KAC SR15 E3 Mod2 $2470

Discussion in 'HOT Deals - Links to what we can't live without' started by Prudii, May 2, 2020.

  1. Prudii

    Prudii Active Member Supporting Member

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  2. Apex Defense Group

    Apex Defense Group Active Member Sponsor

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    Not yet! 33,000 rounds and going strong! However I still may be interested lol
     
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  3. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    $2500 is a hot deal? What are they normally?
     
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  4. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
     
  5. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Dunno. That’s the same price I’m seeing them almost everywhere. Brownell’s wanted $2616, but the rest were under $2500.
     
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  6. mig1nc

    mig1nc Member

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    It's KAC. "In stock" makes it a good deal.


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  7. JRHorne

    JRHorne Certified Hater

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  8. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    I mean they make neat tiny sights... Other than that what makes them twice to three times the price of a good AR?
     
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  9. mig1nc

    mig1nc Member

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    It's pretty much the ultimate evolution of the DI operating system.

    It doesn't use a normal gas block or gas tube or even barrel.

    You can swap the handguard, but it's probably the best lightweight fighting handguard there is... It has no barrel nut to flex on because the whole thing is the barrel nut.

    The gas system length on the 14.5 and 16" guns is also proprietary, longer than mid. Shorter than rifle.

    Then there is the lower which has some ambidextrous controls.

    They are pretty much the softest shooting and most efficient fighting ARs there are.


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  10. Variable

    Variable Tactical Badass Life Member

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    Knight's and Hodge are the pinnacle of AR's. Knight's is their own animal they exceed mil spec. I'll likely get one some day.
     
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  11. Travis B

    Travis B Happy to be here

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    Are these two really comparable?
     
  12. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    Its a "fighting" Ar.

    You don't need it.
     
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  13. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    So it's spendy because it's all proprietary and high quality. Gotcha...
     
  14. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    Didn't know there was such a thing... I thought ARs were for civilians and M-16 variants were for warfighters...
     
  15. Variable

    Variable Tactical Badass Life Member

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    Well since Hodge is mostly vaporware probably not.
     
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  16. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Well, a Colt is a fighting AR. (Or FN, whichever). It is inarguably better than those two, qualitatively.

    The only KAC I shot with any experience was the M110. I love some KAC, right up there with H&K.
     
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  17. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    Not sure why you're quoting me, I never mentioned Colt or HK or whichever was inarguably better?

    Glad you like them. Congrats are in order, I guess?
     
  18. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    It's inarguably better than whatever you have.
     
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  19. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    You mean the poverty pony isn't just as good?
     
  20. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    Even the bankrupt pony isn't as good...
     
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  21. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Just highlighting the comment of a fighting AR; yes, it is a fighting AR, as are the other two, but given a choice to have to pick one, most everyone will pick the KAC. For all the right reasons.

    Not arguing, merely underscoring. Nothing nefarious.
     
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  22. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    I agree, given the choice, most people would pick a free 2600$ item over a free 800$ item.
     
  23. mig1nc

    mig1nc Member

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    To be clear, KAC isn't just proprietary for the sake of being proprietary.

    Every design decision is made for an objective improvement over milspec.

    I consider the KAC the ultimate evolution of the DI AR, and Hodge the ultimate execution of a milspec format AR.


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  24. Variable

    Variable Tactical Badass Life Member

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    Yep, this about sums it up. If i had to choose i think i would take the Knights. Plus Hodge builds so few guns, to get one from him is near impossible for mortal humans.

    V
     
  25. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    What makes the Hodge better than, say, a JP? Or the KAC for that matter?
     
  26. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Can the same not also be said for, say LaRue? HK? Why would you pick KAC over these (or not)? Not being argumentative, genuinely curious....

    On this forum we spend time parsing the less expensive/lower tier/lesser quality from the often within-grasp middle of the road. Not many of us can shell out >$2K for an AR, so we don't talk about that niche as much.

    My only real-world experience with KAC is the KAC SR-25/M110; I really didn't have a lot of choice, and it was replaced by the SAM-R for a particular role.

    Edited to add, I know less than squat about Hodge, but I know people either love them or loathe them.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
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  27. Variable

    Variable Tactical Badass Life Member

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  28. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    Appears to be a regular AR assembled with nice parts and a mid CHF barrel. Just like many other rifles. V7, Geissele, Zev, etc. Anybody can buy and assemble these parts.

    Not exactly breaking new ground. Just my opinion.
     
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  29. Variable

    Variable Tactical Badass Life Member

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    Well if you could get the Hodge parts maybe. Good luck with that.
     
  30. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    That was an interesting article. So the price is because of unobtanium + one-man band + hand-fitting. But he kinda goes illogical when he says "the level of quality is something that can save a life or not...". While true, it implies what people (his word, "an operator") are getting are of low quality. So the balance he has yet to achieve is finding that point in which you have quantity and quality. Part of it is his use of unobtanium, part of it is his desire to keep everything in-house, part of it is everything is machined to his specs. But he is pricing it out of reach for the people he claims to build for, and he cannot reach a meaningful volume to be impactful.

    I guess the equivalency is Vickers' 1911.

    I totally get the 'if money were no object' and 'if I was king for the day' logic, though, and good on him for building a very nice AR. If he can scale and keep quality control, I imagine someday he could become kinda like Knights. Until then, it's just kind of boutique because they are so unavailable, no?

    Edited to add, I am not saying it isn't a great rifle, quality, etc.; I am sure it is very, very nice.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
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  31. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    But there’s nothing special about those parts.
    There’s other options that equal it or rival it.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2020
  32. Variable

    Variable Tactical Badass Life Member

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    Chuckman:

    Hodge stuff is unobtainable to most of us. As he says, 80% of his stuff is not for the commercial market, it goes elsewhere... His upper, lower and barrel are the parts you cannot get. Pressburg is quoted in a link in that article that Hodge orders the other parts slightly bigger then hand fits them. Quality parts, knowledge of the subject, attention to detail, fit and finish are where any builder can compete. Other companies do a great job too with A LOT more people, I am sure their stuff is just as good. I have listened to some Primary and Secondary Podcasts and i guess Hodge is "a bit" obsessive about AR's and minutia of function and fit. The article doesn't go into that. And by "a bit" i mean uber obsessive. So... its a dude who has upper and lowers made to his own spec with Lithium Aluminum, and had barrels made to his spec by FN, had ALG and others make parts to his spec. Then he puts them together in "his" way. It is one guy.. the article says he has people who help for specific builds, but ill bet he touches each one. He is not a normal dude, kind of a wizard imho. Hodge's cachet adds to the gun.

    When parts of the DoD wanted to improve the M4 with a new upper they bought guns from Hodge first... This was in 2014... Did others copy his ideas since then? People like Pressburg are to be respected, they are not talkers, they have been out there doing very hard things for a very long time - Pressburg likes Hodge guns and KAC. Does Joe Bob at the plinking range need this kind of firearm? Nope. Big bowl of Nope.

    So if you could buy whatever you wanted, money was meaningless to you, would you buy a gun built by Jim Hodge? Do you buy into the mystique?


    V


    For those that care to read some history and back story on Pressburg.
    https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/chuck-pressburg-consulting-ar-15/
     
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  33. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    You can get nicer CHF barrels and nicer Aliminum Lithium receivers. Who cares if you can’t get “his”? Anybody can have somebody make something, then refuse to sell them. That doesn’t make them “better”.


    VSeven has been making aluminum lithium parts for years. They look nicer too.
    That’s probably where he sources his.

    Others have been hand fitting rifles for decades now. Lol. To say nothing of entire in-house designed billet rifles and ALL of their colllective parts.

    He’s a parts assembler. He doesn’t “build” anything. Then he charges 2600$. The “mystique” looks a lot like marketing coolaid.
    In fact the only thing I have seen posted here is marketing material.

    But by all means buy one, lol. Not trying to rain on anybody parade. But it’s a gun forum and discussion should be had.
     
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  34. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    I am sure it’s a nice gun. It’s just nothing new, different, better, or innovative in any way.
     
  35. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    I remember WarSport... Still use a couple of their lowers...
     
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  36. Variable

    Variable Tactical Badass Life Member

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    It was new when he did it i.e. the Aluminum Lithium and yes he had to contract with someone to make it, seems likely it was those making it now... I understand opinions on local internet forums run hot and heavy. That is why my bringing in comments from people like Chuck Pressburg (as his credentials and bona fides are unassailable) to point out what they think on the subject of cheap versus expensive AR's and Hodge in particular. I am presenting people who everyone should respect opinions on the subject. You can do with as you will. But it also allows me to open peoples minds up to a few great websites and people I think are worth learning about. Most people read and do not comment, I am talking to those people as much as anyone else. It can make for interesting search rabbit holes during your self imposed exile.


    V
     
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  37. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless

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    Cool man, respect your opinion.

    At the end of the day, its certainly good stuff.
     
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  38. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    I get what you are saying, I do. Because of these reasons (he's not aiming at a commercial market) and the ones I mentioned, now it's a niche/boutique rifle. Nothing wrong with that, there is a place for those. Maybe at some point he crosses that threshold and makes more rifles obtainable, less expensive.

    FWIW, the DOD tosses bread crumbs to a number of small businesses for R&D work. This is how they end up with KAC and HK products, but I know you know that. Of course certain units get to just buy what they want (trivia time: "Tier 1" does not denote a unit's capabilities a la CAG or DEVGRU, rather it's more of a funding code that not only allocates money but allows those units to pretty much purchase most anything they want).

    I respect what he does and the earned perspective/respect of his colleagues. A man once said "a man with experience trumps a man with an opinion." I have never built an AR because the one time I tried it was an utter failure.

    I like these discussions because I usually leave having learned something; until this thread I had never heard of Hodge, or his rifles.
     
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  39. Hub

    Hub Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    While I'm sure the KAC is very nice and everything it's supposed to be I'm curious about something. It seems like everytime I read about some new AR design one of the criticisms is that it's proprietary and therefore parts aren't readily available on a battlefield, foreign soil or off the beaten path theatre situation, etc. Even if an entire small elite unit is carrying these it stands to reason support for parts would be sparse, why is this one different?
     
  40. bigfelipe

    bigfelipe Phil-osopher... Charter Life Member

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    Shhhh... Just like non-milspec hand-fitted parts on fancy spendy hand-man AR, leave your logical argument out of the conversation...