two zones.
  3. Cover during reloads. A vision barrier does not provide cover during reloads and is the same as being in the open. You may not leave cover with an unloaded gun (or while reloading) if you would be exposed to an unengaged target (as if the vision barrier was not there.) However, once you take one shot at the surprise or concealed targets, you may reload in front of unengaged targets as you would in the open.
  4. Cover during reloads: You may not leave cover using the re-engagement rule and then reload while traversing concealment. The key part of the rule is if you ā€œrun dryā€ in the open. The shooter didnā€™t run dry while moving to address open targets.
  5. What if I run empty while behind cover, can I still leave and perform a reload on the move, as long as I complete it behind cover OR concealment as long as I do not become ā€œexposedā€ to an unengaged target in the process?. (Yes, behind cover, NO, not behind concealment.)
  6. The rulebook is silent on removing a slide lock, whereas the old rulebook had the restriction. Therefore you may remove the slide lock. Note there is no general restriction about mag wells either.
  7. If a gun fails the gun inspection because of a safety being disabled or missing, the shooter should receive a DNF and may not use that gun to complete the match.
  8. Retention does not automatically require SHO. The COF may specify SHO retention. Support Hand Retention is not prohibited, but doesnā€™t make a lot of sense. 6.5.18.1 Strong-hand only stages requiring shooting with retention shall not exceed 1 yard distant from the shooter. Remember to cut out the -0 and leave the perf for close retention.
  9. 6.5.26.5.1 Simply means you canā€™t ignore a target covered by a non-threat and you must engage that target using tactical priority before moving to the target with lower priority, or leaving cover. You canā€™t say, ā€œWell I canā€™t see the threat target, so I can skip it and then come back to it.ā€
  10. Will IDPA provide any kind of liability insurance for safety officers if a shooterā€™s family decides to sue a safety officer for negligence if a shooter accidentally shoots themselves when drawing from an appendix holster? (This is no different than if someone shoots themselves while drawing from a strong side holster.)
  11. Calibration zones mentioned in 4.16 are defined in section 4.12.
 
Amp Mangum said:
Just got this from our area coordinator:

2022 IDPA Rulebook Q&A, 3/15/22
  1. Can we start using the new rules now? (Yes)
  2. When will sanctioned matches start using the new rules? (Each sanctioned match can choose to use the old or new rules before June 1. Please see the IDPA Match listings, practiscore, and other information to determine which ones will use old or new rules.)
  3. Are ranges allowed to restrict appendix carry holsters at IDPA Matches? (Yes, if the range safety rule restricts appendix carry holsters, but you must include the notification in all match notices and advertisements. It doesnā€™t matter what tier of match.)
  4. Can any Division Firearm have a Weapon Mounted Light? (Yes)
  5. For adding a light or laser on your gun, does it still have to fit in the box and make weight? (Yes, it must fit the box and make weight and be a 60 lumens light with no additional weight added)
  6. If the shooter uses a WML is it required to stay on the firearm for all stages or can it be put on / off at will. (No, it must stay on the firearm for all stages at a match)
  7. Dropping an empty mag with a round in the chamber will not get a PE any longer.
  8. Will printed copies of rulebook be available on IDPA website? (No, but itā€™s easy enough to take it to the local Kinkos/Staples and get it printed)
  9. Are active lasers (PCC / CO) allowed to be turned on before the start signal (No, flashlight rules apply)
  10. Can we still complete a stage with a mag in hand that we will not reuse?. (Yes)
  11. Now that the fault lines donā€™t extend uprange, is it a penalty for a shooter to step past the back end of the stick? (Generally, yes, if the shooter is exposed to an unengaged target)
  12. Can we place a fault line or other object to restrict a shooter from shooting behind the end of the fault line? (Yes, but you cannot create a shooting box. It can be a short fault line that creates a ā€œcorner.ā€ Also, if you have a 8 foot fault line but you want to keep the shooter to less than 5 feet, you can place the rear fault line at 5 feet. We recommend using an object such as a barrel or chair for the rear limit.)
  13. Must the shooter be within the length of the fault line to engage target(s) from the cover position the fault line indicates? (Yes, unless restricted by an object or a rear fault line)
  14. Does a three foot fault line still allow a shooter to use a distance of 8 feet? (No)
  15. If you have a wall and it cannot be used as a vision barrier then do all walls require a fault line. ? (No, only shooting positions of cover must have a fault line.)
  16. What kinds of materials can I use for a vision barrier? (Barrels, canvas, fake trees, hanging sheets, vehicles, tires, etc)
  17. Can a SSP firearm have a replacement barrel of a different color? (Yes, such as stainless steel).
  18. How does this affect the SO and CSO tests? Changed? If not when? What about new SOI training deck? (IDPA HQ is working on new curriculum and will announce the new continuing education program which will include a powerpoint presentation for every Safety Officer)
  19. Classifications no longer expire, although we encourage members to shoot one each year. The only exception is that for a TIer-5 match you must have shot a classifier within the previous year.
  20. The 3/4 dowel is no longer required.
  21. RE: 6.3.5 Can targets engaged thru a window less than 24ā€ wide be in the open? (The rule says that a window larger than 24ā€ MUST use a fault line, but a window less than 24ā€ can either be in the open or using a fault line, a position of cover.)
  22. 8.5.1.12 What is the butt of handgun. (The highest point of the backstrap when holstered)
RE: 4.12.1.3. Can tuxedo and iron maiden style targets still be used in ā€œstandardsā€ stages? (Yes, standards only)
  1. In order to force head shots, that can be specified in the COF instead of painting the body black.
  2. A target can be painted up to 50% black for hard cover in horizontal, vertical, or diagonal fashion for scenario stages. It may be painted in other ways for standard stages.
  3. Does appendix draw require concealment? (Yes)
Click to expand...
Number 7:[Dropping an empty mag with a round in the chamber will not get a PE any longer].
This essentially makes USPSA style speedloads ok as long as there are no rounds in the mag. I am reading this right, right?
 
Whatā€™s the answer to question 10?
 
Starkherz199 said:
Number 7:[Dropping an empty mag with a round in the chamber will not get a PE any longer].
This essentially makes USPSA style speedloads ok as long as there are no rounds in the mag. I am reading this right, right?
Click to expand...
Correct.
 
I have a question. Maybe more than one.

When I went last Saturday--my first and only IDPA match--I saw a lot of, um, non-standard defensive set-ups (battle belts, not concealed), also drop-leg/low holsters. What is the stance on this?

What are min/max mag requirements? I saw anywhere from two to five on belts.

If a target required 'n' shots, but you did 'y' (i.e., 2 head shots but I shot 3), is there a penalty?

Thanks for your patience. Trying to understand the rules of the road 'cause I am sure I will be out there again.
 
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Chuckman said:
I have a question. Maybe more than one.

When I went last Saturday--my first and only IDPA match--I saw a lot of, um, non-standard defensive set-ups (battle belts, not concealed), also drop-leg/low holsters. What is the stance on this?

What are min/max mag requirements? I saw anywhere from two to five on belts.

If a target required 'n' shots, but you did 'y' (i.e., 2 head shots but I shot 3), is there a penalty?

Thanks for your patience. Trying to understand the rules of the road 'cause I am sure I will be out there again.
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I can answer some of these. If the stage is ā€œunlimited", you can shoot till you run out of ammo, which for the division you were shooting would be 31 rounds. Three mags, loaded 11, 10 and 10. And the stages are never over 18 rounds.

Some stages are ā€œlimitedā€ (although none last week that I recall) where you canā€™t make up shots, and if you do, for every shot you take over the prescribed number of shots, you lose one of your best shots, and I believe are also accessed a procedural penalty.

As for number of magazines, some guys in certain divisions might require an extra Barney mag just to load the first round if their mags only hold, say, 10 when the first one needed to hold 11. Or in CDP where they're shooting 1911ā€™s in 45 you need 9 to start, but the mag only holds 8. Same thing. Need a fourth barney mag.

As for non standard gear, cops and military are permitted to shoot their duty gear, so you will see some of that, and being just a local club match we try not to be Nazis about it, although if you are a top shooter at the match, and are running gear, ammo, etc, thatā€™s not ā€œIDPA legalā€ you will get heat for that.

Some particular stages we shot didnā€™t require concealment. There was at least one stage like that Saturday. Sometimes people forget to put their concealment garment back on if itā€™s warm and they took it off. We try to notice and remind them to put it on. Again, if you forget, and we donā€™t take notice, and you arenā€™t likely to win the $100,000 cash prize that day, it gets ignored.
 
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Back when the wake matches were a thing, I would sometimes run TWO holsters at the same time; AIWB to start the stage and then strong side to reholster after the stage. That way I wasn't putting a physically hot gun back inside my pants. I learned that the hard way real quick after stage 1, you wouldn't think a 9mm would get that hot after only 25 rounds but apparently it does.

Will be curious to see if others try that and what IDPA might say. Now that there are two holster methods.... is there a rule saying you can only use one at a time?
 
fieldgrade said:
I can answer some of these. If the stage is ā€œunlimited", you can shoot till you run out of ammo, which for the division you were shooting would be 31 rounds. Three mags, loaded 11, 10 and 10. And the stages are never over 18 rounds.

Some stages are ā€œlimitedā€ (although none last week that I recall) where you canā€™t make up shots, and if you do, for every shot you take over the prescribed number of shots, you lose one of your best shots, and I believe are also accessed a procedural penalty.

As for number of magazines, some guys in certain divisions might require an extra Barney mag just to load the first round if their mags only hold, say, 10 when the first one needed to hold 11. Or in CDP where they're shooting 1911ā€™s in 45 you need 9 to start, but the mag only holds 8. Same thing. Need a fourth barney mag.

As for non standard gear, cops and military are permitted to shoot their duty gear, so you will see some of that, and being just a local club match we try not to be Nazis about it, although if you are a top shooter at the match, and are running gear, ammo, etc, thatā€™s not ā€œIDPA legalā€ you will get heat for that.

Some particular stages we shot didnā€™t require concealment. There was at least one stage like that Saturday. Sometimes people forget to put their concealment garment back on if itā€™s warm and they took it off. We try to notice and remind them to put it on. Again, if you forget, and we donā€™t take notice, and you arenā€™t likely to win the $100,000 cash prize that day, it gets ignored.
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Somebody's been studying up on their rules. How are you doing on the new set? Remember, there might be a quiz.

In all seriousness, at some point there will be just one rule too many.
 
dmarbell said:
Somebody's been studying up on their rules. How are you doing on the new set? Remember, there might be a quiz.

In all seriousness, at some point there will be just one rule too many.
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That was recitation of the current rules from 2017. No cheat sheet.

Like @Starkherz199 said, we learn them one procedural at a time.
 
Boy, this is some kind of complicated for an old man. I knew there was a good reason that I shoot cas and zsa [ipsc lite] matches with big old .45s.
 
Jayne said:
Back when the wake matches were a thing, I would sometimes run TWO holsters at the same time; AIWB to start the stage and then strong side to reholster after the stage. That way I wasn't putting a physically hot gun back inside my pants. I learned that the hard way real quick after stage 1, you wouldn't think a 9mm would get that hot after only 25 rounds but apparently it does.

Will be curious to see if others try that and what IDPA might say. Now that there are two holster methods.... is there a rule saying you can only use one at a time?
Click to expand...
Wow, I thought that your two holster setup was just some type of ā€œCaliforniaā€ thing.ā€¦. I kept waiting to see you holding your pistol sideways too but you disappointed me in that regard.

;)
 
Scsmith42 said:
Wow, I thought that your two holster setup was just some type of ā€œCaliforniaā€ thing.ā€¦. I kept waiting to see you holding your pistol sideways too but you disappointed me in that regard.

;)
Click to expand...

You're lucky they shut the wake match down or we would have gotten there. Our first nonsense stage (that was actually implemented to much complaining) was requiring everyone to take the first 3 shots out of the supplied Hi-point C9 before picking up their own gun.

The next was to require the shooter to engage the first 3 targets with "strong hand only with the grip of the pistol held parallel to the floor". Holding your pants up with your support hand would be optional, but encouraged.
 
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Jayne said:
You're lucky they shut the wake match down or we would have gotten there. Our first nonsense stage (that was actually implemented to much complaining) was requiring everyone to take the first 3 shots out of the supplied Hi-point C9 before picking up their own gun.

The next was to require the shooter to engage the first 3 targets with "strong hand only with the grip of the pistol held parallel to the floor". Holding your pants up with your support hand would be optional, but encouraged.
Click to expand...

Damn, Iā€™m sorry that I missed that! Do you get Extra points for ā€œ grabbing your packageā€ with your support hand While shooting sideways???
 
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Maybe Kelly (Jayne)'s next version will be "Super Gangsta Style"!

 
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