Ken Hackathorn-The 1 to 5 drill

We are Cooper-Hackathorn-Taylor disciples. All of their drills are based on "COLD" tries. This is a good one. This and The Wizard will keep you busy. When you get to where you can clean these 2 "COLD" on demand, people will walk way around you and tip their hats.[see..that last right there is an attempt at humor]
 
I like that. I'll run it some this week if we get a day without rain.
 
James said:
Can get away with that when you are just shooting targets, have time to spare, and know you wont need that hand for something else. Interesting that he uses a "range" method to release the slide but shoots until empty because counting shots is a "range drill."
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Lol. Okay. Sure buddy.
 
James said:
Can get away with that when you are just shooting targets, have time to spare, and know you wont need that hand for something else. Interesting that he uses a "range" method to release the slide but shoots until empty because counting shots is a "range drill."
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What makes the weak hand method a "range" method? I am interested in your answer.
 
James said:
Can get away with that when you are just shooting targets, have time to spare, and know you wont need that hand for something else. Interesting that he uses a "range" method to release the slide but shoots until empty because counting shots is a "range drill."
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Don't get this argument. at all. The only questions that need to be answered: 1) was the slide open? 2) is the slide now closed? ok, good.
 
James said:
Can get away with that when you are just shooting targets, have time to spare, and know you wont need that hand for something else. Interesting that he uses a "range" method to release the slide but shoots until empty because counting shots is a "range drill."
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You must have some monster hands. I'm a large fella with size "large" hands, and have an extended slide release on my Fusion 1911 match blaster, but it's cumbersome for a lot of folks to release the slide on a 1911 one handed. I do it as a matter of routine on my plastic guns, but not on a 1911.
 
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wvsig said:
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...and a one handed slide release with strong hand thumb to chamber a round on reload is not even discussed. Either method they compare requires both hands.
 
fieldgrade said:
...and a one handed slide release with strong hand thumb to chamber a round on reload is not even discussed. Either method they compare requires both hands.
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They actually discuss it at about 1:15 in the video but then again what do Larry and Super Dave know.... :rolleyes:

 
James said:
My opinions on this topic are geared towards carry/self defense. As far as competition goes, single stack is the only time I'd shoot to slide lock anyhow. Standard slide release, average hands, no problem.



They very clearly discuss it. Vickers says choose the one of the three that makes you comfortable. He says he doesn't recommend strong thumb because sometimes people ride the slide release and lock the slide open. I don't see how riding the slide stop and accidentally locking it open has anything to do with the reload itself and would be a grip/training issue in my opinion.

Why use a slower/less flexible technique if proper training will allow to use a faster/more flexible technique?
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Maybe because it is not universally faster. People with shorter fingers will have to rotate the gun more using the strong hand thumb. So you are talking about a significant number of shooters who might be able to reload the guns faster but will not be in an optimal shooting grip as quickly. Any advantage in speed on the reload is lost because of the rotation of the grip.

I personally fall into this camp. It does not mean I can't use the strong hand thumb. I can and still practice it for the minuscule possibility I have to reload a gun when I have lost use of my weak but for me the weak hand thumb works is consistent and IMHO fast enough. I also practice the slingshot. You seem to be speaking in absolutes which others seem to be avoiding.
 
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NKD said:
The expert has spoken fellas.

The only thing left is to do it his way. After all, 60% of the time, it works every time, for everybody!

View attachment 68639
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You can't argue with the results Sex Panther brings to the table...
 
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James said:
I clearly listed the possible exceptions. I have seen plenty of 5 ft tall 100 lb women trained to use the slide stop on a Glock 22 to know that most men should not have an issue. If you can reach the magazine release you can reach the slide release. Your grip will return optimally with either method and you have to rotate the grip either way.

The key factor is whether you choose to have your left hand tied up into releasing the slide when your right hand can do it.
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So you are are basing your universal truth on a single platform? All guns have a slide lock/release located in the same location as a Glock? Interesting because I just picked up 5 different guns and they all had different locations. Am I missing something. On my 1911s, Sigs, Sphinx, CZs BHPs etc... all seem to have a slide lock/release in a location closer to the muzzle of the gun then the Glock. If we are only talking about Glocks and I only shot Glocks I might agree with you but since that is not the case I guess I am not buying into your universal truth.
 
I do not compete. In the service we used the 1911 and the Beretta, I have used my own 1911, and Glock. Smaller guns not a problem, I do not have big hands so the bigger frames just requires a little extra effort. Honestly, depending on the gun I just switch between different techniques. It's not an issue. People want to make it an issue, do it with your nose if you have to, whatever works, works.
 
The video is about a drill not a slidestop. I'll betcha a dollar that old Ken can close the slide any way it needs done.

Plus, is there any reason to think he's talking about social work when he stresses "shoot it cold"? His comments apply to competition as much as anything else.
 
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Catfish said:
The video is about a drill not a slidestop. I'll betcha a dollar that old Ken can close the slide any way it needs done.

Plus, is there any reason to think he's talking about social work when he stresses "shoot it cold"? His comments apply to competition as much as anything else.
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Ken and Larry both teach using the off/weak hand to release the slide lock. Ken's hands are huge and he certainly can reach the controls on any gun he is shooting but he uses and teaches the off hand slide lock release. Bill Wilson does as well. These guys are not competition oriented trainers. They are defensive oriented trainers which is why @James comments confuse me.



@Catfish I agree that the OP is about a drill but the slide lock reload is a big part of that drill. Executing it properly no matter which technique one chooses to use is important in running that drill. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Bad practice only ingrains bad habits which have to be trained out later.

For me there are two ways to reload after slide lock both have 2 versions.

You can retract the slide and overcome the slide lock.
  • Sling shot method
  • Overhand method
OR

You can release the slide lock.
  • Using your Strong hand thumb
  • Using your Weak hand thumb
Any of these will work. They are not universally "right" or "correct" for all shooters. They all can be used in defensive shooting or competition shooting. IMHO you just need to pick one and train but no matter which one you choose you should understand and practice the others as well.
 
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wvsig said:
Ken and Larry both teach using the off/weak hand to release the slide lock. Ken's hands are huge and ee certainly can reach the controls on any gun he is shooting but he uses and teaches the off hand slide lock release. Bill Wilson does as well. These guys are not competition oriented trainers. They are defensive oriented trainers which is why @James comments confuse me.



@Catfish I agree that the OP is about a drill but the slide lock reload is a big part of that drill. Executing it properly no matter which technique one chooses to use is important in running that drill. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Bad practice only ingrains bad habits which have to be trained out later.

For me there are two ways to reload after slide lock both have 2 versions.

You can retract the slide and overcome the slide lock.
  • Sling shot method
  • Overhand method
OR

You can release the slide lock.
  • Using your Strong hand thumb
  • Using your Weak hand thumb
Any of these will work. They are not universally "right" or "correct" for all shooters. They all can be used in defensive shooting or competition shooting. IMHO you just need to pick one and train but no matter which one you choose you should understand and practice the others as well.
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THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^ any more conversation about this is just that conversation^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
James said:
If you are content tying your left hand up to release the slide because you chose a gun that has a crappy slide release more power to you. If you want to listen to Larry Vicker's advice on using that same method because you can't shoot your gun without prematurely locking the slide back then that is great..do what you need to do. 1911s, BHPs, Smith 3rd gen are all relatively similar to me. Sig was obviously different but I still used the slide lock on it too. There are many situations beyond running full speed at the target, reloading in the open, and sticking your whole face in a porthole that you might want to be prepared for. Just passing that on. Personally, on the odd occasion where I shoot to slide lock before switching to strong hand only, I am glad to be able to do that without having to move my left hand up to release the slide.
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I’m hanging on your every word. Lolz.
 
Good drill for game training. For real world/street...not so much.

Be careful what you do repetitively. It becomes ingrained and when the targets shoot back...it can get you killed.

An interesting little story.

I once was acquainted with a man who knew Charles Askins personally. Not long before he died, while visiting with this guy at him home in Arizona, he asked Askins if he'd like to attend a local "action" type match. All the top shooters would be there. Having never seen one, Askins agreed to go.

He watched intently in silence as each competitor ran his stages. When the games were over, "Joe" asked:

"Well, Charlie. What do you think?"

Askins nodded and replied:

"Looks like a lotta fun. Those boys are shooters...but if those had been real gunfights, there ain't a damn one of would still be alive."
 
Ken Hackathorn is not a gamer, his drills are designed to make you a better defensive pistol shooter. He has trained some of the best gunfighters in the world, U.S. Military Special Operation forces, FBI HRT and friendly foreign military special operations units. Hardly a gamer in the bunch.
 
NKD said:
Uses a weak hand slide release.
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He teaches it in his class too. I tried it for a bit after being shown, but went back to other methods after a bit. I found that on a non-racy 1911 it works well for me vs. strong thumb because I can get better pressure on the tiny and stiff slide release. Slower, but reliable. On a non-1911, strong thumb is cake so I'll stick with that.


So, no Yeager fans here? Drop the slide and then rack the slide again (ejecting the live round to make sure one got chambered)? :)
 
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John Travis said:
Good drill for game training. For real world/street...not so much.

Be careful what you do repetitively. It becomes ingrained and when the targets shoot back...it can get you killed.

An interesting little story.

I once was acquainted with a man who knew Charles Askins personally. Not long before he died, while visiting with this guy at him home in Arizona, he asked Askins if he'd like to attend a local "action" type match. All the top shooters would be there. Having never seen one, Askins agreed to go.

He watched intently in silence as each competitor ran his stages. When the games were over, "Joe" asked:

"Well, Charlie. What do you think?"

Askins nodded and replied:

"Looks like a lotta fun. Those boys are shooters...but if those had been real gunfights, there ain't a damn one of would still be alive."
Click to expand...

I might be considered somewhat of a "gamer" in that I shoot IDPA matches almost every weekend that I can (maybe 40-45 a year), but my interest in the sport grew purely out of interest in defensive pistol shooting. I've attended classes by retired special forces folks and was also able to attend one of Hackathorn's 2.5 day classes recently. He makes it pretty clear up front that his interest is in defense, not gaming.

This is not exactly a challenge because I recognize your long experience with 1911's, but I'd be interested to know which drills or trainers you subscribe to for defensive shooting.
 
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James said:
That's awesome because I live for the approval of gun range ninjas.
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I do not understand this mentality. You gave an opinion on how to do a tactical reload. People disagreed with you and stated logically why they did. Many posted examples of other trainers who teach the same technique that KH used in the drill video to further illustrate their point. Most people engaged in the discussion believe that there is more than one way to skin a cat., except you. Finally once you have not gotten everyone to move over to your side you resort to insults which undermine any legitimacy that your statements might have gained. Seems counter productive. YMMV
 
I don't compete formally very often so my opinion may not matter much to some.

If using the slide release, I feel the strong hand is better. Once the mag is driven home the support hand can be moving into position while the strong hand moves toward the target and releases the slide. I feel this is fastest option.

That being said I personally use the slingshot method because I want to train using as little fine motor skills as possible. Cold, gloved or wet (blood sweat tears) hands will be better using the slingshot and not a slide release. Or, say im being shot at and my adrenaline is through through the roof... I dont want to be looking for a little slide release. Just my $0.02.

At then end of the day, as long as it's a safely executed reload I don't care what anybody does.
 
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fieldgrade said:
I'd be interested to know which drills or trainers you subscribe to for defensive shooting.
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Whoever teaches you to move off the X. Or, just practice that on your own and learn to hit while you're moving toward cover or at least concealment. Whatever you do, never stand still unless you're standing behind something that will stop bullets.

And always remember that you have to get lucky every time he pulls the trigger. He only has to get lucky once. Standing still in the open increases his chances exponentially.

I'd also look for someone who teaches body indexing and point shooting...with one hand and both hands...with one hand making up the bulk of the work.

Lastly, look for somebody who teaches you to work with the body's natural stress response.
 
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James said:
My opinions on this topic are geared towards carry/self defense. As far as competition goes, single stack is the only time I'd shoot to slide lock anyhow. Standard slide release, average hands, no problem. I don't know anybody that carries a 1911 anymore...I quit 20 years ago.



They very clearly discuss it. Vickers says choose the one of the three that makes you comfortable. He says he doesn't recommend strong thumb because sometimes people ride the slide release and lock the slide open. I don't see how riding the slide stop and accidentally locking it open has anything to do with the reload itself and would be a grip/training issue in my opinion.

Why use a slower/less flexible technique if proper training will allow to use a faster/more flexible technique?
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I carry a 1911. Just saying also there are a lot of sig P238s out there.
 
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