IWI opinions

sixtysevensg

sixtysevensg

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So I've been looking around for another rifle and I ran across the Zion 12.5 pistol. I dig the setup of these and wanted some opinions. I know of the Galil, Tavor and Jerhico but have never shot them. What do y'all think?

Z15 556 12.5

MANUFACTURER: IWI - Israel Weapon Industries FAMILY: ZION Series MODEL: Z-15 TYPE: Semi-Auto Pistol ACTION: Semi-Auto CALIBER/GAUGE: 223 Rem | 5.56 NATO FINISH: Black FINISH TYPE: Black STOCK: Collapsible / Folding Stock STOCK/GRIPS: Bravo Company B5 Stock/Grip BARREL: 12.5"...
www.smga.com www.smga.com
 
I have prob. 3 to 3.5K rounds through my X95. Not a single issue that wasn't user induced on purpose to train malfunctions. My X95 is prob. the most reliable gun I own. I actually have a Tavor 7 (308) in the mail to my LGS as I type this. I have a couple friends with IWI guns (T7, X95, Galils) and all love them.

I have no direct experience with their ARs, but I'd be shocked if they weren't every bit as reliable and well built as their other guns...

Buy it... I don't think you'll be disappointed. As a pro-tip, if you are a Vet, LEO, Firefighter etc... they have a great public service officer available through their website.
 
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Appears to be midlength gas, which is interesting for a 12.5”.
Seems to be made in USA.
 
Manufactured at the IWI facility in Pennsylvania, the ZION-15 employs a mid-length, direct impingement operating system with fixed gas block. Its 4150 chrome moly vanadium, heavy-contour, 16-inch barrel is rifled at a 1:8” twist rate, has a 5.56x45mm NATO chamber and is tipped with an A2 flash hider. Actually assembled in PA so you should always use a USA manufactured magazine to keep the rifle in compliance with ITAR.
Edit: S/B 922r not ITAR.
I enjoy shooting my Tavor and Galil Ace 2.

 
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Button Pusher said:
Actually assembled in PA so you should always use a USA manufactured magazine to keep the rifle in compliance with ITAR.
Click to expand...

This statement makes no sense. Is that from the IWI website? ITAR is about the sale and export of weapons and related items from the US to foreign countries:

"International Traffic in Arms Regulations is a United States regulatory regime to restrict and control the export of defense and military related technologies to safeguard U.S. national security and further U.S. foreign policy objectives."

So basically, I can't buy an ACOG, or IR laser etc... from EuroOptic and then knowing sell it to someone in Nigeria.

922r Compliance is usually what people mean when talking about imported guns requiring a minimum number of US made domestic parts to remain compliant with the law.:

"Section 922r of US Code, Title 18 is a regulation which pertains to building or modifying a semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from imported parts. This law impacts importers, manufacturers, gunsmiths and consumers who assemble their own firearms."

Often, importers will use a US made magazine to compile with this law as those are cheap and easy to find. However, if the gun is manufactured in the US, 922r would no longer apply. So whichever magazine you choose to use is irrelevant. So this only makes sense if the are sourcing the bulk of their parts from overseas and only assembling them here, similar to how they do some of their other guns. However, their website explicitly states manufactured & assembled in PA.
 
The instruction book with these firearms state what I posted. That is why they include a Magpul magazine. These firearms have content made in Israel.
 
When did you buy it? It is possible that originals were imported before they fully stood up manufacturing / sourcing operations here in the US. If the OP buys one I'd be interested to see what his manual states.

Not doubting that its in your manual, but it still makes no sense... They would be worried about 922r, not ITAR compliance.
 
So any benefit to having a mid length gas system rather than a pistol length? That is one of the features that caught my attention.
 
sixtysevensg said:
So any benefit to having a mid length gas system rather than a pistol length? That is one of the features that caught my attention.
Click to expand...

That's a very tricky question... if you ask 100 people you'd prob. get 100 different answers. I think the more appropriate question would be which is better, a carbine length or mid-length as pistol length only tends to be used (from my understanding) in very short barreled (like 8") AR pistols.

I'm not an engineer, gunsmith or professional door-kicker, but as long as the rest of the system is tuned around the gas system being used, the difference to the shooter is negligible. I think where people get in trouble is with home builds where they don't understand the balance between the gas port size, gas block, BCG, spring and buffer they are using so they end up with a really over-gassed or under-gassed gun.

Read up on the differences, there are tons of articles and sources out there, and determine for yourself. If it was me and my money, based on the reliability I've seen from IWIs other guns... I'd have every confidence in the world that it would function, be reliable, and shoot well.

danieldefense.com

What’s the Best Gas System for an AR-15?

An AR-15 is a gas-operated rifle with multiple options, but which is the best for accuracy, reliability and shootability: Rifle, Mid, Carbine or Pistol Length?
danieldefense.com danieldefense.com
 
Spartan01 said:
Interesting…

How much you wanna bet there will be feeb cuckboi simps who will use this to turn unsuspecting gun owners into felons?
Guaranteed they will do exactly that! Some Fudd at the range hands you a mag, and now you are a felon because…
What a bunch of narcs!
Click to expand...

Or,
Take the brace off.

Not hard.
 
biffmann said:
This statement makes no sense. Is that from the IWI website? ITAR is about the sale and export of weapons and related items from the US to foreign countries:

"International Traffic in Arms Regulations is a United States regulatory regime to restrict and control the export of defense and military related technologies to safeguard U.S. national security and further U.S. foreign policy objectives."

So basically, I can't buy an ACOG, or IR laser etc... from EuroOptic and then knowing sell it to someone in Nigeria.

922r Compliance is usually what people mean when talking about imported guns requiring a minimum number of US made domestic parts to remain compliant with the law.:

"Section 922r of US Code, Title 18 is a regulation which pertains to building or modifying a semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from imported parts. This law impacts importers, manufacturers, gunsmiths and consumers who assemble their own firearms."

Often, importers will use a US made magazine to compile with this law as those are cheap and easy to find. However, if the gun is manufactured in the US, 922r would no longer apply. So whichever magazine you choose to use is irrelevant. So this only makes sense if the are sourcing the bulk of their parts from overseas and only assembling them here, similar to how they do some of their other guns. However, their website explicitly states manufactured & assembled in PA.
Click to expand...
Its old copy, these firearms fall under EAR.
 
JBoyette said:
Its old copy, these firearms fall under EAR.
Click to expand...
I am no lawyer nor is Wikipedia a definitive source of legal info... But it looks like ITAR is a separate set of regulations distinctly outside of EAR...

Exceptions to EAR applicability
Edit
The EAR do not apply, however, to the following:

Items that are exclusively controlled for export or reexport by the following departments and agencies of the U.S. Government which regulate exports or reexports for national security or foreign policy purposes:
Department of State. The International Traffic in Arms Regulations (22 CFR parts 120-130) administered by the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls relate to defense articles and defense services on the U.S. Munitions List (22 CFR part 121). Section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778). (Also see paragraph (b)(1)(vi) of this section).

Export Administration Regulations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
biffmann said:
I am no lawyer nor is Wikipedia a definitive source of legal info... But it looks like ITAR is a separate set of regulations distinctly outside of EAR...

Exceptions to EAR applicability
Edit
The EAR do not apply, however, to the following:

Items that are exclusively controlled for export or reexport by the following departments and agencies of the U.S. Government which regulate exports or reexports for national security or foreign policy purposes:
Department of State. The International Traffic in Arms Regulations (22 CFR parts 120-130) administered by the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls relate to defense articles and defense services on the U.S. Munitions List (22 CFR part 121). Section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778). (Also see paragraph (b)(1)(vi) of this section).

Export Administration Regulations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...

Commerce firearms were moved from ITAR to EAR in 2015. We have updates in 2020 and 2021, if you are interested in the import and export of commerce firearms, here you go.


The part that matters the most to us is in anti-gun laws and how they apply. IF the AWB is moved forward, the ban will be struck down based on established trade laws. The idea that a Weapon of War is traded under ITAR and a commerce firearm is traded under EAR is established. But NSSF will fight that IF the law is passed through.

Lastly,
The definition of "Pistol", "Pistol Brace", "Rifle", "SBR", "SBS", Shotgun" are 100% American. Not global definitions of what a firearm is, or is not.
Example1 the UK: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/firearms
 
JBoyette said:
Damn,

Post 3.

I did midgas with 11.75" and 12.5" and 14.0" and 14.5" with War Sport in 2011. Its fine.

The dwell is a myth, if dwell mattered, then a M1 Grand would never work.
Click to expand...

If they stick the port right next to the muzzle it will work just as well as if it had 2-3 inches of dwell time?

Interesting.
 
NKD said:
If they stick the port right next to the muzzle it will work just as well as if it had 2-3 inches of dwell time?

Interesting.
Click to expand...

Yes,
It's not a "psi" per-say it's volume of gas.

I tried to do a psi thing, like a air compressor, but a 3% fps in ammunition, made a huge psi swing. I never figured out the range, it was too big to be a "range".

So I now say and think it's a volume of gas. I need this much volume, at any pressure level. This fits the 8 steps of cycle and the action of brass vs steel casings

Closer to the muzzle, larger the orifice. The id of the gas tube is a non issue.

But, the gas port on the gas block that mates with the gas port on the barrel, is a hell of a governor. I have etched a few, gas blocks.

You know it's a issue when your gas block has leaking carbon around its journal
 
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Let's get this thread back to the OP's question:

@sixtysevensg I have two shooting buddies that each have the Zion 16" rifles. What limited trigger time I have with them I felt they were a good quality rifle and a good value. Accuracy of the sample size of two rifles was good, nothing spectacular. They come with a BCM grip and stock on the 16", and that looks like an SB Tactical brace on the pistol.
 
*Note that the Tavor X95 rifle is assembled in the US from imported and US parts under 18 U.S.C § 922(r). You should only use magazines made in the USA in your Tavor X95. Use of an imported magazine may put you in violation of 18 U.S.C § 922(r).

Easier then taking a scan of the page in the manuals. My Tavor X95 was purchased 11/2018. Below is the current link to the above quote.
I should have stated 922r instead of ITAR. The IWI rifles are made 922r compliant at the IWI facility in PA.

Tavor X95 – 5.56 NATO 16.5″ Barrel - IWI US

You are here:HomePage Tavor X95 5.56 NATO 16.5″ Barrel Previous Next OVERVIEW The Tavor® X95™ is the next generation bullpup from IWI US, Inc. Upgrades and enhancements from the original TAVOR® SAR include a new fire control pack with a 5-6 lb. trigger pull, repositioning of the ambidextrous mag...
iwi.us iwi.us
 
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My wife just purchased a IWI Zion 16" AR. We lubed it up a little and took it to the range. Sighted in the red dot we added and she ran a couple of mags through it, looked at me and smiled and said "that's fun". So it has her stamp of approval. (although I think this is going to cost me a lot in ammo, it's her first AR) I think the trigger is a little stiff but it's mil spec so that's probably to be expected. Fit and finish seem really good. Everything is properly staked and I think it's a pretty good value for the money.
 
biffmann said:
This statement makes no sense. Is that from the IWI website? ITAR is about the sale and export of weapons and related items from the US to foreign countries:

"International Traffic in Arms Regulations is a United States regulatory regime to restrict and control the export of defense and military related technologies to safeguard U.S. national security and further U.S. foreign policy objectives."

So basically, I can't buy an ACOG, or IR laser etc... from EuroOptic and then knowing sell it to someone in Nigeria.

922r Compliance is usually what people mean when talking about imported guns requiring a minimum number of US made domestic parts to remain compliant with the law.:

"Section 922r of US Code, Title 18 is a regulation which pertains to building or modifying a semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from imported parts. This law impacts importers, manufacturers, gunsmiths and consumers who assemble their own firearms."

Often, importers will use a US made magazine to compile with this law as those are cheap and easy to find. However, if the gun is manufactured in the US, 922r would no longer apply. So whichever magazine you choose to use is irrelevant. So this only makes sense if the are sourcing the bulk of their parts from overseas and only assembling them here, similar to how they do some of their other guns. However, their website explicitly states manufactured & assembled in PA.
Click to expand...
I was gonna say the same, does not seem to make sense.
 
Noveske has been making a 12.5 Midlength for over 6 years. Read here and see the skepticism: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?185980-12-5-quot-mid-length-gas-system

Then read here and see how much people love them AFTER THEY ACTUALLY RUN THEM.

12.5" barrel

So, thinking of doing a 12.5", my first of this length. I'm considering a "mini precision" type build with the appropriate optic to be debated later. Question is on the gas system for those who have used 12.5's, carbine or does anyone utilize a mid length? This would be initially on a pistol...
www.m4carbine.net

Docsherm is a staple on M4C and he went from "I have 5 12.5s and one of them is middy and needed tuning" to "If you're going 12.5, get a middy for precision."

You can't stop progress...
 
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