It took 'em 4 days to go WROL

HMP said:
I question this - we had trade with China 120~ years ago
As did other European countries
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Trade, some. Still command and control. Maybe a better term would be investment. Nixon opening relations up led to their instituting some free-ish market ideas. That is what has driven their economy since. My understanding is the economy before that was pretty much 3rd world with gov/party telling business what to do. Now business gets to make more of those decisions.


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chiefjason said:
Trade, some. Still command and control. Maybe a better term would be investment. Nixon opening relations up led to their instituting some free-ish market ideas. That is what has driven their economy since. My understanding is the economy before that was pretty much 3rd world with gov/party telling business what to do. Now business gets to make more of those decisions.
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We need @fishgutzy to weigh in on this, but I don’t get the sense that any Chinese business makes decisions that would be disapproved by the Chinese government. It looks like they have more freedom, but th just know how to color inside the lines.
 
JimB said:
We need @fishgutzy to weigh in on this, but I don’t get the sense that any Chinese business makes decisions that would be disapproved by the Chinese government. It looks like they have more freedom, but th just know how to color inside the lines.
Click to expand...
China was circling the drain as all communist/socialist regimes do.
China avoids the going back to that only by the degree to which they allow some semblance of a free market.
But government distortions are everywhere in the Chinese market.
When you have govt subsidized canteens (cafeterias) near office buildings in the work place it harms the free market restaurants that are near the office.
But within the free market restaurants, the failure rate is similar to the US. A huge percentage fail in the first year. It is just more obvious because there are so many now restaurants in this dense area than in most of the US. The good restaurants survive. The bad ones don't.
The impact of communism on innovation is weeken about extensively.
In short, the government seems to suppress free and creative thinking. They do not teach students how to think and how to learn they teach them what to think.
Thus China relies heavily on industrial espionage and IP theft. Nobody can goi into business in China and expect a contract to new honored. Even when they license technology, they simply claim they changed it and made new IP.

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Added note.
Teaching methods in China in a way are not that different from US schools where teachers are told to teach to the next test.
My wife ignored that. She taught the students how to learn math. As a result she had more students go on to honors math in high school than any other teacher in Boston.
When people tell you the left is trying to destroy our public schools, they are correct.

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JimB said:
We need @fishgutzy to weigh in on this, but I don’t get the sense that any Chinese business makes decisions that would be disapproved by the Chinese government. It looks like they have more freedom, but th just know how to color inside the lines.
Click to expand...

Under communism the state told a business what to make and how much to make and how much to charge for it. The initial transition told them what to make, how many to make, but allowed them to make more if they wanted to once the gov contract was fulfilled. That proved so successful that they took another step back and that's where they are now. With Nixon they allowed foreign companies in and I think they allowed foreign financing to come in. They no longer really need either of those but outside money got them off the ground I believe. US furniture businesses partnered heavily with them and it pretty much destroyed US furniture manufacturing in NC. We taught them everything they know.
 
HMP said:
I question this - we had trade with China 120~ years ago
As did other European countries
Click to expand...


China didn’t have Chairman Mao 120 years ago. Once he took power, China’s foreign trade was extremely limited and around 70% of it was with the USSR. Also, the US embargoed almost all trade with China from around 1950 until President Nixon lifted the embargo on a number of goods in 1971.
 
wsfiredude said:
Thing with trades is not so much an issue of "can't" with some folks, but "won't"...a flat out refusal to entertain the idea of doing a job that is "beneath" them....

But let their vehicle break down, their A/C stops working or their toilet springs a leak and who do they call? Who are they dependent on?

That's right...folks that ain't afraid to get dirty.
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I agree with 90% of what you said. That said an alarming number of people lack the basic skills and knowledge that will allow them to make basic repairs etc. You can't expect someone who can't change a tire to make basic vehicle repairs. Teaching classes on basic home and vehicle repairs is a growing industry in several areas. IMHO one of the biggest failures of the public schools has been doing away with basic shop/tech programs.
 
fishgutzy said:
China was circling the drain as all communist/socialist regimes do.
China avoids the going back to that only by the degree to which they allow some semblance of a free market.
But government distortions are everywhere in the Chinese market.
When you have govt subsidized canteens (cafeterias) near office buildings in the work place it harms the free market restaurants that are near the office.
But within the free market restaurants, the failure rate is similar to the US. A huge percentage fail in the first year. It is just more obvious because there are so many now restaurants in this dense area than in most of the US. The good restaurants survive. The bad ones don't.
The impact of communism on innovation is weeken about extensively.
In short, the government seems to suppress free and creative thinking. They do not teach students how to think and how to learn they teach them what to think.
Thus China relies heavily on industrial espionage and IP theft. Nobody can goi into business in China and expect a contract to new honored. Even when they license technology, they simply claim they changed it and made new IP.

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Click to expand...
This is a bit off topic but is the Chinese repuatation for poor Q/C improving? I only ask because the reputation/quality of Chinese optics seems to have improved in recent years.
 
nchunt101 said:
This is a bit off topic but is the Chinese repuatation for poor Q/C improving? I only ask because the reputation/quality of Chinese optics seems to have improved in recent years.
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Ha.
The company I work for has framed ISO9000 and newer certificates for quality control systems.
But having been a certified ISO/TS internal auditor at 2 prior employers, there is ZERO quality management at the company. There are no quality management system documents. The is no documented product development process.
I'm pretty sure this is not threw only company that fakes ISO Certification.

The Chinese don't even like to buy Chinese brands.

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fishgutzy said:
Ha.
The company I work for has framed ISO9000 and newer certificates for quality control systems.
But having been a certified ISO/TS internal auditor at 2 prior employers, there is ZERO quality management at the company. There are no quality management system documents. The is no documented product development process.
I'm pretty sure this is not threw only company that fakes ISO Certification.

The Chinese don't even like to buy Chinese brands.

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Click to expand...
I have wondered about this. The Japanese had a reputation for poor quality cheap stuff in the early 60s and then latched on to Demming and now have a reputation for some of the best craftsmanship around. I have wondered if this is just the normal progression of an industrializing country/culture, but then I have to admit that the most chiseling, conniving, cheating and dishonest scammers I have any experience with are Chinese, and I wonder if it is just the culture. If so, they won't make that jump. I don't know enough to have an opinion. I just know that a work ethic is necessary to prosper.
 
tanstaafl72555 said:
I have wondered about this. The Japanese had a reputation for poor quality cheap stuff in the early 60s and then latched on to Demming and now have a reputation for some of the best craftsmanship around. I have wondered if this is just the normal progression of an industrializing country/culture, but then I have to admit that the most chiseling, conniving, cheating and dishonest scammers I have any experience with are Chinese, and I wonder if it is just the culture. If so, they won't make that jump. I don't know enough to have an opinion. I just know that a work ethic is necessary to prosper.
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Chinese culture has been corrupted by communism. Communism is a corrupt system that infects the entire society. Honesty and integrity get one dissipated or killed.
Communism kills creativity and innovation because it kills creative thinking.
The Soviet Union and now Russia are the same corrupt and dishonest.

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